Caicedo is 22 and Enzo is 23. The other midfielders in our squad are even younger.

Let's have a bit of perspective ... 

Where were some of our celebrated midfield alumni at a similar age ?

Lampard had just joined Chelsea, and it was only in his third season with us that he hit double figures of goals, and subsequently developed into the free-scoring midfielder that eventually became our record scorer.

Makelele was playing at Nantes. It would be 5 more seasons before Real Madrid came calling.

Ballack had just left Kaiserslautern for Leverkeusen. Bayern moved for him 3 years after that, when he was 26.

Matic had just been sold by Chelsea to Benfica for £1m. We would buy him back 3 seasons later, when he was deemed "ready" for the PL.

N'golo Kante was learning his trade at Caen. At 25 he signed for Leicester. And then for us a year after that.

 

Anyone see a pattern of development here ? 

Time to cut the players some slack, and the manager too come to that ... 

 

 

 

 

Caicedo can be the new Kante under PochettinoBy Alex Keble 18 Aug 2023

Anybody who watched Chelsea's 1-1 draw with Liverpool will have noticed what the two managers were missing...

His destructive qualities should perfectly compliment Enzo Fernandez, allowing the Argentinian to play higher up the pitch in a box-to-box No 8 role, as we saw against Liverpool.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bebe1980 said:

 

Caicedo can be the new Kante under PochettinoBy Alex Keble 18 Aug 2023

Anybody who watched Chelsea's 1-1 draw with Liverpool will have noticed what the two managers were missing...

His destructive qualities should perfectly compliment Enzo Fernandez, allowing the Argentinian to play higher up the pitch in a box-to-box No 8 role, as we saw against Liverpool.

 

 

God no.. and we wonder why we lost. He isn’t a box2box player.

3 hours ago, ducavis said:

God no.. and we wonder why we lost. He isn’t a box2box player.

Apparently he was last year

I think a lof of people have this overhyped perception of our player. 

Caicedo is very good but he is not Kante.

Enzo is not fabregas nor he is jorgi. On the ball Enzo is already elite. He can make any pass in any tempo. However, unlike cesc or jorgi his understanding on how to play position is lacking though. When to go fast, when to go short, where the ball need to go, where do I need to be offensively and his defensive understanding is 😵‍💫😵‍💫.

A lot of people will say this is where you need coaching, yes but coaching is not magic. Kova off ball defense was horrific under Lamp and after 2 years under TT, it was still horrific. You need coaching, you need experience but eventually it really depends on the player himself. 

 

Overpaid on both players by £100m+, both very talented players. But shouldn't have to deal with the price tag hanging over their heads yet they do thanks to us overpaying.

The idea you have to pay £100m for Enzo in the first instance is ludicrous we didn't need him we wanted him. Then the idea you need to pay another £100m to unlock Enzo in the form of Caicedo is again ludicrous.

They are good players, but I don't believe the current tactical set up allows them to thrive. If they were played a pivot surrounded by our best other 9 players in the squad assuming full fitness then maybe we would see a difference.

 

                                  Petrovic 

James          Fofana            Disasi    Chilwell 

                      Caicedo           Enzo 

    Sterling                 Palmer              Nkunku 

                                Jackson 

For me this gets the best out of every single player in the starting lineup I believe this will be his settled team once (if ever) they are all fit.  We haven't seen more than 6/11 of these play together at the same time all season. 

 

Edited February 3, 20242 yr by LongtimerLurker

https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news/chelsea/chelsea-players-deactivate-social-media-424062-20240203

I think they are nowhere near as bad as the media would make you think.

A proper striker and we’d be up there challenging for the top 4, just think of the matches where we’ve bossed it, missed chances and ended up losing eventually because we can’t get that first goal of the match, Brentford, Forest, Wolves, Villa etc..

We should have at least 4 more wins than we have got.

Also as a few others have said I think they haven’t been set up to thrive, they are good players but Poch needs to tweak things.

As the price tag, they didn’t set the price and it’s done now, they are young men constantly reminded by the media they are not worth £100m.

They are doing ok all things considered IMO.

Don’t let sections of the media, ex footballers turned pundits (who were average players themselves) or Talksport influence your opinion.

20 hours ago, olderschoolcfc said:

Chelsea FC Groundhog Day. 

After hiring just about every manager possible under Roman, Chelsea have actually increased their manager turnover under their new owners. four managers in two seasons. 

Players have been signed over a 18 month window - the current manager has overseen one of those and faces a battle to keep one of the players he wants in his starting side. 

the recruitment has been nothing short of diabolical, players signed for tens of millions more than their value, players signed for no other reason then signing players. Im delighted we've not bought anyone this January. 

Fans, who talk up a great game of patience and a squad in development and transition, upon appointing a development manager, literally dont have the patience to give a manager one entire season before the knives are out for. It usually takes a few dodgy results and polls appear online asking if the current manager should be sacked.

 

Folks, poch needs to be here for the duration of his contract. we won't look this bad next year and despite some pretty poor results, we're doing ok. Poch may even get a couple of signings he actually wants. 

Welcome to the post success hangover... Look at united, the same will happen to Liverpool after Klopp, and city when Pep goes. Transition is painful, but without it, the success and joy wouldn't be as fun. We just have to take different joy from the games now as opposed to the winning machine we used to be. For me, I just want the players to give all and leave it all on the pitch. to show they care and are trying. This is essentially a youth team, everyone needs to significantly lower the bar of expectation because you're all just going to be disappointed day after day after day until this side actually is broken up and replaced or it gels, clicks and we fly up the league. 

But it's miserable reading round here after a loss. 

Fully understood what you posted and under normal circumstances I can certainly see where the Clearlake plan was going and while many of us had a great deal of patience at the start, regardless of the losses, there literally has been little to no progress IMO and I don't mean in the win column.  There is no distinguishing pattern of play, no style of play and certainly no identity of the way we want to play...Ange goes into Spurs and immediately imposed his style of play; Klopp / Pep the same thing, even Arteta, albeit after some while, got the team playing the way he wanted.   I see no identity with our team unless you include ' a Sunday Pub team' although that might be harsh on the pub team that might only get together on match day. 

Yes we more than our fair share of injuries and yes, and Potch has had to play some players out of position, but Enzo and Caicedo have been his pick week after week bar a couple of games when both were injured.  This was supposed to be the one of the most dynamic midfield pairings in the league and its turning into a sh*t show, with both being over run and very little understanding of how they are supposed to be playing together, and that comes down to the manager and his tactics.  He's been here 6 months and we are in the same stage of development as we were in day 1; but there again I'm only an armchair fan now not an EPL manager.

As an old fart, I have patience, but my patience is certainly being tested.  Rome wasn't built in a day and perhaps we will see progress when all the players return from injury, but our Manager is certainly skating on thin ice if this continues as the investors won't put up with seeing little  to no progress for another season; a League Cup win might be he's only life line but given our last run in with Liverpool that's highly doubtful.

53 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

Fully understood what you posted and under normal circumstances I can certainly see where the Clearlake plan was going and while many of us had a great deal of patience at the start, regardless of the losses, there literally has been little to no progress IMO and I don't mean in the win column.  There is no distinguishing pattern of play, no style of play and certainly no identity of the way we want to play...Ange goes into Spurs and immediately imposed his style of play; Klopp / Pep the same thing, even Arteta, albeit after some while, got the team playing the way he wanted.   I see no identity with our team unless you include ' a Sunday Pub team' although that might be harsh on the pub team that might only get together on match day. 

Yes we more than our fair share of injuries and yes, and Potch has had to play some players out of position, but Enzo and Caicedo have been his pick week after week bar a couple of games when both were injured.  This was supposed to be the one of the most dynamic midfield pairings in the league and its turning into a sh*t show, with both being over run and very little understanding of how they are supposed to be playing together, and that comes down to the manager and his tactics.  He's been here 6 months and we are in the same stage of development as we were in day 1; but there again I'm only an armchair fan now not an EPL manager.

As an old fart, I have patience, but my patience is certainly being tested.  Rome wasn't built in a day and perhaps we will see progress when all the players return from injury, but our Manager is certainly skating on thin ice if this continues as the investors won't put up with seeing little  to no progress for another season; a League Cup win might be he's only life line but given our last run in with Liverpool that's highly doubtful.

1. 4 managers in two seasons. Where was the patience for Potter? zero, including myself after that Southampton game. team relegated... Poch has been at the club six months and unless you're the special one in your first season, it takes time to bed in a side and get things moving the way you want. Regardless of whether I like poch or not. I want him to see out his contract, if not just to sort this side out and add stability. Plus, im not sure who else out there will fit our profile. 

2. Injuries have been cruel to us. however Lets suppose really good players, intelligent players can work out what the strengths and weaknesses of each others games are and develop a system on the pitch between themselves. A manager can't be expected to get players to gel on a pitch, they have to do that. If theyre being asked to jobs that theyre not supposed to then I would understand criticism of the managers tactics but im not sure why two midfielders are not locking down the opposition. 

3. Investors dont care... they only look at what they will earn from it. The mens game is worth billions, when the women's game is incentivised like the mens and starts pulling in mega money, the club will be profitable by just being in the leagues and raking in TV monies from both sides. Investors of the Train network dont care about punctuality, Water bosses dont care about water leakages or dumping sewage in rivers, Plane companies dont care about emissions... they care about dividend payouts. 

4. Who were you a manager of in the EPL?

Yeah, reckon the Liverpool Side that did us will be the same in the final and do us there, but who knows, Tuchel wasn't supposed to win the big one and did. 

 

So sad if they had to delete twitter accounts due to abuse these are the times we live in..  we create tools for good use them for evil..

the worst part is some of them will be teens who can barely wash their underpants but will go online and abuse players ..

i am no psychologist but clearly there needs to be some regulation on hate spreading platforms like X.. as for these two I can only sympathise with them.. but shame on those folks hating on them who would sh*t themselves if they had to face them in real life.. cowards..

power to the duo.. KTBFFH!!

They may be young but I assume they were purchased for so much B & M  to become the bedrock of Chelsea’s midfield for the next decade of success ?

NO ! 

Enzo bought bc he won the WC. Nothing more. Media howled about how he’d go for even more loot the next window and all the big heads were sniffing around him. Bully took the bait. 

Caicedo - can’t currently and not much hope he ever will hold a 🕯️ to the likes of Maka, Mikel, Essien &. Kante . Ever s clocked Storage Wars on the telly ?  Well John Henry has 😂

18 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Caicedo is 22 and Enzo is 23. The other midfielders in our squad are even younger.

Let's have a bit of perspective ... 

Where were some of our celebrated midfield alumni at a similar age ?

Lampard had just joined Chelsea, and it was only in his third season with us that he hit double figures of goals, and subsequently developed into the free-scoring midfielder that eventually became our record scorer.

Makelele was playing at Nantes. It would be 5 more seasons before Real Madrid came calling.

Ballack had just left Kaiserslautern for Leverkeusen. Bayern moved for him 3 years after that, when he was 26.

Matic had just been sold by Chelsea to Benfica for £1m. We would buy him back 3 seasons later, when he was deemed "ready" for the PL.

N'golo Kante was learning his trade at Caen. At 25 he signed for Leicester. And then for us a year after that.

 

Anyone see a pattern of development here ? 

Time to cut the players some slack, and the manager too come to that ... 

 

 

 

None of the players you mention cost the club £100m +. A lot of the criticism is whether they warrant that price tag and its being proven to weigh heavily on their shoulders, For that amount of money, fans expect a lot more., ready made midfilders not players who will take two or three years to reach their potential. Rice and Bellingham have improved their teams. why not Enzo and Caciedo!

3 minutes ago, Edjmendy said:

None of the players you mention cost the club £100m +. A lot of the criticism is whether they warrant that price tag and its being proven to weigh heavily on their shoulders, For that amount of money, fans expect a lot more., ready made midfilders not players who will take two or three years to reach their potential. Rice and Bellingham have improved their teams. why not Enzo and Caciedo!

Honestly you just have to look past the price tag.

Yes we overpaid, probably double (or more) what they were worth. The selling clubs had all the power though. Benfica didn't want to (or need to) sell Enzo unless they got a massive fee, and similarly for Brighton with Caicedo, plus on that one we were in a bidding war with Liverpool who were also prepared to spend big to get him. 

Rice is 25 and a lot further along in his career than Enzo and Caicedo, and Bellingham, fair enough ... but he is a bit of a freak for his age ... the exception rather than the rule. Jude would never have signed for us anyway ... 

If you want to blame anyone, then it's on the owners. The players are probably exactly where you'd expect them to be at this stage of their career. 

35 minutes ago, Edjmendy said:

Rice and Bellingham have improved their teams.

You may want to check where Arsenal are compared to this time last year with Partey.

Would be hard for most players to have a positive effect on that Arsenal team when you have Havertz brought in to play in a midfield 3. One of the very few good bits of  transfers done in the last year by Chelsea.

If Lavia had been fit and been able to be a solid DM I do wonder how well them as a midfield 3 would have done.

Think it would have made a huge difference to our control of games and defence. 

5 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Honestly you just have to look past the price tag.

Yes we overpaid, probably double (or more) what they were worth. The selling clubs had all the power though. Benfica didn't want to (or need to) sell Enzo unless they got a massive fee, and similarly for Brighton with Caicedo, plus on that one we were in a bidding war with Liverpool who were also prepared to spend big to get him. 

Rice is 25 and a lot further along in his career than Enzo and Caicedo, and Bellingham, fair enough ... but he is a bit of a freak for his age ... the exception rather than the rule. Jude would never have signed for us anyway ... 

If you want to blame anyone, then it's on the owners. The players are probably exactly where you'd expect them to be at this stage of their career. 

But how do you feel if you're Connor Gallagher, who's only on £50k/week (😁), and you're playing alongside these two on over £150k/week ???

Difficult to build a team with disparities like that, not to mention Raheem!

Before this thread become Enzo bashing, Enzo is crazy talented. He can be a Modric or a fabregas. Basically the best midfielder in the world. 

However his game is not mature and that will take time. We have many player who need time and experience to get better who is given starter minutes. This usually doesn't happen in big team but that is the reality. 

Btw that is Enzo, Caicedo on the other hand, his game is more mature, there is nothing wrong with him. 

Edited February 4, 20242 yr by Bob stark

On 03/02/2024 at 01:37, Sexyfootball said:

Caicedo is 22 and Enzo is 23. The other midfielders in our squad are even younger.

Let's have a bit of perspective ... 

Where were some of our celebrated midfield alumni at a similar age ?

Lampard had just joined Chelsea, and it was only in his third season with us that he hit double figures of goals, and subsequently developed into the free-scoring midfielder that eventually became our record scorer.

Makelele was playing at Nantes. It would be 5 more seasons before Real Madrid came calling.

Ballack had just left Kaiserslautern for Leverkeusen. Bayern moved for him 3 years after that, when he was 26.

Matic had just been sold by Chelsea to Benfica for £1m. We would buy him back 3 seasons later, when he was deemed "ready" for the PL.

N'golo Kante was learning his trade at Caen. At 25 he signed for Leicester. And then for us a year after that.

 

Anyone see a pattern of development here ? 

Time to cut the players some slack, and the manager too come to that ... 

 

 

 

I agree with most of that, but I don't think we paid over £100 million for each player in order to wait a few seasons for them to develop?

 

18 hours ago, Jangz said:

So sad if they had to delete twitter accounts due to abuse these are the times we live in..  we create tools for good use them for evil..

the worst part is some of them will be teens who can barely wash their underpants but will go online and abuse players ..

i am no psychologist but clearly there needs to be some regulation on hate spreading platforms like X.. as for these two I can only sympathise with them.. but shame on those folks hating on them who would sh*t themselves if they had to face them in real life.. cowards..

power to the duo.. KTBFFH!!

I honestly don't understand it all.

I came off twitter years ago , it's a load of hate . And football players seem to have thousands of followers and hundreds of not thousands of comments directed at them. I can't believe ANYONE , let alone a millionaire football player has the patience to sit there reading through the lot of them anyway,  or do they ?

I didn't even have the patience to read a dozen tweets !

9 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Before this thread become Enzo bashing, Enzo is crazy talented. He can be a Modric or a fabregas. Basically the best midfielder in the world. 

However his game is not mature and that will take time. We have many player who need time and experience to get better who is given starter minutes. This usually doesn't happen in big team but that is the reality. 

Btw that is Enzo, Caicedo on the other hand, his game is more mature, there is nothing wrong with him. 

Trouble is both Fabregas and Modric were far more influential and creative at Enzo's age. I said it at the start of the season, I dont see much difference between him and Lucas Torreira. Really similar players. Im not saying he can't improve but we've seen a drop off in form and I'd go so far as to say we're better without him in the side. I really think we need to move him on in the summer if he doesnt improve his performances. 

1 hour ago, olderschoolcfc said:

Trouble is both Fabregas and Modric were far more influential and creative at Enzo's age. 

Enzo is fine. He just need to get better defensively so he can play as cm

3 hours ago, olderschoolcfc said:

Trouble is both Fabregas and Modric were far more influential and creative at Enzo's age. I said it at the start of the season, I dont see much difference between him and Lucas Torreira. Really similar players. Im not saying he can't improve but we've seen a drop off in form and I'd go so far as to say we're better without him in the side. I really think we need to move him on in the summer if he doesnt improve his performances. 

Modric at a later age got branded flop of the season in his first year at Real.

6 minutes ago, Argo said:

Modric at a later age got branded flop of the season in his first year at Real.

Enzo has been with us a year... I wouldn't call him a flop or a spectacular success... I am expecting far more from him as a World Cup winner.