Poch definitely has to shoulder some of the blame, but on the other side of it he can't control the players not being able to convert straight forward chances, we could have scored 3 or 4 yesterday but again we were let down. It's all well and good saying he picks the players but we haven't had the players available to drop Jackson and Sterling but going forward with the players coming back he has to.

For the cup game I'd definitely be dropping Sterling, Gallagher and Jackson for Broja, Madueke and Palmer and I'd certainly drop this Colwill at left back experiment, I can't get my head around having three left backs on the bench and playing a CB there.

13 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

Not at all. Pep had struggles initially with a city team that had Aguero, KDB and Yaya Toure. Klopp struggled with a Liverpool squad littered with experience. Imagine still that they'd lost 12 players, 5 of them starters. Why would you think these would fair any better with this group? We are actually very much in control of most of our games, give away few chances, and our metrics back this up.

I won't lie and say I'm not fuming at the results and efforts in the final third. But generally I'm happy with what I'm seeing ***given the state of the squad. I will not judge Poch critically until I've seen him after some time and with a squad near its peak condition. i.e. the exact same that was said of Pep, Klopp and Arteta.

I don't follow stats so excuse me if I find this hard to believe simply going off the eye test. You say we give up few chances but Villa must have had double digits in shots yesterday.  We do not pin teams back for the majority of the game and pass them to death like we did towards the end of Potter reign. 

We may have similar possession stats if thats what you mean by stats but that does not mean we have the same amount of control over a game. I mean we were having a back and forth match agaisnt Bournemouth like it was a relegation 6 pointer. Under a Pep or Enrique that simply does not happen. I am not saying we would win every game with them, cause yes the team is still largely of poor quality, but simply by pinning teams back for large spells of the game we will give up less chances to concede goals. Is it boring? Yes but if you can't score then at the very least keep the ball and don't concede. 

MOTD showed that our conversion rate is 5.5% and 15 big chances missed - the worst in the league. They said the rest of the performance and team actually looks pretty good. 
 

It’s painful watching us and seeing the poor results but it will take time. We’re playing better since Poch has come in despite not getting the results. 
 

It’s going to take some time, we will need to be patient. Something we haven’t been used to with Roman. The Roman model was great but it was eventually found out and football has moved on. 
 

We’ve seen some positive signs so we just need to keep going and take it. 

4 minutes ago, JM7 said:

MOTD showed that our conversion rate is 5.5% and 15 big chances missed - the worst in the league. They said the rest of the performance and team actually looks pretty good. 
 

It’s painful watching us and seeing the poor results but it will take time. We’re playing better since Poch has come in despite not getting the results. 
 

It’s going to take some time, we will need to be patient. Something we haven’t been used to with Roman. The Roman model was great but it was eventually found out and football has moved on. 
 

We’ve seen some positive signs so we just need to keep going and take it. 

It's criminal the amount of chances we miss; we should have won against Liverpool and West Ham if we converted our chances. Yesterday, how we didn't score, how the football gods know.  We need patience, no kneejerk reaction, as it will only continue the decline. 

Arsenal's support of Arteta is a perfect example. Had they followed the loud fans, they would have reset again. 

26 minutes ago, El regreso said:

It's criminal the amount of chances we miss; we should have won against Liverpool and West Ham if we converted our chances. Yesterday, how we didn't score, how the football gods know.  We need patience, no kneejerk reaction, as it will only continue the decline. 

Arsenal's support of Arteta is a perfect example. Had they followed the loud fans, they would have reset again. 

Quite simple really. The majority of the chances we make are not of high quality. They are half chances, deflections, ball played too late, played too heavy, taking shots from bad angles cause no other options available, etc.

For all the shots we had yesterday, only 3 chances were ones I would expect us to do better with. The pass from Mudyrk to Jackson, the cutback from Gusto to Enzo and the Chilwell shot at the last few mins. Unfortunately, 2 of those chances fell to the wrong people but if we develop the system to create more of those type of chances we will fair a lot better. 

 

Edited September 25, 20232 yr by Remodez

6 minutes ago, Remodez said:

Quite simple really. The majority of the chances we make are not of high quality. They are half chances, deflections, ball played too late, played too heavy, taking shots from bad angles cause no other options available, etc.

For all the shots we had yesterday, only 3 chances were ones I would expect us to do better with. The pass from Mudyrk to Jackson, the cutback from Gusto to Enzo and the Chilwell shot at the last few mins. Unfortunately, 2 of those chances fell to the wrong people but if we develop the system to create more of those type of chances we will fair a lot better. 

 

Aston Villa's chance was more challenging than all you mentioned, yet they scored.

2 minutes ago, El regreso said:

Aston Villa's chance was more challenging than all you mentioned, yet they scored.

We don't have the same caliber of striker as Villa so we need to work harder on better chance creation. 

45 minutes ago, Remodez said:

I don't follow stats so excuse me if I find this hard to believe simply going off the eye test. You say we give up few chances but Villa must have had double digits in shots yesterday.  We do not pin teams back for the majority of the game and pass them to death like we did towards the end of Potter reign. 

We may have similar possession stats if thats what you mean by stats but that does not mean we have the same amount of control over a game. I mean we were having a back and forth match agaisnt Bournemouth like it was a relegation 6 pointer. Under a Pep or Enrique that simply does not happen. I am not saying we would win every game with them, cause yes the team is still largely of poor quality, but simply by pinning teams back for large spells of the game we will give up less chances to concede goals. Is it boring? Yes but if you can't score then at the very least keep the ball and don't concede. 

You don't need to believe anything. Stats are available for you if you seek them. Also the problem with the eye test is that many people have no clue what they're talking about. Stats, not perfect in isolation, but at least innately consistent.

As someone with a passion for stats and football, if you showed me the data (plus some others) on those first 4 games and told me it's with a young, depleted squad - I would be amazed.

We give up few chances, every shot on goal is not a chance/big chance. This is evident with the eye test over 6 games and backed by data. And you should contextualise what happened after when we were down to 10.

You simply do not have the highest possession stats in the league without have good control over games. That says nothing about how effective your control is though, but the point being that what we've seen has been largely positive. Let's not underestimate how much injuries and diabolical finishing have affected our performances. And when we eventually see some measure of normality with both and have improved results, you'll have people proclaiming how the performances are drastically different, as if by magic...

3 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

You don't need to believe anything. Stats are available for you if you seek them. Also the problem with the eye test is that many people have no clue what they're talking about. Stats, not perfect in isolation, but at least innately consistent.

As someone with a passion for stats and football, if you showed me the data (plus some others) on those first 4 games and told me it's with a young, depleted squad - I would be amazed.

We give up few chances, every shot on goal is not a chance/big chance. This is evident with the eye test over 6 games and backed by data. And you should contextualise what happened after when we were down to 10.

You simply do not have the highest possession stats in the league without have good control over games. That says nothing about how effective your control is though, but the point being that what we've seen has been largely positive. Let's not underestimate how much injuries and diabolical finishing have affected our performances. And when we eventually see some measure of normality with both and have improved results, you'll have people proclaiming how the performances are drastically different, as if by magic...

That conversation rate would require extra hours on the training field to help them finish their chances. You come early, you leave late.

1 hour ago, venom2011 said:

Would you care to name a few of these countless managers that are gettable and proven better than Poch with a young squad?

Yes i wasn't focussing on the managers part actually as i don't think that Poch is necessarily the issue. It was more the fact that i was trying to highlight that there is a stylised view by the hierarchy of the club of what the playing staff and backroom staff shoudl eb which doesn't seem to be grounded in any foundation of content. It all just seems a bit fashionable and immediate without actually focussing upon integrity, experience etc. I don't want us getting another manager, whether its RDZ, Enrique, Flick or any others on the current menu, becuase i don't think it would make any difference.

Seeign that Bruno Saltor has now gone continues to unnerve me regarding the decision making and knee-jerkism that appears evident here. A guy taht stayed on after Potter, did one game for us and then was dispensed with. Then identifed as an old colleague and friend of Poch, returns to resume coaching dutires as his coaching credentials are obvisouly recognised, to then, in a matter of two months, to be gone agai, makes me, and probably many others, wondering whether we are actually out of control at this point and hurtling towards some sort of reckoning.

23 minutes ago, Remodez said:

Quite simple really. The majority of the chances we make are not of high quality. They are half chances, deflections, ball played too late, played too heavy, taking shots from bad angles cause no other options available, etc.

For all the shots we had yesterday, only 3 chances were ones I would expect us to do better with. The pass from Mudyrk to Jackson, the cutback from Gusto to Enzo and the Chilwell shot at the last few mins. Unfortunately, 2 of those chances fell to the wrong people but if we develop the system to create more of those type of chances we will fair a lot better. 

 

The data on our big chances created says otherwise. Big chances are not half chances. You only expected us to do better better with 3 chances - was the Sterling Jackson 2vkeeper a myth? And you only need to see the chances missed by Jackson, Enzo, Sterling, Chilwell, Palmer yesterday. Those are not low quality, half chances and to have 5 big chances in a game is more than most teams create. 

5 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

The data on our big chances created says otherwise. Big chances are not half chances. You only expected us to do better better with 3 chances - was the Sterling Jackson 2vkeeper a myth? And you only need to see the chances missed by Jackson, Enzo, Sterling, Chilwell, Palmer yesterday. Those are not low quality, half chances and to have 5 big chances in a game is more than most teams create. 

That's still 1 big chance for Sterling and Jackson for the duration of the whole match at home, one per player. We had 4 shots on target, 2 of those came from those 2 at the very least, actually not at the very least, both Jackson and Sterling had only 1 shot taken, so we expect our strikers to be clinical like no other in order to win a match.

Haaland scored already more than 5 goals but he also already has more than 5 big chances missed, our strikers don't get enough chances.

Edited September 25, 20232 yr by Gol15

I hate all this XYZ Board members have entered the dressing room after the game! Just let the manager do his job!

How many times was there a story of Roman doing that in 20 years? Most of that was celebrating a trophy win after the game!

You can already clearly see a change in Poch’s body language as we get deeper into the season, he looked lost yesterday much like the players, and clearly needs a good nights sleep.

What’s the point of a manager if the board want involvement in our actual football and are there to slap all their wrists after the game.

We've missed chances.

 

Poch isnt getting the best out of the squad because he's not playing players in their best positions. 

End of story.

 

Perhaps now with Gusto injured we get Disasi at right back, Chilwell left back and Mykky left wing.

I have not quoted anyone as i just wasnted to ask a general and genuine question as I have seen a number of posts and references.

Can somebody set out what the Roman era, the Roman way, the Roman model actually was and why things are so different now.

I can see that we spent a lot of money on players, i can see that the club was in debt to the owner, i can see that if results were not acceptable manager's did lose their jobs. What i can't work out is a) why Roman's tenure was so bad for us and b) what is so different today.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

That's still 1 big chance for Sterling and Jackson for the duration of the whole match at home, one per player. We had 4 shots on target, 2 of those came from those 2 at the very least, actually not at the very least, both Jackson and Sterling had only 1 shot taken, so we expect our strikers to be clinical like no other in order to win a match.

Haaland scored already more than 5 goals but he also already has more than 5 big chances missed, our strikers don't get enough chances.

The only teams to have created more big chances than us in the league are Spurs, Brighton, Newcastle and Liverpool.

We've created the same amount of big chances as City, yet they've almost scored 3x as many goals. The finishing is clearly the issue, not the creation. 

Fulham are 3 places above us with 3 more points have created 1/3 amount of big chances as us.

I'm always surprised when footballers can't finish chances. I mean how much training do you need to put the ball in the back of the net? It's very strange. Firing Pochettino is not going to help with any progress that has been made through a whole pre-season. I'd rather we stick in there with Poch because A. There are no better options currently and B. He needs time to mould the team.

We have been unfortunate with a bunch of injuries (not Poch's fault) to key players again and that's frustrating because trying to keep a consistent 11 is always being affected. Most of the top teams have a consistent 11 minus an injury here and there. Not to mention Brighton, Newcastle, Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Utd have all been together at least a season. Poch had us performing well during pre-season and now we are only a few games into the season. 

Edited September 25, 20232 yr by enigma

24 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

The only teams to have created more big chances than us in the league are Spurs, Brighton, Newcastle and Liverpool.

We've created the same amount of big chances as City, yet they've almost scored 3x as many goals. The finishing is clearly the issue, not the creation. 

Fulham are 3 places above us with 3 more points have created 1/3 amount of big chances as us.

Jackson had 1 shot in total yesterday. He has 7 big chances missed in 6 matches and a goal scored, if he had scored all of his chances he would be breaking records of efficiency since he's not getting enough chances. Because, we are not creating enough.

When he had 5 shots taken in a match, 3 of them were on target and he scored. That's your typical striker that scores from every 3rd chance which most managers would be happy about, he had only one such match vs Luton.

Haaland had missed even more big chances than Jackson, the difference is the team around him and the setup.

31 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

The only teams to have created more big chances than us in the league are Spurs, Brighton, Newcastle and Liverpool.

We've created the same amount of big chances as City, yet they've almost scored 3x as many goals. The finishing is clearly the issue, not the creation. 

Fulham are 3 places above us with 3 more points have created 1/3 amount of big chances as us.

Finishing is clearly the issue, but then if you KNOW that your forwards aren't very clinical then surely you need to maximise their chances of scoring by giving them as many chances as possible ? I'd like to see us trying for 20+ shots in every game, of which at least 8 on target. If their keeper makes 8 saves then fair play to him. I'd expect 2 goals from 8 shots on target though, given that the very best keepers are saving 75% or so.

Haaland missed 3 shots before he found the back of the net the other day. The quality of our chances created is a fair argument. 

36 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

The only teams to have created more big chances than us in the league are Spurs, Brighton, Newcastle and Liverpool.

We've created the same amount of big chances as City, yet they've almost scored 3x as many goals. The finishing is clearly the issue, not the creation. 

Fulham are 3 places above us with 3 more points have created 1/3 amount of big chances as us.

But this precisely my point.

We already know finishing is an issue with the squad, has been for years. Knowing that you need to develop a system that creates higher quality chances for the striker/attackers. A lot of Jackson's shots are first time, him reacting to a sudden change of event, a bad pass, deflection, etc, rather than him having time to sit and think about what corner to put it in. The pass from Mudyrk yesterday was the first clear cut chance he should have buried in what feels like forever. 

7 minutes ago, Remodez said:

But this precisely my point.

We already know finishing is an issue with the squad, has been for years. Knowing that you need to develop a system that creates higher quality chances for the striker/attackers. A lot of Jackson's shots are first time, him reacting to a sudden change of event, a bad pass, deflection, etc, rather than him having time to sit and think about what corner to put it in. The pass from Mudyrk yesterday was the first clear cut chance he should have buried in what feels like forever. 

And even that chance is 50% due to his own movement and making that run, he and Mudryk play well together in general but the point is that even for that chance Jackson had to invent it himself a bit too he gets nothing for free from the rest of the team.

1 hour ago, venom2011 said:

The data on our big chances created says otherwise. Big chances are not half chances. You only expected us to do better better with 3 chances - was the Sterling Jackson 2vkeeper a myth? And you only need to see the chances missed by Jackson, Enzo, Sterling, Chilwell, Palmer yesterday. Those are not low quality, half chances and to have 5 big chances in a game is more than most teams create. 

I would be very interested in seeing which chances from our games so far the PL/Opta classified as big chances cause I'm fairly confident that if I was to compare it to lets say Brighton's big chances the quality of those chances would be very different. A big chance with a 60% expectancy of scoring is different from one with a 90% expectancy.

27 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Jackson had 1 shot in total yesterday. He has 7 big chances missed in 6 matches and a goal scored, if he had scored all of his chances he would be breaking records of efficiency since he's not getting enough chances. Because, we are not creating enough.

When he had 5 shots taken in a match, 3 of them were on target and he scored. That's your typical striker that scores from every 3rd chance which most managers would be happy about, he had only one such match vs Luton.

Haaland had missed even more big chances than Jackson, the difference is the team around him and the setup.

If he had one shot that's on him. He's unlikely to get many easier chances than the sitter against Forest, the back post header against West Ham, not to mention the one Mudryk gave him on a plate 1 on 1 yesterday. Then there was Mudryk's ball across the face of goal where a ST was nowhere to be seen. 

Have you not seen Jackson run head down into defenders in the box? Most normal strikers shoot on sight. 

You keep banging on about Haaland, yet we've created the same amount of big chances as City. 

We've played 29 Premier League games in 2023 and won 5.   

 

Luton

Bournemouth

Leicester

Leeds

Palace.