6 hours ago, haviet1 said:

Really don't understand the denials in here, Jorgie is a fine midfielder. 

Very interested to hear from Frank what he believes is lacking from Jorgie.

 

Athleticism. 

8 hours ago, Brutos said:

His perfromance today is the difference between a Man and a Boy playing and that was 10 minutes. Hype all the players you want but rhe showed why hes one of the best in his position.

In crucial matches who would I want pulling the strings for me? Jorginho

He had a very good few minutes last night but that is such a lazy comparison!

We could just as easily look back at Jorgino's performances in the home games against West Ham, Southampton and Bournemouth - all of which he started in and all of which we lost and were terrible. Not saying Jorginho alone was responsible for those results, but he certainly wasn't "pulling the strings". 

Lets just accept that BOTH players are decent but both will struggle in games which is why Lamps will continue to make changes and try different things.

Edited July 8, 20206 yr by Nibs

Impotent possession for the last 10 minutes, people say he changed the game. get a grip. we were 3-2 up when he came on.

Hope he gets a run now as he clearly brings a lot of quality to the team.

Hypocrisy at its finest form.  We shouldn't praise Jorgi because it was only 15 minutes performance(let's just pretend he wasn't by far our best player till pandemic happened).

 But Gilmour is unquestionable starter since he had titanic TWO games against weakened Liverpool and Everton(11th in the league) at home. 

Gotta love the double standards here towards the Brits and the foreigners. 

Edited July 8, 20206 yr by Droopy

1 hour ago, coco said:

Impotent possession for the last 10 minutes, people say he changed the game. get a grip. we were 3-2 up when he came on.

He definitely changed the flow of the game though when we were desperately trying to regain some kind of control. He came on and had a big influence. That doesnt mean we should automatically want him to be back in the starting 11 but it is worthy of praise.

1 hour ago, coco said:

Impotent possession for the last 10 minutes, people say he changed the game. get a grip. we were 3-2 up when he came on.

Actually I would say he did, they were in complete control and playing in our half before he came on and for about 10 minutes we could actually string some passes together. But obviously, the last 5 minutes were completely unnacceptable and we were extremely lucky to not concede. 

1 hour ago, Droopy said:

Hypocrisy at its finest form.  We shouldn't praise Jorgi because it was only 15 minutes performance(let's just pretend he wasn't by far our best player till pandemic happened).

 But Gilmour is unquestionable starter since he had titanic TWO games against weakened Liverpool and Everton(11th in the league) at home. 

Gotta love the double standards here towards the Brits and the foreigners. 

It's so apparent isn't it, it's similar to the current political climate towards foreigners.
He came on, took the game by the scruff of the neck and ease the pressure. I would say had it not been for that 10-minute spell we would have ended level, as he changed the tide completely.

1 hour ago, Droopy said:

(let's just pretend he wasn't by far our best player till pandemic happened).

Wait, what was that?

2 hours ago, Droopy said:

Hypocrisy at its finest form.  We shouldn't praise Jorgi because it was only 15 minutes performance(let's just pretend he wasn't by far our best player till pandemic happened).

 But Gilmour is unquestionable starter since he had titanic TWO games against weakened Liverpool and Everton(11th in the league) at home. 

Gotta love the double standards here towards the Brits and the foreigners. 

Weakened Liverpool side? He was up against Fabinho and running at Van Dijk/Gomez. Not to mention Salah, Firmino and Milner all came on when we were winning. 

53 minutes ago, Brutos said:

It's so apparent isn't it, it's similar to the current political climate towards foreigners.
He came on, took the game by the scruff of the neck and ease the pressure. I would say had it not been for that 10-minute spell we would have ended level, as he changed the tide completely.

Ease the pressure? Did you watch the same last 10 minutes as me or not? Palace applying pressure and even hitting the post. 

You're right though, we hate him cus he's Italian... Think you'll find most English people prefer 'foreigners' to Scots, so give over with that lazy argument. 

Jorginho should be playing.  I like Gilmour and he clearly has a future with us, but Jorginho should have started.  Had he started we would have had more control in midfield and Palace wouldn't have had as much possession as they did.  Our midfield was non-existent for large parts.  Barkley should not have started the match.  Lampard loves him though for some reason.  I would have much preferred Jorginho, Gilmour and Mount as the trio in midfield.  If he doesn't start next match it would be a travesty. 

4 hours ago, coco said:

Impotent possession for the last 10 minutes, people say he changed the game. get a grip. we were 3-2 up when he came on.

Harsh.  Palace were all over us and were completely dominating possession.  We could barely hold onto the ball until Jorginho came on.  Not saying it was the greatest 10 minutes in footballing history, but for us in that moment it was the most important ten minutes of the match.  We were lucky not to concede at the end, but I think without the introduction of Jorginho we would have definitely conceded before then.

45 minutes ago, Brutos said:

It's so apparent isn't it, it's similar to the current political climate towards foreigners.
He came on, took the game by the scruff of the neck and ease the pressure. I would say had it not been for that 10-minute spell we would have ended level, as he changed the tide completely.

For me personally it shows how good of a team we have, if Palace had a player like that to come in as a sub they would have scored more goals but they simply lack the squad depth and that's what makes the difference, Lampard can simply afford do experiment since he is managing a far superior squad than Roy Hodgson but tactically we were totally out of our comfort zone.

We were being bullied from 35 minutes on till the point Jorginho came on, those 10 min without him and our defense would be 100% overwhelmed and defeated.

The criticism that people give to Jorginho isn't 100% valid, he does fit in our squad and he is basically the best deep-lying playmaker in the league, yes he isn't the fastest player but overall his qualities overcome his weaknesses by a big margin and stats prove it.
The double standard that I see is that Gilmour is even less physically gifted than Jorginho but that is very rarely addressed, it's ok to have a small frame and to be tiny as long as you're pushed as a homegrown wonder kid. Now I'm not saying that Gilmour shouldn't be encouraged but Jorginho had fans against him very soon after his arrival because he isn't a typical brute in the central midfield.

When he fully transformed the way we play that was seen as nothing special even though he did it in his first season but as soon as someone else does a nice pass once in a full moon he's praised while Jorginho is simply seen as a fraud. Maybe a big factor is because Sarri brought him and according to some, obviously you can't be a Chelsea fan and appreciate Sarri because Sarri left us for Juventus and because of that everything that is connected to Sarri must be removed...Football is still tribal among many people.

Selling Jorginho won't prove that he was a bad player for us it will just beg a simple question, if we did take a step forward, or a step back. Because ever since the break was over we have been struggling with possession and with stability, we score easier but even against lower teams we don't dominate.
Kante has nothing over Jorginho part from having more injuries and being older but Lampard will sell Jorginho instead of letting him work and rotate with Gilmour for a full next season which is a big mistake.

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

yes he isn't the fastest player but overall his qualities overcome his weaknesses by a big margin and stats prove it.

Exactly.  You don't need lightning pace in the position and role he's in.  Pirlo was never fast and even the likes of Beckham when he moved into central midfield was never fast but their vision and passing ability were through the roof and that's why they were so successful there.  Jorginho makes things tick and it means we can dictate the pace of the game with him pulling the strings in midfield.  

35 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Ease the pressure? Did you watch the same last 10 minutes as me or not? Palace applying pressure and even hitting the post. 

You're right though, we hate him cus he's Italian... Think you'll find most English people prefer 'foreigners' to Scots, so give over with that lazy argument. 

A lot of the pressure in stoppage time was somewhat self inflicted by some of the younger players on the pitch, which was mainly down to lack of game management. Pulisic, Reece & RLC were guilty of trying to dribble out and losing the ball when we needed to retain possession or clear our lines to revert to a defensive shape.

Think these are things which should improve through them learning from the experience and luckily for us Palace didnt make us pay. Jorginho I think did well in giving us control of midfield for those 10 minutes as it was vital but once again it was set pieces and Palace flooding our box which caused us all sorts of problems in the last few minutes.

It is difficult to know whether we would have been better if Jorginho had started instead of Gilmour, for me all we can say is that Jorginho changed the flow of the match  in the last 15 mins  (80m + injury time) after a a number of subs for both sides, we could easily have conceded not just one yet two.

I have a feeling that Hodgson said to his wide players, Azpi has no left foot and James is defensively suspect run at them and put crosses into the runners into the box.

Gilmour's forward passing needs some work or he needs forward players to come deeper as twice his forward passes were intercepted, don't think he tried them after this. 

 

7 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Athleticism. 

 

Mount brings athleticism. 

I am sure there's room in the midfield for someone like Jorgie who brings calmness and accuracy to the middle of the pitch. Slow things down a bit when it is needed.

Didn't Mount, Jorgie, and Kovacic had a great run of games in midfield before the break?

 

1 hour ago, Strider6003 said:

It is difficult to know whether we would have been better if Jorginho had started instead of Gilmour, for me all we can say is that Jorginho changed the flow of the match  in the last 15 mins  (80m + injury time) after a a number of subs for both sides, we could easily have conceded not just one yet two.

I have a feeling that Hodgson said to his wide players, Azpi has no left foot and James is defensively suspect run at them and put crosses into the runners into the box.

Gilmour's forward passing needs some work or he needs forward players to come deeper as twice his forward passes were intercepted, don't think he tried them after this. 

 

That will always happen, whoever you play there.

You can play it safe and play a player who never takes risks and just plays the short passes or mainly sideways and backwards. When you look for a player to make the killer passes and open teams up, you hope they will always execute those passes but the reality is, sometimes they go astray or get intercepted. That happened to Gilmour last night and it will happen again but have seen it happen countless times with Kovacic, Jorginho, Fabregas, Barkley, RLC........whoever.

1 hour ago, Nibs said:

That will always happen, whoever you play there.

You can play it safe and play a player who never takes risks and just plays the short passes or mainly sideways and backwards. When you look for a player to make the killer passes and open teams up, you hope they will always execute those passes but the reality is, sometimes they go astray or get intercepted. That happened to Gilmour last night and it will happen again but have seen it happen countless times with Kovacic, Jorginho, Fabregas, Barkley, RLC........whoever.

Exactly, it always amazes me that football fans want midfielders to try killer passe then moan when it doesn't come of every single time. Players like Billy need to have the confidence and allowance to attempt the difficult passes as often that's the only way to break defences open. Even the best like xavi,  Fabregas etc often found passe intercepted or blocked, but it didn't stop them. Try 5 times, make one that gets a goal and its job done. It's the same with strikers who get moaned at because they get caught offside too much as they try to play of the shoulder to beat a defence. They try 5 times and the one time it works they score. 

6 hours ago, dkw said:

He definitely changed the flow of the game though when we were desperately trying to regain some kind of control. He came on and had a big influence. That doesnt mean we should automatically want him to be back in the starting 11 but it is worthy of praise.

Yes just how i would of put it, he didn't turn the game on its head though, just brought a bit of control, which was totally lost in the 5 mins of injury time, so any plaudits for the first 10 minutes of regista almost vanished if not for the paint on the post.

54 minutes ago, coco said:

Yes just how i would of put it, he didn't turn the game on its head though, just brought a bit of control, which was totally lost in the 5 mins of injury time, so any plaudits for the first 10 minutes of regista almost vanished if not for the paint on the post.

Honestly I feel like I watched a different game than some of the posters......Jorginho magically calms the team & controls the game, it's as different as Men Vs Boys etc etc ...really?@?@?

In the last 5 minutes CP got more chances in our box than the entire rest of the game when Gilmour was on.  Post saved us, a Willian block maybe saved us, a Kurt tackle definitely saved us etc etc all in our box. 

I would wager 5 more minutes and we'd have drawn it was that bad in terms of the "control" Jorginho brought.  If you read a transcript of the last 5 minutes it's literally just CP players shooting and it getting blocked, off target, or off the post....and all those chances come in our box....not like Zaha's wonder goal from 30 yards.....right through us and in our box.  Some control.

Now Im not blaming Jorginho for all that, and Im not saying Gilmour was exceptional ( he was below his own standards, but did ok).......but this myth that the game was in huge peril until Jorginho magically saves the day and controls the game.....just rubbish.  Maybe you believe it if you stopped watching at 90 minutes.....but if you watch the entirety of Jorgino's cameo, for atleast a third of it CP absolutely has us on the ropes.  That is where I'd bring out the "it was like watching men vs boys"....and again......we'd be talking about 3 dropped points if not for some backs to the wall defending in our own box, a lucky post, and Zouma.

Jorginho should and will play more but we are just spoiled in midfield right now and they cant all play.....Gilmour deserved this start.... performances of the team with Jorginho was no better, and arguably worse over all than the performance while Gilmour was on the pitch....... and Lampard didn't get it perfect, but he got it right.

 

To be honest, I haven’t seen much from Glimour since Liverpool and Everton games to say he should start over Jorginho. 
 

Jorginho did bring a calmness exactly when we needed it. Thought he was excellent. 
 

I just hope that the club has agreed a deal and that’s why Lampard is using him sparingly. Otherwise it’s a waste of a good player. 

1 hour ago, Barry Bridges said:

Honestly I feel like I watched a different game than some of the posters......Jorginho magically calms the team & controls the game, it's as different as Men Vs Boys etc etc ...really?@?@?

In the last 5 minutes CP got more chances in our box than the entire rest of the game when Gilmour was on.  Post saved us, a Willian block maybe saved us, a Kurt tackle definitely saved us etc etc all in our box. 

I would wager 5 more minutes and we'd have drawn it was that bad in terms of the "control" Jorginho brought.  If you read a transcript of the last 5 minutes it's literally just CP players shooting and it getting blocked, off target, or off the post....and all those chances come in our box....not like Zaha's wonder goal from 30 yards.....right through us and in our box.  Some control.

When Zaha got to the ball and took a free shot and scored, Billy was nowhere near where he should be, it was Zaha and our back-line. The tactics clearly left tons of space for Palace but if we ignore that bit we could say that it was obviously Gilmour that had no control over his own area, I mean look he wasn't even there right?

I wonder if you would say the same thing and have the same attitude if that was Gilmour coming on for Jorginho in min 80' and making us have 80% possession out of the blue, would you be saying this exact comment towards Gilmour, mr.Bridges?

I guess Jorginho should have marked Benteke and do the job of Christensen/Zouma, he should have also cleared that far post cross that Azpilicueta doesn't know how to deal with as well since it's obviously the first time someone puts in a cross there against us...I guess he will just never be good enough for ChelseaFans.

25 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

When Zaha got to the ball and took a free shot and scored, Billy was nowhere near where he should be, it was Zaha and our back-line. The tactics clearly left tons of space for Palace but if we ignore that bit we could say that it was obviously Gilmour that had no control over his own area, I mean look he wasn't even there right?

I wonder if you would say the same thing and have the same attitude if that was Gilmour coming on for Jorginho in min 80' and making us have 80% possession out of the blue, would you be saying this exact comment towards Gilmour, mr.Bridges?

I guess Jorginho should have marked Benteke and do the job of Christensen/Zouma, he should have also cleared that far post cross that Azpilicueta doesn't know how to deal with as well since it's obviously the first time someone puts in a cross there against us...I guess he will just never be good enough for ChelseaFans.

Difference is, Gilmour is just 19 and has played a handful of games in the PL and is still learning.

Jorginho is 28 and meant to be experienced and playing at his peak.

9 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Difference is, Gilmour is just 19 and has played a handful of games in the PL and is still learning.

Jorginho is 28 and meant to be experienced and playing at his peak.

So where exactly is he failing? For 10+ minutes he did his job.