I really hate using buy back clause like some magic clause. The only way you can put buy back clause is if the other party is desperate or the fee is really low. 

 

Edited June 9, 20215 yr by Bob stark

6 hours ago, Paddy said:

As a winger , he doesn’t take a full back on , one v one , skin him and deliver a goal scoring cross/pass/opportunity 

I'd argue that's exactly what he offers. He very good at dropping a should, shifting his weight and finding space behind the defender. 

The quality of crosses is very good, especially when he whips them low towards the front post. 

He's not affraid to take a shot on either, including from distance. 

If anything my frustration with him can be that he doesn't always look to impose himself on a game abd becomes too passive and starts making safe passes around the 18 yard box. 

He has the ability to take a game by the scruff of the neck and make a winning contribution he steps out on the pitch but he has to start doing that with more consistency. 

16 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

Thats the gamble we take though. Hudson Odoi hasn't been great for us. I know he had his bad injury but how long do we use that as an excuse. Lampard and Tuchel both benched him more than they play him.

Underlying stats are better than Pulisic though, he is actually our best winger output wise based on mins on the pitch. 

8 hours ago, Paddy said:

Yeah, let’s wait a few more seasons and then realise what we already know now, after all Bayern have been after him for three years already and in that time his improvement has been ??????? Yep, that’ll be it , f**k all !!!!

Listen, it’s not my money so it doesn’t impact on me, but someone at Chelsea bought into this generational talent sh*te with him and awarded him a fantastic contract based upon what ‘might be’ , but he hasn’t produced and from my stand point he won’t, he doesn’t have it in him, he doesn’t even believe it possible imo.

As a winger , he doesn’t take a full back on , one v one , skin him and deliver a goal scoring cross/pass/opportunity and for someone who might get asked to play in a defensive wing back position, he forgets to defend ffs ?!!!!

He doesn’t have what Reece and Mason have , he doesn’t have that fire in his belly, he’s very comfortable on his 5 year contract @ £120,000 a week - Jesus only another almost £19million before I have to re-negotiate my contract.

Let him go to Bayern, put in a buy back and a sell on clause and be done with it, cause he’s not good enough to play for Chelsea , apologies to all of the “ he’s one of our own brigade” but he’s just taking the dough imo and I suspect Frank and TT think so too ?

Key thing is Bayern hardly ever get it wrong with young players. Salihamidžić has a tried and trusted method of developing young players that works and doesn’t even involve loaning them out of the club. Musiala who they snapped off us at 17yrs  is a testament to the system, he has made 27 appearances for Bayern and has 2 German caps. Alphonso Davies, Coman,  Alaba and Gnabry are others they have snapped up at very young ages and developed into very good players. The Gnabry situation is similar to CHO, Arsenal had him at 17-18yrs couldn’t figure out how to develop him, loaned him to West Brom at 19yrs didn’t look good, sold him to Werner Bremen for £4.5m. Issue is Bayern had been following him at 17yrs old, so apparently paid the transfer fee for Werder Bremen because Arsenal were irritated by their approach, and wasn’t going to sell at a very low fee to them. They then signed him for £7m a year after.

Well Bayern will never allow us to insert a buyback clause in his fee, best bet is Dortmund since they are after him. 
 

There is a very good player there, and player development isn’t linear. He will probably come good at 23-24yrs.

Id like us to keep cho, i reckon there's some goals in there somewhere if he can learn to keep his head. Might have to go somewhere else first though. In retrospect he should been loaned out for a season but too late now.

I think he's brilliant. Only 20 and already reaching Willian levels of divisiveness. 

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I'd argue that's exactly what he offers. He very good at dropping a should, shifting his weight and finding space behind the defender. 

The quality of crosses is very good, especially when he whips them low towards the front post. 

He's not affraid to take a shot on either, including from distance. 

If anything my frustration with him can be that he doesn't always look to impose himself on a game abd becomes too passive and starts making safe passes around the 18 yard box. 

He has the ability to take a game by the scruff of the neck and make a winning contribution he steps out on the pitch but he has to start doing that with more consistency. 

He might ‘offer’ but he doesn’t do it - he doesn’t deliver the goods. Time and time again he either passes the ball back to someone else or puts in a cross without taking on the full back - he’s very predictable he doesn’t scare defenders, unlike Werner, who for all his shortcomings, scares the crap out of defences with his willingness to take them on in a foot race.

He ought to be winning double figure penalties each season like Sterling does or Ashley Young used to but he doesn’t take the defender on and get himself in front and ahead in the penalty area to draw the contact.

There is a reason why successive managers don’t play him , they don’t see enough from him to warrant his selection as anything other than a rarely used substitute.

I don’t believe he has the mental fortitude to effect a game in the way that you suggest, I’d argue that he doesn’t have the ability either, Mount does, Havertz does.

I honestly believe that he’s settled for his 5 year x 120k / week contract - I don’t see any fire in his belly tbh? 

 

55 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Key thing is Bayern hardly ever get it wrong with young players. Salihamidžić has a tried and trusted method of developing young players that works and doesn’t even involve loaning them out of the club. Musiala who they snapped off us at 17yrs  is a testament to the system, he has made 27 appearances for Bayern and has 2 German caps. Alphonso Davies, Coman,  Alaba and Gnabry are others they have snapped up at very young ages and developed into very good players. The Gnabry situation is similar to CHO, Arsenal had him at 17-18yrs couldn’t figure out how to develop him, loaned him to West Brom at 19yrs didn’t look good, sold him to Werner Bremen for £4.5m. Issue is Bayern had been following him at 17yrs old, so apparently paid the transfer fee for Werder Bremen because Arsenal were irritated by their approach, and wasn’t going to sell at a very low fee to them. They then signed him for £7m a year after.

Well Bayern will never allow us to insert a buyback clause in his fee, best bet is Dortmund since they are after him. 
 

There is a very good player there, and player development isn’t linear. He will probably come good at 23-24yrs.

“………He will probably come good at 23-24yrs……….”  Conversely, he may never come good ?

None of us has crystal balls to see into the future, but from my perspective unless Salihamidzic comes the Chelsea , I don’t see the boy improving to a star regular starter at this club, so I say broker the deal and move on.

I don’t know if Haaland will come to Chelsea, but cho as a make weight might persuade Dortmund to listen to an offer ? 

 

I saw an interview with him and he talked about his experience post surgery. Said he lost muscle in his calf which needed to be rebuilt and that he used to run using with toes which was more calf dependent, he has to develop a new way of running and that may just be the half of it.

All in all I think he is still redeveloping himself post injury hence the drop in performance, we may need to wait a while before he hits top form.

7 hours ago, ashwin said:

Mount, even last season or with Derby, showed far more promise than CHO has so far. MM has routinely taken responsibility in games, scored important goals, brings in incredible energy. Which is why unlike CHO, both Lamps and Tuchel have played him in every game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. CHO is a good player with good potential but doesn't have that X factor to make it with us. Good pace and dribbling ability but very poor shooting technique and ordinary vision.

He may do well with Bayern but I really doubt he is going to turn into a WC player suddenly. If he wants to go for 1st team football, I'll be happy to sell him.

Couldn't disagree more with vision, that's a very strong aspect of his game especially for his age.

He's on or around the top of any metrics that measure big chances created. Some examples of the top of my head would be his assist to Azpi vs Burnley, his assist to Pulisic at Anfield and the way he got his head up to find Chilwell for Mount's winner at Fulham.

 

As a young, talented, and still developing footballer; it's critical that he plays consistently at a very high level. And that will be incredibly difficult to do at Chelsea. I believe a 2 year loan will do him wonders. 

That's exactly what Hakimi did. Went from Real Madrid to Dortmund for 2 years and became a complete player, who's now worth $60-$80M.

 

 

6 hours ago, Paddy said:

He might ‘offer’ but he doesn’t do it - he doesn’t deliver the goods. Time and time again he either passes the ball back to someone else or puts in a cross without taking on the full back - he’s very predictable he doesn’t scare defenders, unlike Werner, who for all his shortcomings, scares the crap out of defences with his willingness to take them on in a foot race.

CHO has 29 goal contributions (13 goals, 16 assists) in his Chelsea career to date. 

He has 4, 567 minutes played so he currently contibutes to a goal once every 157 minutes. So slightly better than every 2 full games he contributes to a goal. 

For a 20 year old that's mostly played from the bench and has also had to play as a wingback I think that's quite a decent record. 

Especially considering that he also had to overcome a pretty nasty achilles injury too. 

6 hours ago, Paddy said:

He ought to be winning double figure penalties each season like Sterling does or Ashley Young used to

Raheem Sterling holds the record for most penalties won ever in the Premier League. The total number of penalties he has won is 20. 

He has 290 Premier League appearances. 

Which equals 1 penalty won for every 15 games that he plays. This means he would win 3 penalties per season, on avaerage. 

6 hours ago, Paddy said:

There is a reason why successive managers don’t play him , they don’t see enough from him to warrant his selection as anything other than a rarely used substitute.

Remembering he is 20 years old, from the 18/19 season when he would have been 18 years old.

Sarri gave him 10 Premier League appearances which is when he picked up his achilles injury. 

Lampard gave him 32 Premier League appearances in one and a half seasons. 

Tuchel has given him 13 appearances. 

Remembering that the likes of Reese James, Mason Mount, Tammy Abraham didn't even come into the first team squad until they were 20 years or old I would say CHO is doing alright in terms of selection. 

1 hour ago, haviet1 said:

As a young, talented, and still developing footballer; it's critical that he plays consistently at a very high level. And that will be incredibly difficult to do at Chelsea. I believe a 2 year loan will do him wonders. 

That's exactly what Hakimi did. Went from Real Madrid to Dortmund for 2 years and became a complete player, who's now worth $60-$80M.

 

 

Missed the bus with that one; this season was the perfect opportunity for a 2year loan. We send him out on a 2year loan, he will run out the last year of his contract. 

Selling to Dortmund at a low fee with a buyback clause is perfect, especially if Hakimi is coming in.

7 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

CHO has 29 goal contributions (13 goals, 16 assists) in his Chelsea career to date. 

He has 4, 567 minutes played so he currently contibutes to a goal once every 157 minutes. So slightly better than every 2 full games he contributes to a goal. 

For a 20 year old that's mostly played from the bench and has also had to play as a wingback I think that's quite a decent record. 

Especially considering that he also had to overcome a pretty nasty achilles injury too. 

Raheem Sterling holds the record for most penalties won ever in the Premier League. The total number of penalties he has won is 20. 

He has 290 Premier League appearances. 

Which equals 1 penalty won for every 15 games that he plays. This means he would win 3 penalties per season, on avaerage. 

Remembering he is 20 years old, from the 18/19 season when he would have been 18 years old.

Sarri gave him 10 Premier League appearances which is when he picked up his achilles injury. 

Lampard gave him 32 Premier League appearances in one and a half seasons. 

Tuchel has given him 13 appearances. 

Remembering that the likes of Reese James, Mason Mount, Tammy Abraham didn't even come into the first team squad until they were 20 years or old I would say CHO is doing alright in terms of selection. 

Listen, I respect your right to your opinion and you can quote all the “facts and figures’ you like, the simple matter of fact for me is what I see and I don’t see the player that you describe and furthermore, I don't see him becoming the player that you hope he will become either - it’s not that I don’t want him to succeed, I simply don’t believe he has the quality, ability or mind set to play at the highest level.

He’s a player trading on his youth team reputation imo, right now I believe TT only sees him as a substitute and a rarely used one at that, I honestly don’t think he trusts him ?  - you can quote how many times he has played and for how many minutes, his age, his Achilles injury but I don’t think he will develop in the way that MM, RJ have - I see them desperate to succeed and not scared of the challenge, they aren’t frightened or intimidated by the opposition - I don’t see any of that from cho.

If he can be used in a deal to attract new players then I say do it .

 

2 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Listen, I respect your right to your opinion and you can quote all the “facts and figures’ you like.

And you can post all of the made up "figures" you like, such as Sterling winning "double figures" in penalties every year...

But if you're going to make things up to try and dimmish CHO then be ready for people to call it out as the nonsense it is. 

34 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

And you can post all of the made up "figures" you like, such as Sterling winning "double figures" in penalties every year...

But if you're going to make things up to try and dimmish CHO then be ready for people to call it out as the nonsense it is. 

I don’t see there ever being consensus between you and I with regard to cho, which is ok, but forgetting and forgiving my numerical inaccuracies ( I meant appeals as to awards btw) he rarely if ever puts himself into a position to have a shout out for a pen which was simile with Sterling and Young - if that’s the only thing that you can ‘call out’ , then my points are well made.

The last word, if you choose, is all yours.

2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

CHO has 29 goal contributions (13 goals, 16 assists) in his Chelsea career to date. 

He has 4, 567 minutes played so he currently contibutes to a goal once every 157 minutes. So slightly better than every 2 full games he contributes to a goal. 

For a 20 year old that's mostly played from the bench and has also had to play as a wingback I think that's quite a decent record. 

Especially considering that he also had to overcome a pretty nasty achilles injury too. 

Raheem Sterling holds the record for most penalties won ever in the Premier League. The total number of penalties he has won is 20. 

He has 290 Premier League appearances. 

Which equals 1 penalty won for every 15 games that he plays. This means he would win 3 penalties per season, on avaerage. 

Remembering he is 20 years old, from the 18/19 season when he would have been 18 years old.

Sarri gave him 10 Premier League appearances which is when he picked up his achilles injury. 

Lampard gave him 32 Premier League appearances in one and a half seasons. 

Tuchel has given him 13 appearances. 

Remembering that the likes of Reese James, Mason Mount, Tammy Abraham didn't even come into the first team squad until they were 20 years or old I would say CHO is doing alright in terms of selection. 

A typical case of poor inference from statistics.

And when you are looking at goal contributions per minute, it's good to present this metric separately for starts and substitute appearances. We all know that this does not scale.

The 29 goal contributions in his Chelsea career include several against poor opposition in the early rounds of the Champions League, Fa Cup or Europa League. He has scored 1 goal (I think) in all his PL starts (admittedly hasn't started many). He has goals against Krasnodar, Grimsby, Nottingham Forest among others.

He has made a couple of incisive and important passes recently leading to people claiming he has 'extra'ordinary vision. But how many times has he not seen a run and passed the ball sideways or just along the channel. For someone who crosses the ball in so much (and has featured so often against not-so-good defenses), his assist tally is poor.

None of our managers have really trusted him to start and dominate important games. He's useful coming off the bench but not even then is there complete trust and faith. His shooting technique is extremely poor, I would trust Rudiger's ability to strike a ball over CHOs. Judging him on the basis of rumoured interest from Bayern is a bit weak.

Yes, he is younger than all the others but he has shown nothing spectacular so far. A good player in the making but technically too limited to become a starter for a top club.

56 minutes ago, ashwin said:

And when you are looking at goal contributions per minute, it's good to present this metric separately for starts and substitute appearances. We all know that this does not scale.

The 29 goal contributions in his Chelsea career include several against poor opposition in the early rounds of the Champions League, Fa Cup or Europa League. He has scored 1 goal (I think) in all his PL starts (admittedly hasn't started many). He has goals against Krasnodar, Grimsby, Nottingham Forest among others.

I can't find a way of knowing goal contributions based on starts or sub appearances. If you have that, please share. 

Premier League only. 57 appearance, total playing time of 2,323 minutes which is just shy of 26 full games of 90 minutes. 

12 goal contributions (3 goals, 9 assists). 

So 1 goal contribution roughly every 2 games played if judged by minutes played. 

He is 20 years old. *shrugs* I don't know where these lofty expectations for him come from personally. 

Willian throughout his entire Chelsea career made 76 goal contributions (37 goals, 39 assists) in 234 appearances. That's 1 goal every contribution every 3 games remembering he took the majority of corners and free kicks and a couple penalties too I think. 

Is Hudson-Odoi (and I hate to keep reiterating this point) at 20 years old really doing that badly? 

Edited June 9, 20215 yr by ForeverCarefree

We are paying massive wages for not much in return in my view.

Yes he's young but there's a heap of players in and around his age in the EPL alone who are performing better. 

Don't see it with him at all. 

1 hour ago, ashwin said:

The 29 goal contributions in his Chelsea career include several against poor opposition in the early rounds of the Champions League, Fa Cup or Europa League. He has scored 1 goal (I think) in all his PL starts (admittedly hasn't started many). He has goals against Krasnodar, Grimsby, Nottingham Forest among others.

Let's apply the same standard here and see if we should sell Timo Werner as well as CHO, just for the fun of it;

Only 2 players played more minutes than Timo Werner this season: Mendy 84 minutes more and Mount 411 minutes more.

Werner scored in total 12 goals this season, the following 7 goals he scored against these teams: Krasnodar, Burnley, Southampton x2, Sheffield, Newcastle, Morecambe.

This means that Timo scored around 58% of all of his goals against some of the worst teams we have played this season, all of these teams have finished below the top 10 in the PL, Krasnodar finished 10th in the Russian Premier League and Morecambe was in league 2 and they will play in league 1 next season.

The rest of his goals? Timo scored the following 5 goals against these teams: 2 goals from the penalty spot vs Rennes, 1 goals vs Real Madrid, 1 goals vs West Ham in the PL and 1 goal vs Spurs in the League Cup. Now maybe some will argue that some of these teams are also to be considered as poor opposition, 2/5 of his goals scored against these better teams came from the penalty spot and let's not forget that his goal vs Real Madrid was a simple headed tap-in from a few millimeters.

Werner assisted against the following teams (Transfermarkt counts a penalty won as an assist): Krasnodar, Atletico Madrid, Brighton, Southampton, Newcastle, Leeds, West Ham, Spurs, Sheffield x2, WBA, Fulham, Man City (x2 once in the PL once in the Cup), Leicester.

This means that Werner got 53% of his assists while playing against the lower end teams.

So if CHO's contribution is not valid because he made most of his end product against poor teams, that same standard clearly shows that Timo Werner's goal contribution sucks in comparison to CHO because he's 25 years old, played over 3800 minutes and cost £45m.

41 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I can't find a way of knowing goal contributions based on starts or sub appearances. If you have that, please share. 

Premier League only. 57 appearance, total playing time of 2,323 minutes which is just shy of 26 full games of 90 minutes. 

12 goal contributions (3 goals, 9 assists). 

So 1 goal contribution roughly every 2 games played if judged by minutes played. 

He is 20 years old. *shrugs* I don't know where these lofty expectations for him come from personally. 

Willian throughout his entire Chelsea career made 76 goal contributions (37 goals, 39 assists) in 234 appearances. That's 1 goal every contribution every 3 games remembering he took the majority of corners and free kicks and a couple penalties too I think. 

Is Hudson-Odoi (and I hate to keep reiterating this point) at 20 years old really doing that badly? 

I don't think he's done badly for his technical ability at all. Just that he doesn't have anything particularly special that sets him apart.

Just looking at his starting stats, he's played 1333 mins in PL starts (might be a little off, did a quick mental add on the phone), he's contributed 6 goals scoring just 1. So that's a goal contribution every 222 mins.

Looking at who he's contributed goals against, 

PAOK Salonika 2

Dynamo Kiev 3

Malmo 1

Brighton 1 + 1

Nottingham Forest 2 + 1

Sheff. Wed 1

Lille 1

Southampton 1

Newcastle 1

Burnley 1 + 1

Arsenal 1 + 1 (in a 2-2 draw and a 3-1 loss)

Liverpool 1 (in the 5-3 loss)

Grimsby 1

Krasnodar 1

Rennes 1

West Brom 1

Man City 1 (in a 3-1 loss)

Crystal Palace 1

Morecambe 2

Luton 1

So that's more than 16 of the 29 against pretty below par teams.

So while the stats do tell a story, there are hidden layers here which probably also influence manager decisions to trust him as a starter.

19 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Let's apply the same standard here and see if we should sell Timo Werner as well as CHO, just for the fun of it;

Only 2 players played more minutes than Timo Werner this season: Mendy 84 minutes more and Mount 411 minutes more.

Werner scored in total 12 goals this season, the following 7 goals he scored against these teams: Krasnodar, Burnley, Southampton x2, Sheffield, Newcastle, Morecambe.

This means that Timo scored around 58% of all of his goals against some of the worst teams we have played this season, all of these teams have finished below the top 10 in the PL, Krasnodar finished 10th in the Russian Premier League and Morecambe was in league 2 and they will play in league 1 next season.

The rest of his goals? Timo scored the following 5 goals against these teams: 2 goals from the penalty spot vs Rennes, 1 goals vs Real Madrid, 1 goals vs West Ham in the PL and 1 goal vs Spurs in the League Cup. Now maybe some will argue that some of these teams are also to be considered as poor opposition, 2/5 of his goals scored against these better teams came from the penalty spot and let's not forget that his goal vs Real Madrid was a simple headed tap-in from a few millimeters.

Werner assisted against the following teams (Transfermarkt counts a penalty won as an assist): Krasnodar, Atletico Madrid, Brighton, Southampton, Newcastle, Leeds, West Ham, Spurs, Sheffield x2, WBA, Fulham, Man City (x2 once in the PL once in the Cup), Leicester.

This means that Werner got 53% of his assists while playing against the lower end teams.

So if CHO's contribution is not valid because he made most of his end product against poor teams, that same standard clearly shows that Timo Werner's goal contribution sucks in comparison to CHO because he's 25 years old, played over 3800 minutes and cost £45m.

Yes, Werner has had a poor season. Don't think anyone will debate that. Still, he has had far more goals and assists in important matches than CHO (Werner has played more of course).

When CHO begins to match Werner's off the ball work and movement, we can begin to compare their non-goal contributions. But sadly, CHO doesn't come close.

My point is that you do not need stats to understand the shortcomings that CHO has. And if you look at stats, there are layers.

Edited June 9, 20215 yr by ashwin
.

For me the baffling thing is how this young player who has bags of potential has been benched by our two last coaches, Frank and Tuchel. And the latter had him starting games from day one until he decided for unknown reasons that he was going to be benched. 
The other thing I notice when CHO plays is that his effort is not comparable to James or Mount, nor even to Gilmour. But that’s just my feeling, I haven’t got any statistics to back it up.

26 minutes ago, ashwin said:

Yes, Werner has had a poor season. Don't think anyone will debate that. Still, he has had far more goals and assists in important matches than CHO (Werner has played more of course).

When CHO begins to match Werner's off the ball work and movement, we can begin to compare their non-goal contributions. But sadly, CHO doesn't come close.

My point is that you do not need stats to understand the shortcomings that CHO has. And if you look at stats, there are layers.

So if the main reason why Werner has more end product is due to simply playing more minutes why shouldn't CHO get more minutes next season, why should I see Timo as a part of the team and CHO as a not needed player when a 20 year old CHO can become much better than Werner in due time?