5 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Points per game...

Though to be fair, the premier league is alot harder now than it was under most of the managers on that list. Also this is probably one of our weakest team/squad we have had since Roman bought the club. We have some bad luck, and injuries. I mean its January and we only just got to see a front 3 of Werner Pulisic and Ziyech today because of injuries, and i think thats our best front 3.

1 minute ago, Brutos said:

Lampard praising Mount post game FFS 🤦‍♂️ 

Plays every minute of every game.....

1 minute ago, Brutos said:

Lampard praising Mount post game FFS 🤦‍♂️ 

As big as a fan as I am of Mount, he’s been average at best for a while now. I know he’s a young lad but he could do with a rest. 

1 minute ago, jack_super_class said:

Though to be fair, the premier league is alot harder now than it was under most of the managers on that list. Also this is probably one of our weakest team/squad we have had since Roman bought the club. We have some bad luck, and injuries. I mean its January and we only just got to see a front 3 of Werner Pulisic and Ziyech today because of injuries, and i think thats our best front 3.

Big disagree there, our team in 2011-2012 area was terrible. Old ageing squad with no creativity or pace, then we had that big season where we bought Oscar, Hazard and a few others all in one window. 

I think this side we have is a good side, they're just not performing. 

7 minutes ago, Brutos said:

That’s horrid 

So if the Lamps out brigade get their wish he officially becomes the worst manager since roman bought the club, points wise...jeez.

1 minute ago, Slojo said:

Big disagree there, our team in 2011-2012 area was terrible. Old ageing squad with no creativity or pace, then we had that big season where we bought Oscar, Hazard and a few others all in one window. 

I think this side we have is a good side, they're just not performing. 

I agree its not our worst, thats why i said one of our weakest. Or maybe im being harsh on this team.

This looks like even Silva has lost it because even he looks clueless today the player’s are not busting a gut for Lampard this issue seems deeper.

Just now, Slojo said:

How's it ridiculous exactly? 

If we didn't sack AVB we wouldn't have won an F.A Cup and our only ever Champions League. What's this "give until the end of the season" obsession if a manager clearly isn't meeting his expected targets? If he's not the man for the job, then he's not the man for the job, I think there's more than enough evidence to summarise that. Given the lack of CV that he already had, he doesn't get that luxury, that's the reality. We have no evidence that Frank can turn this around because he doesn't have a top football manager pedigree. We've seen things, good things, but we've also seen some terrible things. This is Chelsea football club, we win things, we've been winning things for years now, why do we have to lower out standards and expectations? Because Frani sa club legend? If this was Chris Hughton in charge, I can bet most of the forum right now would want him sacked on the spot. 

I don't see why it's a stupid idea to move on from a manager who is badly underperforming and has no proven background to fall back on, when we can still salvage the season like we have before numerous times in the past. Call it an endless cycle if you wish, that endless cycle has also won us many trophies in return. 

How is it not ridiculous? Are you suggesting that we should now sack managers for a month of poor form? if that'd been our policy then Jose would have gone sooner both times, Conte would've gone after the Arsenal defeat, no league title there. AVB had a much, much better squad and proven players, the circumstances are incomparable.

There is no "obsession" with managers getting to the end of the season, I'm saying that our manager right now deserves at least until the end of the season to see what he can do with this squad when we eventually come out of this poor form, we'll have no idea if he can meet his "expected targets" if Roman knee-jerks and sacks him now!

I've seen more than enough from him to see he COULD be the man to take us on further if given the time to do so, we just went 16 games unbeaten for f**k sake!. He got us into the top 4 last season when at the start most people outside the club and few on here felt we had any right to be getting there. He's recognised the talent in our youth squad and made use of it, make no mistake at all, if Frank hadn't played them then those players would be stagnating on loan at Vitesse or on Burnley's bench. They would not be playing for us. and I think many under-estimate the courage it took to actually use them. There are obviously improvements to make if we are to progress and challenge for anything but Frank for me deserves and has earnt the time to see if he's the one to take us forward.

Just now, jack_super_class said:

I agree its not our worst, thats why i said one of our weakest. Or maybe im being harsh on this team.

I'm not sure if the league is even harder either, or if every top side is just sh*t. The Champions League last season pretty much confirmed that, lets see if it does again this season. 

But Scolari was the worst out of that bunch by far, the team he had at the time... Definitely the worst for me. AVB though imo inherited the worst Chelsea side out of any manager here, I actually felt sorry for him, he had to play with Torres up front, ageing players and we chased Modric all summer just to end up with Raul Meireles. We only signed 3 players for him in the summer, Lukaku (18 years old, didn't play), Meireles and Mata. 

I really do think it is more of a tactical issue than the players being bad right now, and that doesn't look good for Lampard.

I have said this a few times over the past few years now, why are we playing a style of football that doesn't suit the majority of our players? We have been playing possession based football since Sarri was bought in, but who have we bought in to fit that style of football? One player, Jorginho. Even the summer signings were all bought from clubs that don't play that type of football, so why are we persisting with it? It just makes no sense too me. 

We buy Werner, Havertz, Chilwell, Silva and Ziyech. None of them played for teams that played possession based football that I can remember, so why the f**k are we sticking with it? You play the system that gets the best out of your players, but we haven't been doing that for years now.

2 minutes ago, jack h said:

How is it not ridiculous? Are you suggesting that we should now sack managers for a month of poor form? if that'd been our policy then Jose would have gone sooner both times, Conte would've gone after the Arsenal defeat, no league title there. AVB had a much, much better squad and proven players, the circumstances are incomparable.

Jose gone sooner both times? That wouldn't have been terrible then would it. And Conte gone after 2 months? Don't be silly. That's clearly not the same, Lampard has been here for 18 months now, big difference. We've never booted a manager out that quickly in his first season, not even AVB. 

And how did AVB have a much better squad? He had to play with Torres up front and Daniel Sturridge out wide for the full season. On top of that 34 year old Lampard, Ramires and Mikel in his midfield. Yeah we won the CL with Di Matteo in an absolute freak season, but there's a reason we went out and spent over 200 million in the summer after. 

On paper we have some great players here and we should be doing much much better. You're telling me Ziyech, Pulisic, Giroud, Werner, Abraham, CHO weren't better options than Torres, Sturridge, Mata, Malouda, Kalou, Anelka and Drogba at the time? Considering how old and badly Drogs, Anelka and Malouda were at that time and the season before with Carlo? Come off it. It's easy looking at the old guard now but back then in 2011/12 before Di Matteo took over they stunk the place out big time because each and every one of them were in their 30's and exiting their primes, or already had with the exception of John Terry. Frank, Drogba, Anelka, Malouda, Cole had already left their primes by then despite the solid performances they put in the Champions League that season. 

This team is 100% more creative and fast paced than that team was. 

1 minute ago, Scott Harris said:

I really do think it is more of a tactical issue than the players being bad right now, and that doesn't look good for Lampard.

I have said this a few times over the past few years now, why are we playing a style of football that doesn't suit the majority of our players? We have been playing possession based football since Sarri was bought in, but who have we bought in to fit that style of football? One player, Jorginho. Even the summer signings were all bought from clubs that don't play that type of football, so why are we persisting with it? It just makes no sense too me. 

We buy Werner, Havertz, Chilwell, Silva and Ziyech. None of them played for teams that played possession based football that I can remember, so why the f**k are we sticking with it? You play the system that gets the best out of your players, but we haven't been doing that for years now.

Exactly.You would think that Frank would be keen to play counter attacking style considering he spent 90% of his career playing in those sort of systems.

 

11 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I really do think it is more of a tactical issue than the players being bad right now, and that doesn't look good for Lampard.

I have said this a few times over the past few years now, why are we playing a style of football that doesn't suit the majority of our players? We have been playing possession based football since Sarri was bought in, but who have we bought in to fit that style of football? One player, Jorginho. Even the summer signings were all bought from clubs that don't play that type of football, so why are we persisting with it? It just makes no sense too me. 

We buy Werner, Havertz, Chilwell, Silva and Ziyech. None of them played for teams that played possession based football that I can remember, so why the f**k are we sticking with it? You play the system that gets the best out of your players, but we haven't been doing that for years now.

This buys into what I am thinking now in that certain players are not buying into his methods especially the senior player’s seems they have lost confidence in him and don’t believe his methods are working. 
Think about the players we have the experience ones and who they have worked with as managers now think about those players working with a inexperience manager with methods they have seen before tactics they have seen before that didn’t work. 

Edited January 3, 20215 yr by Brutos

Well its starts from the back, (Not keeper), if you have a centre half who is rubbish on the ball, then his nervousness on the ball is there for the opposition to see, we cant get the ball to the midfield, we go right across the back 4 sometimes, we don't really play with width unless Alonso or James overlap, a midfield has no creativity, just functional players like Henderson used to be, Werner makes run after run, but no one can pick him out , CHO scored a good goal tonight, but City had switched off by then.
 Lampards problems are massive, Gilmour looks excellent on the ball, a younger fitter Jorginho, but he needs a Destroyer to give him the ball and let him dictate play, Mount is good but limited so far, Kova flatters to deceive, and Havertz will get better, but does he play as a 10 or the 8, quicken the passing ,stretch the opposition, and hope Gilmour or Havertz can find Werner and his runs.

I don't think some people on here are aware of the fact that we collected only 26 points from 17 games.

To be honest when I saw the starting XI I thought Lamps more or less had the right idea. Personally I probably would have started Hudson-Odoi on the right over Ziyech, but Werner central and Pulisic on the left running towards the penalty area was probably as similar to Leicester/Tottenham's counter-attacking template as we could muster.

I know Man City have been somewhat more conservative of late but it seems that picking a pacy forward line to play on the shoulders of their centre backs and putting balls in front of them is how you score against Man City. Of course that idea actually working is predicated on having deeper players who are either willing or able to play those central balls over the top of the opposition defence. I counted two attempts in the first ten minutes (Zouma and Silva), and until Gilmour came on we tried to play every subsequent attack through the wide men. This of course didn't play to Werner's strengths at all, especially when we went so far behind so early.

My questions would be:

a) Why set up with players who are best suited to execute one particular strategy then actually play in a different way which is completely counter to their strengths?

b) Why keep persisting with this when we've seen it's not working whatsoever and is directly responsible for us being flattened all over the pitch?

c) Why (even moreso) keep persisting with this when you're 3-0 down, when the strategy is designed to exploit the weaknesses of a team who are trying to win the game rather a team who are miles ahead and coasting?

 

It was totally illogical game management from Lampard, and it is certainly not the first time I've been baffled by some of his decision-making.

 

It is undeniable that Lamps brings positives to the club as a manager. His recruitment (and his ability to seduce players) has been fantastic. He is the first Chelsea manager this millennium to successfully integrate our youth players into the first team. He has a genuine liaison with the fans (although I suppose that is less relevant at the moment with the stadium empty). He got us into the top 4 last season with our weird ragtag squad, no new signings (other than Pulisic) and under the bizarre circumstances of the national lockdown.

Unfortunately it's not clear at all currently that he is any kind of tactician, a consistently good man manager, a capable game manager, or a very good coach. I don't think that it is necessarily anathema (or disloyalty) for the board to wonder whether another manager might be doing a better job with the current squad (because in all likelihood a number of others would be).

One thing that does give me hope is that more or less every single other part of Frank Lampard's football career has been characterised by a slow start, followed by an inexorable rise to greatness through sheer grit, work rate, and desire. I don't necessarily think the criticisms I made earlier on (and they are very significant flaws for a manager at the top level to have) are things that Lampard can't or won't eventually improve upon... lest we forget he is a manager halfway through his third season. The question is how long can we give him to learn at our helm while an incredibly good squad keeps underperforming to such an extent?

 

Unfortunately, we are getting close to the point where, if our intention is to genuinely compete at the top level*, the only argument to keep Lampard is sheer loyalty...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Admittedly this does get into the debate of what you want from your team as a football fan.

Just thinking back over Lamps 18 months here, how many games against top 8 teams have we won with a back 4? Must be less than 3. Maybe Everton and arsenal last season season although not sure either were top 8 at the time. 

Maybe the style he wants to play works better with a back 3? 

1 minute ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Well its starts from the back, (Not keeper), if you have a centre half who is rubbish on the ball, then his nervousness on the ball is there for the opposition to see, we cant get the ball to the midfield, we go right across the back 4 sometimes, we don't really play with width unless Alonso or James overlap, a midfield has no creativity, just functional players like Henderson used to be, Werner makes run after run, but no one can pick him out , CHO scored a good goal tonight, but City had switched off by then.
 Lampards problems are massive, Gilmour looks excellent on the ball, a younger fitter Jorginho, but he needs a Destroyer to give him the ball and let him dictate play, Mount is good but limited so far, Kova flatters to deceive, and Havertz will get better, but does he play as a 10 or the 8, quicken the passing ,stretch the opposition, and hope Gilmour or Havertz can find Werner and his runs.

Well if you're hoping that a 19 year old will save our season it just puts things into perspective.

And what is a destroyer?

Bring back me

The post match comments just confirm my fears, he isn't getting it. 

City stopped playing at 3-0, the game was done so talk of competing for 20 minutes at the end is delusional. 

I love the man, he is a hero to us all but as a manager at this level he is lacking big time. No shame as seasoned successful managers have struggled here. 

It won't get any better I'm afraid, he simply doesn't know how to set us up or motivate his squad. 

9 minutes ago, mm24 said:

I don't think some people on here are aware of the fact that we collected only 26 points from 17 games.

And we are worse than last season despite spending £200M

5 minutes ago, TomCFC85 said:

Bring back me

Sarri had his Jorginho, will you have your Alex Sandro?

9 minutes ago, mm24 said:

Well if you're hoping that a 19 year old will save our season it just puts things into perspective.

And what is a destroyer?

He is as good an option as anything we have, if you're good enough, you're old enough, My destroyer, i'm not screaming for Rice, but Rice, or someone like Sergej Milinković-Savić would do, and desperately need Christensen to turn into a more Cahillesque type player, (Never going to be like JT)
 

17 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

lest we forget he is a manager halfway through his third season. The question is how long can we give him to learn at our helm while an incredibly good squad keeps underperforming to such an extent?

 

 

This sums it up very well. No matter what happens, nothing will take away the fact that Frank is a Chelsea LEGEND. And there's nothing to say that he can't be a fantastic manager one day in the future.

But if you can take a moment to think logically and clearly, the fact is that this job might have come a bit too early for Frank in his managerial career. And as I have said before, it wasn't his fault that the job was handed to him. If Frank eventually get sacked, I blame the board rather than Frank.

 

 

28 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

To be honest when I saw the starting XI I thought Lamps more or less had the right idea. Personally I probably would have started Hudson-Odoi on the right over Ziyech, but Werner central and Pulisic on the left running towards the penalty area was probably as similar to Leicester/Tottenham's counter-attacking template as we could muster.

I know Man City have been somewhat more conservative of late but it seems that picking a pacy forward line to play on the shoulders of their centre backs and putting balls in front of them is how you score against Man City. Of course that idea actually working is predicated on having deeper players who are either willing or able to play those central balls over the top of the opposition defence. I counted two attempts in the first ten minutes (Zouma and Silva), and until Gilmour came on we tried to play every subsequent attack through the wide men. This of course didn't play to Werner's strengths at all, especially when we went so far behind so early.

My questions would be:

a) Why set up with players who are best suited to execute one particular strategy then actually play in a different way which is completely counter to their strengths?

b) Why keep persisting with this when we've seen it's not working whatsoever and is directly responsible for us being flattened all over the pitch?

c) Why (even moreso) keep persisting with this when you're 3-0 down, when the strategy is designed to exploit the weaknesses of a team who are trying to win the game rather a team who are miles ahead and coasting?

 

It was totally illogical game management from Lampard, and it is certainly not the first time I've been baffled by some of his decision-making.

 

It is undeniable that Lamps brings positives to the club as a manager. His recruitment (and his ability to seduce players) has been fantastic. He is the first Chelsea manager this millennium to successfully integrate our youth players into the first team. He has a genuine liaison with the fans (although I suppose that is less relevant at the moment with the stadium empty). He got us into the top 4 last season with our weird ragtag squad, no new signings (other than Pulisic) and under the bizarre circumstances of the national lockdown.

Unfortunately it's not clear at all currently that he is any kind of tactician, a consistently good man manager, a capable game manager, or a very good coach. I don't think that it is necessarily anathema (or disloyalty) for the board to wonder whether another manager might be doing a better job with the current squad (because in all likelihood a number of others would be).

One thing that does give me hope is that more or less every single other part of Frank Lampard's football career has been characterised by a slow start, followed by an inexorable rise to greatness through sheer grit, work rate, and desire. I don't necessarily think the criticisms I made earlier on (and they are very significant flaws for a manager at the top level to have) are things that Lampard can't or won't eventually improve upon... lest we forget he is a manager halfway through his third season. The question is how long can we give him to learn at our helm while an incredibly good squad keeps underperforming to such an extent?

 

Unfortunately, we are getting close to the point where, if our intention is to genuinely compete at the top level*, the only argument to keep Lampard is sheer loyalty...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Admittedly this does get into the debate of what you want from your team as a football fan.

Great post