On 01/01/2021 at 21:52, WhiteWall said:

By the same token if we had backed Conte after the first great season like we have Lampard what could we have achieved and where could we be now.

Perhaps we wouldn't have had the hissy fits and sh!t management in that second year and perhaps we could have started a new level of dominance of football instead of those dirty scousers

Conte would have spat his dummy out about something...he does it everywhere he goes

On 01/01/2021 at 19:29, bisright1 said:

Fact is Hazard had one of his best seasons under Sarri. I will always credit a manager for how the team plays. Hazard was a part of the team. Why people use Hazards performances AGAINST Sarri drives me insane.

Fact is also we never saw what Sarri would have done when Pulisic, Mount, James and Abraham added to his team (no one ever mentions the new additions lampard had for some reason. Mount is a player tailor made for Sarris style of football) and Hazard taken away. Because Sarri walked away or was sacked. 

In my opinion we'd have got more points and won the FA cup with him. Because Sarri is a more experienced and better manager than Lampard.

I don't mind different opinions on that because it's a hunch I have. I wish I could know what happened if a happy Sarri stayed for another season. We could well have seen our team go to another level like Napoli. We will never know.

I hope Lampard surpasses Sarri as a manager. But he hasn't yet. 

Sarri would not have picked the kids you’re taking about. England gave Hudson-Odoi a start before he did.

20 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

That loss to Villa was embarrassing in itself but no Liverpool fan was overly concerned. It was a freak result, one off blip that was not a reflection on their general style of football. The Liverpool fans I know even alot of reactions where congratulating Villa. Completely different to going on a run of 5 games with 1 win, lack of direction and not looking like scoring a threat to the oppositions goal.

Perhaps they're a little bit more concerned now with since failing to beat Brighton, Fulham, WBA and Newcastle!

22 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

That loss to Villa was embarrassing in itself but no Liverpool fan was overly concerned. It was a freak result, one off blip that was not a reflection on their general style of football. The Liverpool fans I know even alot of reactions where congratulating Villa. Completely different to going on a run of 5 games with 1 win, lack of direction and not looking like scoring a threat to the oppositions goal.

We haven't lost that badly to anyone part from Bayern and that Bayern is one of the most dominating teams in the last 10 years at least, CL title for them was a walk in the park.

Yes they lost 1 game while we lost a few more but I can't imagine that our fans would be totally fine if Villa had beaten us like that. Had we won Everton and Arsenal but lost to Villa by a 5 goals margin this sentiment about how we're under-achieving would still be present here and people would still be worrying about the next game against Man City.

After all, Villa only managed to score against us due to Christensen so we gifted them the goal there, but they scored 7 to the defending champions easy and could have scored more, that's a real embarrassment. Us winning 4:0 against Sevilla that has been a very tough opponent last season in Europe is a huge result, we embarrassed them.

Us losing to Arsenal 3:1 where Jorginho missed a penalty and where Arsenal scored from a penalty and had a fluke goal and a free kick goal isn't really embarrassing, losing 1:0 to Everton after Mendy gifted them a penalty isn't an embarrassing result either.

We didn't show up to win those games and we have been tactically poor, but the team didn't really have a game where we just surrendered and let everything in in a long time, part from playing Bayern in the CL.

Edited January 2, 20215 yr by Gol15

6 hours ago, coco said:

Sounds like a good win and performance against City will hurt a few on here more than the Arsenal defeat.

Why? Because they disagree with you?

7 hours ago, coco said:

Sounds like a good win and performance against City will hurt a few on here more than the Arsenal defeat.

And if we don't beat City, after all these players out, and you're so confident now, what will you say? "Well they're one of the best teams". 

10 hours ago, Nibs said:

Perhaps they're a little bit more concerned now with since failing to beat Brighton, Fulham, WBA and Newcastle!

Oh so no defeats in those games you listed then? I think they're still optimistic when they look at their performances against palace 7-0, wolves 4-0 and wins against Leicester and Spurs.

10 hours ago, Gol15 said:

We haven't lost that badly to anyone part from Bayern and that Bayern is one of the most dominating teams in the last 10 years at least, CL title for them was a walk in the park.

Yes they lost 1 game while we lost a few more but I can't imagine that our fans would be totally fine if Villa had beaten us like that. Had we won Everton and Arsenal but lost to Villa by a 5 goals margin this sentiment about how we're under-achieving would still be present here and people would still be worrying about the next game against Man City.

After all, Villa only managed to score against us due to Christensen so we gifted them the goal there, but they scored 7 to the defending champions easy and could have scored more, that's a real embarrassment. Us winning 4:0 against Sevilla that has been a very tough opponent last season in Europe is a huge result, we embarrassed them.

Us losing to Arsenal 3:1 where Jorginho missed a penalty and where Arsenal scored from a penalty and had a fluke goal and a free kick goal isn't really embarrassing, losing 1:0 to Everton after Mendy gifted them a penalty isn't an embarrassing result either.

We didn't show up to win those games and we have been tactically poor, but the team didn't really have a game where we just surrendered and let everything in in a long time, part from playing Bayern in the CL.

I disagree.

If Chelsea won he the title this season with absolute ease, looking by far and away the best team in the league (akin to 2005) and realistically look like retaining the title again, one freak result so early in the season will not concern fans or be a major drama.

Remember that FA Cup game we lost to was it Bradford? I was there but when we lost, I laughed with embarrassment and shock but didn't lose any sleep as the focus and confidence was winning the leaghe. 

I know Villa was a league game but Liverpool fans are confident and know they are the best team in the league. Retaining the title is likely and one freak result won't dampen that. They wouldn't trade that 7-2 for a run of 4 or 5 losses in 6 games that risks their league position.

.

Back to Frank. I really want him to do well and succeed but I cannot see it. You can only judge a manager based of their teams consistently performances. Whilst we were backing him, many rival fans do not rate Frank at all as a manager. 

At the end of the day you're judged off your results not your status as current legend. Its simple, you achieve the expectations of the club, the fans love you and the board keep you. If you underachieve and show consistently bad performances then a large chunk of fans will no longer back you and the board will sack you. 

Thats how it works in team based sports. No need for anyone to get defensive and throw digs because it's Lamps. I care about my club more than any individual.

1 minute ago, KonaKai Blue said:

 Whilst we were backing him, many rival fans do not rate Frank at all as a manager. 

11 hours ago, The Brit said:

Sarri would not have picked the kids you’re taking about. England gave Hudson-Odoi a start before he did.

Sarri played CHO quite a lot, he just was patient with him. He also gave RLC his breakthrough season. 

We have absolutely no idea whether he would have played the kids. Sarri isn't a f**king idiot. Mount is class and a perfect Sarri player, Reece James is world class and we were forced to play Abraham. All 3 would have got their chance under Sarri same as CHO. 

All too often people blamed Sarri for everything that went wrong and praise something else for what went right. CHO is an example of that. Sarri is blamed for him not playing and everyone but Sarri is praised for CHO developing from youth player to first teamer by the end of the season. Sarri was the first manager to do that for modern chelsea. 

The biggest failing of Sarri was how unlikable he was. Because of that people like you never gave him any credit for anything that went right. 

 

 

4 hours ago, abramovich said:

Why? Because they disagree with you?

Because they're agenda will be blown out of the water, and they'll have to wait for the next crisis to come around before they log in.

16 hours ago, abramovich said:

I hate it when people start with 'we don't have the divine right to win' stuff. This tired line is an ever popular cliche straight from the 'Things Losers Say' bin. Can you imagine a truly successful manager say that to their team? I'm sure Frank never said that to his players either, because the moment those words are uttered, you basically admit you're a loser. Whether it's Mourinho's siege mentality approach or whatever Pep, Klopp or any other top manager uses to motivate their teams to overcome opponents and win trophies, I guarantee you accepting losing is not part of it. Every team loses at some point, it's how they react to a loss is what separates them. 

 

Nobody claimed that a manager tells their team they don't have the right to win every match, what an odd thing to ramble on about. It's supporters who say it, and they (me among them) are realistic. No team wins everything, practically every team goes through highs and lows in a season as well as through the years, and the realistic supporters know this. Does that mean they are indifferent when their club loses? No, certainly not, it can spoil my mood big time (if I can take myself as an example), and I feel buoyed when my club does well. But I'm also philosophical about it: whatever Chelsea does on the pitch may influence my mood, but it doesn't influence my life. And that is what makes me not panic or indignantly claim outside the top 4 is unacceptable; I don't feel we "should" win against top 10 clubs because we bought a score of expensive players. Because those expensive players are young people in new jobs trying to work with others, some of which are  also in a new job. That takes time, and their boss also needs time to make them work together. And sometimes not everybody is available at the same time. My conclusion: be patient and accept that things don't always go as you hope and want, don't feel entitled to success. And in the meantime the players and staff should work their socks off to make their supporters feel buoyed in their everyday life.

14 minutes ago, coco said:

Because they're agenda will be blown out of the water, and they'll have to wait for the next crisis to come around before they log in.

I can only hope you aren't referring to me and others you've recently debated with on this subject, because there's no agenda against Frank here. Yeah you get the trolls and the negative people who only join or pop up when we are losing but don't start throwing about agenda loosely just because some people on here are sceptical that Frank is the right man for the job. 

6 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I can only hope you aren't referring to me and others you've recently debated with on this subject, because there's no agenda against Frank here. Yeah you get the trolls and the negative people who only join or pop up when we are losing but don't start throwing about agenda loosely just because some people on here are sceptical that Frank is the right man for the job. 

Not you no,

49 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Sarri played CHO quite a lot, he just was patient with him. He also gave RLC his breakthrough season. 

We have absolutely no idea whether he would have played the kids. Sarri isn't a f**king idiot. Mount is class and a perfect Sarri player, Reece James is world class and we were forced to play Abraham. All 3 would have got their chance under Sarri same as CHO. 

All too often people blamed Sarri for everything that went wrong and praise something else for what went right. CHO is an example of that. Sarri is blamed for him not playing and everyone but Sarri is praised for CHO developing from youth player to first teamer by the end of the season. Sarri was the first manager to do that for modern chelsea. 

The biggest failing of Sarri was how unlikable he was. Because of that people like you never gave him any credit for anything that went right. 

 

 

Sarri only started playing Hudson-Odoi after he handed in a transfer request and the club were trying to persuade him to sign a new deal instead of going to bayern. He still only started four times in the Premier League, Loftus-Cheek six. 

I compare Sarri to rafa...those that say he did a good job will point to winning the europa league and qualifying for the champions league...but those that don't rate what either did have their reasons and don't rely on what those two 'achievements' say on paper.  

40 minutes ago, The Brit said:

compare Sarri to rafa...those that say he did a good job will point to winning the europa league and qualifying for the champions league...but those that don't rate what either did have their reasons and don't rely on what those two 'achievements' say on paper.  

But pretty good considering both were almost universally hated by the fans especially Benitez. Sarri did give us Baku so I'll always have a soft spot for him.

1 hour ago, The Brit said:

Sarri only started playing Hudson-Odoi after he handed in a transfer request and the club were trying to persuade him to sign a new deal instead of going to bayern. He still only started four times in the Premier League, Loftus-Cheek six. 

I compare Sarri to rafa...those that say he did a good job will point to winning the europa league and qualifying for the champions league...but those that don't rate what either did have their reasons and don't rely on what those two 'achievements' say on paper.  

Sarri was a self centered twat who didn't listen to the fans, continued to play kante out of position, persisted with his possession based tactics despite the fans being bored with it, however for some reason, he bent to the will of an 18 year old and a board of a club he was planning on quitting anyway. 

I rather think Sarri did what Sarri wanted to do. Everything that happened to chelsea was Sarris plan. If you blame him for everything wrong then praise him for what went right. 

I also think Benitez was good for us! But he was a twat. Like Sarri. They both couldn't stay because they didn't get the fans onside. However I'm not going to slag off his achievements because I didn't like either of them and CHO and RLC breaking into the first team was an achievement of Sarri. 

Keeping it on track, I'll praise and criticise lampard for what he does. He is responsible for havertz and werner not performing, he is responsible for our cross first style of football, he is responsible if we finish mid table. And he is responsible if we win the champions league. 

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by bisright1

1 hour ago, Valerie said:

Nobody claimed that a manager tells their team they don't have the right to win every match, what an odd thing to ramble on about. It's supporters who say it, and they (me among them) are realistic. No team wins everything, practically every team goes through highs and lows in a season as well as through the years, and the realistic supporters know this. Does that mean they are indifferent when their club loses? No, certainly not, it can spoil my mood big time (if I can take myself as an example), and I feel buoyed when my club does well. But I'm also philosophical about it: whatever Chelsea does on the pitch may influence my mood, but it doesn't influence my life. And that is what makes me not panic or indignantly claim outside the top 4 is unacceptable; I don't feel we "should" win against top 10 clubs because we bought a score of expensive players. Because those expensive players are young people in new jobs trying to work with others, some of which are  also in a new job. That takes time, and their boss also needs time to make them work together. And sometimes not everybody is available at the same time. My conclusion: be patient and accept that things don't always go as you hope and want, don't feel entitled to success. And in the meantime the players and staff should work their socks off to make their supporters feel buoyed in their everyday life.

While I agree with much of what is being said here Valerie, including that there is no divine right to win every game. I like many others on this forum have been following the club since the 60's and before the military whisked me away, followed by living abroad in the 80's I haven't had the opportunity to go to games home and away as I did as a teenager; even when I do come home on the odd occasion as tickets are hard to get hold of, but like a large majority I am still invested emotionally so getting beat by a bunch of w**kers every so often f**ks up my day especially when its Arsenal,  (my list of clubs has become extensive over the years).  I expect that there are many of us, including yourself that have witnessed many lows over the years and we were fortunate and thankful that Roman purchased the club or God knows where we would be right now.  Roman raised the bar of every club within the league and raised the clubs expectations which have never faltered...failure is not an option, for any manager regardless of who they are, reputation is secondary, the club comes first and so it is for Frank.  The club did not invest 200+ million to be languishing in mid-table (we are only 6th on goal difference) fighting off the likes of Villa, Wolves, Southampton and the West Ham's of the world. It's  not the recent losses that's the worry for me, as you said no team has a divine right to win every game, but its the way we are losing and the turgid football we have put on display for a while is the concern and that falls squarely on the managers shoulders....new boys or not they are professional footballers, lets be honest..the job ain't that difficult, the only thing they have to learn is tactics..nothing else.  There is no-one showing them how to kick, pass or control a ball they already know that or they wouldn't be here, they are not apprentices or this is their first job; Frank has had 5 months with the new boys plus last season with a majority of the players, yet he doesn't appear (from what I'm seeing anyway) to be improving in his tactical approach before and within the game itself to change the outcome, and while he continues in this manner he will fail and remember ....failure is not an option for this club regardless of who you are.  

1 hour ago, Valerie said:

Nobody claimed that a manager tells their team they don't have the right to win every match, what an odd thing to ramble on about. It's supporters who say it, and they (me among them) are realistic. No team wins everything, practically every team goes through highs and lows in a season as well as through the years, and the realistic supporters know this. Does that mean they are indifferent when their club loses? No, certainly not, it can spoil my mood big time (if I can take myself as an example), and I feel buoyed when my club does well. But I'm also philosophical about it: whatever Chelsea does on the pitch may influence my mood, but it doesn't influence my life. And that is what makes me not panic or indignantly claim outside the top 4 is unacceptable; I don't feel we "should" win against top 10 clubs because we bought a score of expensive players. Because those expensive players are young people in new jobs trying to work with others, some of which are  also in a new job. That takes time, and their boss also needs time to make them work together. And sometimes not everybody is available at the same time. My conclusion: be patient and accept that things don't always go as you hope and want, don't feel entitled to success. And in the meantime the players and staff should work their socks off to make their supporters feel buoyed in their everyday life.

Well, when those fans say, we don't have the divine right to win every match, who do they mean by 'we'? You? Me? Themselves? Or professional footballers of CFC? Because that's who I'm talking about, just to be clear, and I assume that's who we're discussing here, on a football forum. So once again, my personal opinion is that it's the wrong attitude for a team that aims to win things.

Also, your idea of 'realistic' may differ from mine or some other posters. Expecting a top four finish with the squad we've got  isn't unrealistic at all, in fact it's quite reasonable, given our depth and overall quality, at least that's how I see it. As far as the 'young people' argument, they're not that young and we've got plenty of experienced players, too.

So here's my conclusion: everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they've got and no one has a right to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't think or how to manage their expectations, we're all adults here, so no need to patronize.

3 hours ago, coco said:

Because they're agenda will be blown out of the water, and they'll have to wait for the next crisis to come around before they log in.

Who exactly are you talking about? The trolls that pop up only when we lose don't stick around long enough to have a discussion with. Whose agenda? Mine?

12 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Well, when those fans say, we don't have the divine right to win every match, who do they mean by 'we'? You? Me? Themselves? Or professional footballers of CFC? Because that's who I'm talking about, just to be clear, and I assume that's who we're discussing here, on a football forum. So once again, my personal opinion is that it's the wrong attitude for a team that aims to win things.

Also, your idea of 'realistic' may differ from mine or some other posters. Expecting a top four finish with the squad we've got  isn't unrealistic at all, in fact it's quite reasonable, given our depth and overall quality, at least that's how I see it. As far as the 'young people' argument, they're not that young and we've got plenty of experienced players, too.

So here's my conclusion: everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they've got and no one has a right to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't think or how to manage their expectations, we're all adults here, so no need to patronize.

To be fair Valerie wasn't telling anyone what to think she was merely expressing her opinions  and how she sees things in a different light to others. 

 

1 hour ago, CFCCAN said:

While I agree with much of what is being said here Valerie, including that there is no divine right to win every game. I like many others on this forum have been following the club since the 60's and before the military whisked me away, followed by living abroad in the 80's I haven't had the opportunity to go to games home and away as I did as a teenager; even when I do come home on the odd occasion as tickets are hard to get hold of, but like a large majority I am still invested emotionally so getting beat by a bunch of w**kers every so often f**ks up my day especially when its Arsenal,  (my list of clubs has become extensive over the years).  I expect that there are many of us, including yourself that have witnessed many lows over the years and we were fortunate and thankful that Roman purchased the club or God knows where we would be right now.  Roman raised the bar of every club within the league and raised the clubs expectations which have never faltered...failure is not an option, for any manager regardless of who they are, reputation is secondary, the club comes first and so it is for Frank.  The club did not invest 200+ million to be languishing in mid-table (we are only 6th on goal difference) fighting off the likes of Villa, Wolves, Southampton and the West Ham's of the world. It's  not the recent losses that's the worry for me, as you said no team has a divine right to win every game, but its the way we are losing and the turgid football we have put on display for a while is the concern and that falls squarely on the managers shoulders....new boys or not they are professional footballers, lets be honest..the job ain't that difficult, the only thing they have to learn is tactics..nothing else.  There is no-one showing them how to kick, pass or control a ball they already know that or they wouldn't be here, they are not apprentices or this is their first job; Frank has had 5 months with the new boys plus last season with a majority of the players, yet he doesn't appear (from what I'm seeing anyway) to be improving in his tactical approach before and within the game itself to change the outcome, and while he continues in this manner he will fail and remember ....failure is not an option for this club regardless of who you are.  

The "failure is not an option" line gives me an creepy impression of fanaticism that doesn't sit well with me at all. Apart from the fact that of course failure is an option - we're dealing with humans after all - every supporter of every club that has invested an incredible amount of money thinks their club should perform perfectly and play lovely football at the same time. Not every club can do that, that's why it's a competition, only one club can win its league. The pressure players and managers are under is enormous, even in a normal season it can be hard for new players to find their feet. I have always needed plenty of time to adjust to a new situation (think schools or jobs), and I know many people who also need time; why would that be different for football players.

Lampard makes mistakes, the players make mistakes, shock horror! It's quite clearly not smooth sailing and everybody needs to improve, I think we're all in agreement about that. And at the moment that's where the discussion halts IMO. Either the supporters are patient and give players and manager time to improve (and recover from injuries and for once get a fit squad, pleasepleaseplease), or demand the umpteenth new manager and the umpteenth overhall of the squad a new manager inevitably wants. The third option, the ones who exactly know how things should be run march off to Cobham to help Lampard et al. out, doesn't seem feasable 

15 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Who exactly are you talking about? The trolls that pop up only when we lose don't stick around long enough to have a discussion with. Whose agenda? Mine?

Your'e not on my radar.

23 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Well, when those fans say, we don't have the divine right to win every match, who do they mean by 'we'? You? Me? Themselves? Or professional footballers of CFC? Because that's who I'm talking about, just to be clear, and I assume that's who we're discussing here, on a football forum. So once again, my personal opinion is that it's the wrong attitude for a team that aims to win things.

Also, your idea of 'realistic' may differ from mine or some other posters. Expecting a top four finish with the squad we've got  isn't unrealistic at all, in fact it's quite reasonable, given our depth and overall quality, at least that's how I see it. As far as the 'young people' argument, they're not that young and we've got plenty of experienced players, too.

So here's my conclusion: everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they've got and no one has a right to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't think or how to manage their expectations, we're all adults here, so no need to patronize.

No need to patronize, he said patronizingly.

As The Rising Sun said, I was not telling anybody how to think or feel. I was explaining what is behind my own use of "no divine right to win".