Super Frank Lampard

[Argo]

5 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Toe to toe against one of the worst teams in the league, sloppy given away penalty and one of the most rare things to ever see in nature, Kepa saving a shot to stop the opposition to get away with a point.

That's the definition at looking at the score without context.

If it weren't for Ben Foster it would have been 4 or 5, for 80 minutes we absolutely controlled the game, set up pressing bait time and time again and played through them like a hot knife through butter. It was the most commanding/comfortable game for years until VAR decided it needed a bit of the spotlight.

That game being a close scoreline was a absolute travesty and didn't do the performance justice, if they actually escaped with a point it would have made Barca 09 look fair.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Argo

[strider6004]

26 minutes ago, Keitha313 said:

What annoys me most is Franks poor decision making, why take off Willian our more productive player in attack? It should have been Batshuayi off for Tammy, but for whatever reason Lampard constantly sticks to Tammy no matter how bad he plays and he has played bad even since the last Arsenal win the club had. A goal doesn't make me think he is playing good, good link-up play and making yourself open towards joining in the play like Harry Kane does that and being more clinical which he clearly struggles with. We take off Kante for one blunder and yes it was a bloody awful one, but Tammy misses sitters nearly every damn game but where is his punishment?

 

Lampard keeps Tammy on even though he did nothing for 94 minutes which in turn saw him get injured, slow clapping here... I think you'd be beyond biased to ignore the favouritism that Lampard is showing to certain people. People will mention the goal tally Abraham has which is good I put it down to great team work getting him as many, but for large parts the inconsistency and poor play its hard to watch Chelsea won't be winning the league with him playing like this he needs to improve a lot. Well now it looks like we're without a a starting striker, I wonder what dumb move he will do next maybe Mount as a false 9.

He certainly seems to have his untouchables from time to time.

Surprised Mount was actually on the bench yesterday.

[Gol15]

28 minutes ago, Argo said:

That's the definition at looking at the score without context.

If it weren't for Ben Foster it would have been 4 or 5, for 80 minutes we absolutely controlled the game, set up pressing bait time and time again and played through them like a hot knife through butter. It was the most commanding/comfortable game for years until VAR decided it needed a bit of the spotlight.

That game being a close scoreline was a absolute travesty and didn't do the performance justice, if they actually escaped with a point it would have made Barca 09 look fair.

I can also say that we dominated Newcastle away with Kante and that it's an absolute travesty that the scorline was 1:0 and not 0:2...

Doesn't change the fact that we in the end of the day only made some scrapping wins against teams that shouldn't even be close to get something out of the game, Watford is one of the worst teams in the league and we couldn't finish the job it was all scary and the biggest thing is that Kepa actually saved a shot which is an anomaly so we were lucky that he performed outside of his norm! Because us missing chances has been the norm this season.

[Argo]

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I can also say that we dominated Newcastle away with Kante and that it's an absolute travesty that the scorline was 1:0 and not 0:2...

Doesn't change the fact that we in the end of the day only made some scrapping wins against teams that shouldn't even be close to get something out of the game, Watford is one of the worst teams in the league and we couldn't finish the job it was all scary and the biggest thing is that Kepa actually saved a shot which is an anomaly so we were lucky that he performed outside of his norm! Because us missing chances has been the norm this season.

Not really, we didn't deserve to lose at Newcastle but we didn't completely strangle them either.

Watford maybe a poor team but if it was so easy to do what we did it would be getting done systematically. To force your will on ANY opponent relentlessly like we did that night is impressive.

[Gol15]

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Not really, we didn't deserve to lose at Newcastle but we didn't completely strangle them either.

Watford maybe a poor team but if it was so easy to do what we did it would be getting done systematically. To force your will on ANY opponent relentlessly like we did that night is impressive.

Jorginho's assist was impressive. Kepa saving us was impressive. The game itself, missing clear chances and almost losing 2 points?!? 

This is the story of the season, the reason why Lampard is only complaining about our finishing and not even thinking about the counter attacking issues.

[Argo]

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho's assist was impressive. Kepa saving us was impressive. The game itself, missing clear chances and almost losing 2 points?!? 

This is the story of the season, the reason why Lampard is only complaining about our finishing and not even thinking about the counter attacking issues.

By that logic had Watford smashed us and we sh*thoused a 1-0 through a own goal the performance would be just as impressive 😦 

The best 20 minutes of football I've ever seen was Barcelona away to Arsenal in 2010, guess how many goals they scored in that period? None, it's laughable to suggest you can't have a great performance without scoring sh*t loads.

[Brutos]

Funnily enough Klopp in his first two years was making similar mistakes to what Lampard is doing now. Game management sketchy, standing by poor performing keepers etc.
Regarding the proven at the top level bit i would rather look at what we're seeing now as opposed to what was done before. Klopp may have had a track record previous when struggling at Pool, but what (in relation to the top level) did Spurs have to go on in Pochettinos first season? What did Dortmund have to go on when Klopp struggled there initially? What did Liverpool have to go on in Brendan's first season? They saw signs on the pitch to stick by them not by looking at before. On the flip side to that, Jose has the "proven track record" but would you trust him overseeing what we're trying to do? 
And yes I do believe there are signs of encouragement despite the struggles of late, here are some bullet points as to why I think so.
- He's had us winning three big away games (Ajax, Arsenal, Spurs) after more than two years not winning a single one, and ALL three of them were in a lot part down to his tactics/adjustment's. You could even say four at a push by including this very good Wolves team that scalp the top six as a hobby.
- We went toe to toe with two of the best sides in PL history. Liverpool had to park the bus to escape the Bridge with three points, this was finished article Liverpool vs young players and a manager five games into top flight football. We lost the games due to them being more experienced and clinical but the fact we actually went toe to toe with them and competed at this stage was outstanding.
- When it's come off it's been really good. Watford away especially was an absolute delight to watch.
- He has improved players. Tomori looked like he was finding his level in the Championship until Frank got hold of him, Kova looks a different player this season, Pulisic has started producing numbers that he wasn't really known for, Tammy and Mount are better all round players, Willian is probably having his best season with the club.
- We are vastly underperforming our XG rates at both ends, which as God frustrating as it is currently, is a promising indication things will get better. XG is as accurate a foreshadower of things to come as it's possible to get.
Am I happy with everything he's done? No, I'm particularly vocal at my irritation of the Jorgi/Kova/Mount midfield being broke up prematurely (which in my opinion had cost us atleast 7 points) and i do expect evolvement year on year (less and less of the naiveity we can sometimes see) but all things considered (transfer embargo, losing Hazard, trying to rebuild a core with academy players, all in sundry thinking we'd be lucky to finish top half) he's doing a fine job and I've seen more than enough encouragement there's a potential top coach there.

I hear your points absolutely valid we have had fantastic results and as great as they are they are exceptions this season not the norm.

My concern relates to progression, I am not seeing the progression from mistakes made in previous matches to the other matches. If I saw that but we still had challenges or still lose then fair play. What did we do in the last match that didn't work? What did we do great? How do we build on the "what worked" while fixing the "what didn't" What I am seeing however is the same tactics the same approach the same style.
When Sarri did that last season the media started the no plan B agenda and fans run with it, at the moment I don't even think we have a plan A.

The start of the season I could see the plan, high press, direct quick play I don't see that anymore which begs the question what's our approach to games. Are we developing a identity?

Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results is mind boggling, every game you can see a pattern very early on and you pretty much can figure out the result, this is my concern. We were left with a very good base from Sarri to build on with only Hazard leaving which shouldn't affect our over system and framework.

The gist of what am trying to convey is there is a concern from me that we have regressed.

*The obvious caveat is we had no transfer window and that will change next season so I am still behind Lamps fully I just want to some identity grit fight not just against Tottenham or Arsenal away and that doesn't need a transfer window.

[Ernie_blue]

If Hazard was still at Chelsea this season we would be fighting for 2nd place, I know that's what no one inspires too but that's the difference a world class attacking player gives you. Hazard leaving in the same window as not being able to sign any players has had a big effect on this squad. Willian or Pedro are not half as good, CHO is just starting out and the main players I could see filling that void are Pulisic and RLC and they have been injured the majority of this season. The amount of games we have dropped points in I could easily see turned around by Hazard playing and that's including last night. The football was just as bad this time last year.

[Spiller86]

38 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

If Hazard was still at Chelsea this season we would be fighting for 2nd place, I know that's what no one inspires too but that's the difference a world class attacking player gives you. Hazard leaving in the same window as not being able to sign any players has had a big effect on this squad. Willian or Pedro are not half as good, CHO is just starting out and the main players I could see filling that void are Pulisic and RLC and they have been injured the majority of this season. The amount of games we have dropped points in I could easily see turned around by Hazard playing and that's including last night. The football was just as bad this time last year.

Good point Ernie. We were playing just as sh*t this time last year after a similarly good start.

Hazard made a difference but two other things come to mind that turned us around lasy Spring:

1. We stopped trying to press in an odd isolated way that opened gaps on the counter attack. In fact we defended quite narrow and deep

2. Ruben began to come into his own and gave us some midfield creativity. I don't think we've realised how much we've missed him.

Ruben isn't coming back soon but we can at least look to try and switch up number 1 which might help.

[2211]

1 hour ago, Brutos said:

I hear your points absolutely valid we have had fantastic results and as great as they are they are exceptions this season not the norm.

My concern relates to progression, I am not seeing the progression from mistakes made in previous matches to the other matches. If I saw that but we still had challenges or still lose then fair play. What did we do in the last match that didn't work? What did we do great? How do we build on the "what worked" while fixing the "what didn't" What I am seeing however is the same tactics the same approach the same style.
When Sarri did that last season the media started the no plan B agenda and fans run with it, at the moment I don't even think we have a plan A.

The start of the season I could see the plan, high press, direct quick play I don't see that anymore which begs the question what's our approach to games. Are we developing a identity?

Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results is mind boggling, every game you can see a pattern very early on and you pretty much can figure out the result, this is my concern. We were left with a very good base from Sarri to build on with only Hazard leaving which shouldn't affect our over system and framework.

The gist of what am trying to convey is there is a concern from me that we have regressed.

*The obvious caveat is we had no transfer window and that will change next season so I am still behind Lamps fully I just want to some identity grit fight not just against Tottenham or Arsenal away and that doesn't need a transfer window.

Good post, you’ve highlighted some of the things that concern me the most ATM.

I can’t see any evidence of anything that’s been worked on in training, there’s literally nothing different from the week before.

It’s almost like they think let’s do the same as last week and one of these games it’ll work.

 

[Gol15]

1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

If Hazard was still at Chelsea this season we would be fighting for 2nd place, I know that's what no one inspires too but that's the difference a world class attacking player gives you. Hazard leaving in the same window as not being able to sign any players has had a big effect on this squad. Willian or Pedro are not half as good, CHO is just starting out and the main players I could see filling that void are Pulisic and RLC and they have been injured the majority of this season. The amount of games we have dropped points in I could easily see turned around by Hazard playing and that's including last night. The football was just as bad this time last year.

Spot on. Sadly a lot of people don't understand this, they want to sell most of the good that's left in the team from last year 

[Belfast_blue5]

6 hours ago, Argo said:

Funnily enough Klopp in his first two years was making similar mistakes to what Lampard is doing now. Game management sketchy, standing by poor performing keepers etc.

Regarding the proven at the top level bit i would rather look at what we're seeing now as opposed to what was done before. Klopp may have had a track record previous when struggling at Pool, but what (in relation to the top level) did Spurs have to go on in Pochettinos first season? What did Dortmund have to go on when Klopp struggled there initially? What did Liverpool have to go on in Brendan's first season? They saw signs on the pitch to stick by them not by looking at before. On the flip side to that, Jose has the "proven track record" but would you trust him overseeing what we're trying to do? 

And yes I do believe there are signs of encouragement despite the struggles of late, here are some bullet points as to why I think so.

- He's had us winning three big away games (Ajax, Arsenal, Spurs) after more than two years not winning a single one, and ALL three of them were in a lot part down to his tactics/adjustment's. You could even say four at a push by including this very good Wolves team that scalp the top six as a hobby.

- We went toe to toe with two of the best sides in PL history. Liverpool had to park the bus to escape the Bridge with three points, this was finished article Liverpool vs young players and a manager five games into top flight football. We lost the games due to them being more experienced and clinical but the fact we actually went toe to toe with them and competed at this stage was outstanding.

- When it's come off it's been really good. Watford away especially was an absolute delight to watch.

- He has improved players. Tomori looked like he was finding his level in the Championship until Frank got hold of him, Kova looks a different player this season, Pulisic has started producing numbers that he wasn't really known for, Tammy and Mount are better all round players, Willian is probably having his best season with the club.

- We are vastly underperforming our XG rates at both ends, which as God frustrating as it is currently, is a promising indication things will get better. XG is as accurate a foreshadower of things to come as it's possible to get.

Am I happy with everything he's done? No, I'm particularly vocal at my irritation of the Jorgi/Kova/Mount midfield being broke up prematurely (which in my opinion had cost us atleast 7 points) and i do expect evolvement year on year (less and less of the naiveity we can sometimes see) but all things considered (transfer embargo, losing Hazard, trying to rebuild a core with academy players, all in sundry thinking we'd be lucky to finish top half) he's doing a fine job and I've seen more than enough encouragement there's a potential top coach there.

Totally agree I think frank is doing a good job. At the start of the season most fans would have been happy with a fifth or sixth place finish because of the ban and losing hazard. 
 

I don’t understand all this talk about how good Klopp is don’t get me wrong he has built a very good side but he has also Spent 425 million and been at Liverpool since 2015. That Liverpool side is no better than the team Mourinho had his first time here. We got branded long ball merchants and boring but Liverpool are fantastic to watch even tho they are the most direct top six side in years. 

[forbzy]

28 minutes ago, Belfast_blue5 said:

Totally agree I think frank is doing a good job. At the start of the season most fans would have been happy with a fifth or sixth place finish because of the ban and losing hazard. 
 

I don’t understand all this talk about how good Klopp is don’t get me wrong he has built a very good side but he has also Spent 425 million and been at Liverpool since 2015. That Liverpool side is no better than the team Mourinho had his first time here. We got branded long ball merchants and boring but Liverpool are fantastic to watch even tho they are the most direct top six side in years. 

Agreed. Liverpool look like they will set a bunch of records this season on their way to the title. However they invested heavily to build this side, and have benefited from a particularly weak league this season. It is highly unusual to have a season where so many of the usual challengers are having poor seasons. When Jose won first time around we broke the points record against Fergie's United, and Wenger's invincibles. Liverpool have been fantastic this season, but I think some pundits are going a little overboard already claiming that they are the best of all time and will win the league for years to come.

 

[Ernie_blue]

Surely set pieces is something which can be done on the training field, awful at defending them and awful at taking them, 17 corners against Arsenal, a few seasons back that would be a guaranteed couple of goals by itself.

[axman2526]

37 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Surely set pieces is something which can be done on the training field, awful at defending them and awful at taking them, 17 corners against Arsenal, a few seasons back that would be a guaranteed couple of goals by itself.

Should have done this time. Christensen missed a sitter. Real donkey he is at attacking set plays.

[PloKoon13]

18 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

For me he needs to make a big decision, gets it right and his managerial career takes off, get's it wrong and he won't get another top job for some time.

To be honest I was hoping the Tottenham game would be this, a schooling of the former master, against our most hated rivals, with an innovative first XI - it was magnificent. It's a shame our form has been so erratic since.

[coombsie]

11 hours ago, Brutos said:

I hear your points absolutely valid we have had fantastic results and as great as they are they are exceptions this season not the norm.

My concern relates to progression, I am not seeing the progression from mistakes made in previous matches to the other matches. If I saw that but we still had challenges or still lose then fair play. What did we do in the last match that didn't work? What did we do great? How do we build on the "what worked" while fixing the "what didn't" What I am seeing however is the same tactics the same approach the same style.
When Sarri did that last season the media started the no plan B agenda and fans run with it, at the moment I don't even think we have a plan A.

The start of the season I could see the plan, high press, direct quick play I don't see that anymore which begs the question what's our approach to games. Are we developing a identity?

Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results is mind boggling, every game you can see a pattern very early on and you pretty much can figure out the result, this is my concern. We were left with a very good base from Sarri to build on with only Hazard leaving which shouldn't affect our over system and framework.

The gist of what am trying to convey is there is a concern from me that we have regressed.

*The obvious caveat is we had no transfer window and that will change next season so I am still behind Lamps fully I just want to some identity grit fight not just against Tottenham or Arsenal away and that doesn't need a transfer window.

Excellent post, pretty much echoes my own thoughts.

I remain 100% behind Lampard, even though I know and fully accept that Frank is inexperienced as a Coach. I thought that he had enough quality people around him to help when things went wrong. Alas, this is NOT the case. Starting team selection, tactics, subs and game management all seem to be poor and getting worse. I wonder if our best signing could be an experienced older coach who could come in and mentor Frank, NOT take over.  Lauren Blanc, Arsene Wenger (ducks) Slavisa Jokanovich, or maybe even Chris Hughton. Radical yes, but I think at this stage of his development Frank needs someone to help him learn from his mistakes, instead of keeping on making them.

[chi blue]

Reading some of these posts looks like a few knifes are being sharpened for Frank, maybe the Sarri cult members are raising their ugly heads again? Let me just remind people last season we played total bull sh*t football, this season a transfer ban, bringing the youth through, Tammy from no where may lead the attack for England this summer, Reece James is developing superbly, Kovatic is a new man, Frank also has a clown of a keeper, and Kante looks on the wain to me and let's not forget Hazard, Eden Hazard the best player in the premiership over the last few seasons who left and without doubt would of won some of those poor games on his own recently. To be honest what ever happens this season the buzz I got marching out sh*te Hart Lane and the Emirates and singing all the way back to the underground will live long. UTC

[RMH]

17 hours ago, Brutos said:

I think Kloop would be doing better Pep hasn't proved anything with average players so he probably struggle but anyone thinking proven managers with average players wouldn't be doing better just don't want to address the fact that Lampard is showing signs on being out of his depth.

 

I am still fully behind him, he's still learning on the job, still has bags of potential but currently he looks like the least convincing at this moment in time and he is starting to show signs that he doesn't know how to turn this around which is worrying because even with class players in every position what is the guarantee he can get them to play together.

 

Granted no manager can absolutely guarantee success but you have a better chance with a proven one.

He finished 8th on his first season, granted it wasn't a full season, and was 2nd on his second season. So no, there's no proof that he'd do better with our present team.

[yorkleyblue]

I must admit, I was totally wrong about all this.   Back when Frank was announced as the new manager I said that regardless of transfer bans,  Hazard going and everyone saying they'd be happy with a mid-table finish, people would turn on Frank and specific scapegoats by November.

I am happy to say that was ridiculously pessimistic of me, given that,  for what appears to be quite a few in here, it has taken till mid-January.  Alright, there were the obvious muppets who started in October/November, I grant you,  but for most of the whining to be deferred this long makes my predictive skills look as good  as that on my old Nokia 3310

Edited January 23, 2020 by yorkleyblue
Missing comma - spoiled the sentence flow.

[yorkleyblue]

15 hours ago, Keitha313 said:

What annoys me most is Franks poor decision making, why take off Willian our more productive player in attack? It should have been Batshuayi off for Tammy, but for whatever reason Lampard constantly sticks to Tammy no matter how bad he plays and he has played bad even since the last Arsenal win the club had. A goal doesn't make me think he is playing good, good link-up play and making yourself open towards joining in the play like Harry Kane does that and being more clinical which he clearly struggles with. We take off Kante for one blunder and yes it was a bloody awful one, but Tammy misses sitters nearly every damn game but where is his punishment?

 

Lampard keeps Tammy on even though he did nothing for 94 minutes which in turn saw him get injured, slow clapping here... I think you'd be beyond biased to ignore the favouritism that Lampard is showing to certain people. People will mention the goal tally Abraham has which is good I put it down to great team work getting him as many, but for large parts the inconsistency and poor play its hard to watch Chelsea won't be winning the league with him playing like this he needs to improve a lot. Well now it looks like we're without a a starting striker, I wonder what dumb move he will do next maybe Mount as a false 9.

I think we have another one,  ladeeez and gennulmen!

[ducavis]

Did someone really say Klopp had a better team than Lamps has in his 1st season? He inherited a team with Clyne, Kolo Toure, Sakho, Moreno, Caulker with Skrtel the only quality in defence, midfield had Coutinho, Firmino, Benteke, Sturridge upfront. 

[abramovich]

19 hours ago, coco said:

That suggests he's some kind of fraud,  he's just a young manager on a learning curve, made difficult by the clubs previous transfer cock ups Baka zap drink morata kepa emerson..., plus the transfer ban. I dont think Pep or Klopp would of done much better with these players.

But we can't forget our earlier successes in the season, our youngsters scored the first ten goals if i remember right, then Pulisic chipped in when he got his chance. But the seniors have come up short, we cant keep relying on these kids, Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante, Barkley, Kepa, Emerson, Rudiger, Pedro, Michy, Giroud,....none of the seniors have shown up this season, were just paying them a living for zero back.

When Frank has replaced those players, then we can truly hold him to account, but not until.

 

 

 

I think that's the problem we as fans keep overlooking. Everybody is talking about youngsters and their struggles/or successes but it's the older players that failed to step up when we needed them the most. The lack of leadership is what bothers me the most and it's not a recent issue, we've been witnessing it for years now. Ten years ago we had Terry, Lamps, Drogba, Cole, Cech, Ivanovic etc. and they led by example. Can you imagine Kepa pulling the stunt that he did last season if we still had that core of veterans in the team, no chance of that happening.

Currently we're a soft side, both mentally and physically. Whether Frank is the right man to change that atmosphere within the club, I don't know, but we need to improve things drastically in that department and bringing the right kind of players not just in terms of talent but the right mental attitude is critically important. We need new leaders, whose ability on the pitch will match their strong competitive personality and desire to win at all costs. Right now, we have some experienced players, but they're no real leaders, and it hurts us as a team and sends the wrong message to our young talent.

[Dean]

Ok. These “Klopp is nothing special“ takes ive seen here and elsewhere couldn’t be more wrong. I know we hate Liverpool, but we shouldn’t let it blind us to what Klopp has achieved. It’s nothing short of phenomenal. He’s transformed the club completely, turned it into a global powerhouse. Ok he spent a lot of money, but so did a lot of other clubs, without anything like the same success. unlike some of them, Liverpool’s spending was a function of the incremental improvements that Klopp brought about since taking over and the boost to profitability that resulted. 
 

We all tend to underestimate how hard it is to coach a football team, let alone one at the top. There are myriad factors that need to be considered, from tactics, to fitness, to team spirit, to psychological factors - maintaining confidence, managing those egos and, the hardest thing of all, doing all these things consistently... he’s getting the absolute most out of both the stars and the not-so-good players, and there are a good few. What he did at Dortmund was also remarkable, and let’s not forget he had to work his way up without a reputation to propel him. If you’re looking for a premier league manager who may not be all he’s cracked up to be, Guardiola is your man, not Klopp. Whether we like it or not, Klopp is the gold standard in football coaching/management right now. I get that it’s hard to take but it’s the reality. 

[coco]

16 hours ago, 2211 said:

I can’t see any evidence of anything that’s been worked on in training, there’s literally nothing different from the week before.

I dont understand people saying nothing has changed, im sure they never really watch the games else they would notice things do change, those short corners have become way more effective than anything taken directly from the corner spot.  Willian and Callum have switched wings. The back line have had umpteen variations, same with the midfield.

The way you talk its like we have Sarri here again, who never hardly changed anything, and only when supporters got on his back did he do so.