4 hours ago, Zeta said:

I still think he should be the rotation option with Kante. He doesn't offer enough going forward to be the attacking one of the 3.

That's just the issue, he's not the right man for the role that he's currently in. 

Which is a shame because before he was signed for Real Madrid he was always rumoured to be the next Luka Modric due to his passing and creativity, however, at Chelsea he really doesn't take many risks at all. 

EPL pass success rate Kovacic 92.6% - Barkley 91.3%

EPL Dispossessed Kovacic 1.4 per game - Barkley 1.3

EPL Bad control touches Kovacic 0.9 - Barkley 0.7

I have just looked at their respective overall ratings - offensive, defensive, passing - for the Europa League games which I never looked through this morning. Their ratings ............. both exactly the same 7.12.

As I said, absolutely nothing to separate them in terms of overall performance levels so far except that Barkley has contributed more in the final third with his assists, shots and goals.

3 hours ago, Slojo said:

Kovacic has better passing stats than Barkley, so how do the stats not support his argument? 

Sorry Slojo missed your post and didn't reply. Please see my post above.

Edited January 29, 20197 yr by just

2 hours ago, just said:

EPL pass success rate Kovacic 92.6% - Barkley 91.3%

EPL Dispossessed Kovacic 1.4 per game - Barkley 1.3

EPL Bad control touches Kovacic 0.9 - Barkley 0.7

I have just looked at their respective overall ratings - offensive, defensive, passing - for the Europa League games which I never looked through this morning. Their ratings ............. both exactly the same 7.12.

As I said, absolutely nothing to separate them in terms of overall performance levels so far except that Barkley has contributed more in the final third with his assists, shots and goals.

When I see some of the stats being bandied I do wonder on their accuracy to be honest and prefer to judge the value of a players performance with my own eyes.

One of the best quotes I've seen about statistics

'Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal is suggestive, what they conceal is vital'

Edited January 29, 20197 yr by charierre

39 minutes ago, charierre said:

When I see some of the stats being bandied I do wonder on their accuracy to be honest and prefer to judge the value of a players performance with my own eyes.

One of the best quotes I've seen about statistics

'Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal is suggestive, what they conceal is vital'

I didn't know girls covered their personality and intelligence with a bikini......

7 hours ago, big blue said:

I wouldn't have kovacic or Barkley in the squad next season in all honesty. 

We seem to have 3 players for that left centre midfield slot and all have their faults, but RLC is club trained, and is the most effective out of the 3. 

Kovacic is going to cost a lot more than the £30m madrid paid for him, and I think we should spend the money on a player that ticks more of the boxes. Kovacic plays a mich more intelligent game than Barkley, in terms of his positional awareness, and his vision is better aswell in my opinion.

Barkley was a decent buy for the price, but I just don't think he will ever be more than a squad player. He had a bit more of free role at Everton, but he isn't going to get that at a top 6 club. 

It's a possibility. You talk to Everton fans and they'll say Barkley is playing safe for fear of making a mistake. 

I think Kovacic is similar but he is perhaps more naturally suited to a deeper lying role. Neither of them seem game to break the lines with a dribble which we desperately need.

For mine I think our long tern future will be having NGolo deeper and closer to Jorginho and a freer role for the third midfielder. RLC may be the guy who fills that role long term.

3 hours ago, charierre said:

When I see some of the stats being bandied I do wonder on their accuracy to be honest and prefer to judge the value of a players performance with my own eyes.

One of the best quotes I've seen about statistics

'Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal is suggestive, what they conceal is vital'

Charierre I could not agree more, and you'll see in my first post I said I am not a stats man. What my own eyes have seen watching the games is that there has been little difference in the overall levels of performances between Kovacic and Barkley. Their stats to date show that that is the case. So I would hope that those posters who always have positive bias towards anything Kovacic does and a negative bias towards anything Barkley might contribute, take a bit more of a balanced view. 

I really hope both of them can kick on and improve because personally I don't think either of them have shown enough quality to be nailed on starters. And I would also say I feel the same about Jorginho. He's been OK but I was really hoping to see more from him too.

 

Edited January 29, 20197 yr by just

I don’t know, Kovacic goes with the flow really well. He slots in and he doesn’t look out of place, and Barkley always looked out of his depth.

They both may be similar in statistics but surely with your own eyes you can see Kovacic is a much, much better player. Got a lot more to his game than Barkley.

43 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

I don’t know, Kovacic goes with the flow really well. He slots in and he doesn’t look out of place, and Barkley always looked out of his depth.

They both may be similar in statistics but surely with your own eyes you can see Kovacic is a much, much better player. Got a lot more to his game than Barkley.

Goes with the flow really well!!! Slots in!!! Yep, that's the kind unbiased factual reasoning that makes it clear Kovacic is a much better player. 

I can see I'm wasting my time here. 

We’ll just agree to disagree! 

I think I generally agree with @just,  not a great deal between them.  Kovacic does have a dribble in him,  but then seems to run out of ideas, almost as if he;s surprised that he's managed to get so far.  They usually end in simply losing the ball.

 

I do find it amusing though that people will  bandy statistics or web-site opinions around until those stats actually indicate something against what they have been arguing, in which case the default fall-back is "I rely on what I actually see instead of statistics"  (not @charierre particularly, I haven't seen this from him/her)

I suppose we are all selective in a way, though

I find myself agreeing with Dan and I suppose Sarri too as he picks Kovacic more frequently.

Stats are useful in allowing you to make arguments yet limited stats are double-edged.

What stats won't tell us is if Kovacic has superior positioning so he does not need to make a challenge as it is snuffed out.

It also does not tell if he closes down faster.

What is good is that we have another decent option.

 

15 hours ago, just said:

Charierre I could not agree more, and you'll see in my first post I said I am not a stats man. What my own eyes have seen watching the games is that there has been little difference in the overall levels of performances between Kovacic and Barkley. Their stats to date show that that is the case. So I would hope that those posters who always have positive bias towards anything Kovacic does and a negative bias towards anything Barkley might contribute, take a bit more of a balanced view. 

I really hope both of them can kick on and improve because personally I don't think either of them have shown enough quality to be nailed on starters. And I would also say I feel the same about Jorginho. He's been OK but I was really hoping to see more from him too.

 

Barkley I think has regressed significantly in the last few weeks having had a purple patch peaking against a struggling Burnley side. I always question stats produced in football,I see these fabulous passing ones and wonder 'only one misplaced in ten'. As for Kovacic I'm really unsure of what to make of him, he's tidy and a decent enough player( all players at this standard have their plus points) but what else does he bring to the table? I would say Kovacic at present is bringing more to the team but his final third contributions is woeful.We undoubtedly have a conundrum our team at present doesn't do enough in the final third, the dreaded stage tell us we have a number of shots but what do our eyes tell us when watching the game, was the chance actually a good one? 

As a footnote the only stats I like are the score, who scored and the position in the table.Assists in particular being a personal hate.

15 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

I don’t know, Kovacic goes with the flow really well. He slots in and he doesn’t look out of place, and Barkley always looked out of his depth.

They both may be similar in statistics but surely with your own eyes you can see Kovacic is a much, much better player. Got a lot more to his game than Barkley.

Except Goals & Assists!!

 

4 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

I think I generally agree with @just,  not a great deal between them.  Kovacic does have a dribble in him,  but then seems to run out of ideas, almost as if he;s surprised that he's managed to get so far.  They usually end in simply losing the ball.

 

I do find it amusing though that people will  bandy statistics or web-site opinions around until those stats actually indicate something against what they have been arguing, in which case the default fall-back is "I rely on what I actually see instead of statistics"  (not @charierre particularly, I haven't seen this from him/her)

I suppose we are all selective in a way, though

Indeed we are YB. Just to make you aware, the stats for Willian don't make great reading!

I think some people find Kovacic the far superior player because he came from Madrid and was extremely hyped before arriving there and isn’t English.

 

There’s nothing between them in terms of performance IMO. They’ve both been ‘OK’ but I expected more from both of them if I’m honest & hopefully they improve. The only thing I would say is Kovacic will costa at least £50m... Barkley is already ours.

12 minutes ago, Nibs said:

the stats for Willian don't make great reading!

 

Depending on what you think his stats should be, obviously

There's some sort of web page for each player, and Willian's stats for  goals and assists are pretty consistent through out his career.  The people who moan most, quickest and longest about Willian tend to be those who think he is or should be an outright goal scorer.  I don't see him as that, he never has been before, so I disagree with those who criticise him about that facet of his game.  You know, @Nibs that I don't think Willian is the ultimate in football players and I can agree that we need an upgrade on both Willian and Pedro, but the Willy-whingeing that goes on is just wrong-headed, which is why I stick up for the bloke.

And we do have some regulars in here who will pick up on and whine about any of the slightest mistakes he makes, who will never ever credit the lad with any of the good things he does and who never ever criticise some of the other players,  even if they are much worse on the day.  The standard position for some people seems to be Willian is sh*te because I don't like him, so I'll comment about every bad thing regardless.  (just over a minute into a match recently,  on what I think was his first touch, some bugger started slating him).  And then some of them try to justify their position by saying things like he only scores glory-boosting goals when we're winning and in total control or against much worse opposition, as if those goals count for less, but discount criticism of other players against lower opposition because they "weren't playing with the first team" or "they haven't had a proper chance".

'Nuff said, I think, except no, Willian ain't Messi, but he ain't sh*te either, and every one of our managers since he arrived has chosen him for a reason.  I prefer to think that top professional managers know their own players and tactics better than a few random internet forum fans from around the world.

Six months in and I’m still not sure what he does in this team.

1 minute ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Six months in and I’m still not sure what he does in this team.

And the other 10 players?

1 minute ago, charierre said:

And the other 10 players?

Give me time, I’ll post about most of them.

5 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Give me time, I’ll post about most of them.

Let me know if you need the stats.

I'd love to see some stats that point to him being a legit assest in attack or defense but they dont exist. 

Again didn't offer anything. There's no way we should be paying big money for him. 

Mesut Ozil.....that is who he reminds me of. He goes missing in pretty much every game he plays for us. You see more of him running off to be subbed than anything else.

On 28/01/2019 at 22:54, jack_super_class said:

The only i can think of is his shooting, everything else is pretty good.

He has a beautiful face, great technique, can tackle, great workrate and defensive contribution, good in tight spaces, can dribble, doesn't sh*t his pants when he gets pressed, can also play Jorginho position, has a good pass on him. I hope i haven't missed anything, feel free to add something if i have.

Jack, haven't heard anything further from you since this kicked it all off. I'm interested to know if you would still spend the money to buy him?

Edited January 30, 20197 yr by just

16 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Mesut Ozil.....that is who he reminds me of. He goes missing in pretty much every game he plays for us. You see more of him running off to be subbed than anything else.

Maybe from a big game standpoint, but Ozil has a 19 assist season to his name.

Funny you mention Ozil. Because I was thinking he would be PERFECT in games like this. Our midfield has a ton of time, and rarely have to defend. 

Just have good possession and let Ozil pick out a pass. 

We need an Eriksen, Silva, De Bruyne type though. Creative and capable of getting a goal on his own.