2 hours ago, coco said:

No manager in our history has had to deal with as much turmoil in their first 2 seasons.

Inheriting the worst defence in our modern history, losing the third best player in the World at the time, then the little matter of the transfer ban, which amplified the affects of the bad defence and losing Eden. That was just the first season, the next season we have the pandemic, players getting covid, no fans, all our wingers were injured at a key time of the season and our good run came to an end.

For those unique reasons he should get his third season, just because it hasn't happened before under RA, it doesn't mean it won't happen. 

If Frank were to only get two seasons, he can count himself very unlucky, he got the two most negatively unique seasons in our history.

You made some really good points there, and I actually agree. 

But given our performances last month, how do they sit with you? Really? Or how about that Arsenal game, how does that game actually sit with you? And no excuses, no Arsenal took their chances, or it was down to luck and defensive errors, how does that match really sit with you? I've seen us get wholloped 6-0 by City, I've seen us fail to beat a 10 man PSG when we had a 2-0 lead with 30 minutes spare, I saw us lose 4-1 to Watford. But I've never seen a performance like that in my life, we got outplayed and bullied by a team full of kids, there's just no excusing it. I've never felt so embarrassed as a fan as I did that night, even after all those matches I just brought up. 

After that game, can you really say to yourself, this team can go on to win titles? After a performance like that? That to me was similar to Wenger's Arsenal when they got beat 3-2 at Old Trafford and Van Gaal played a team full of kids, the same type of mentality, bottle jobs. For me that game was the tipping point, I know what you're thinking "it's just a game" but that game symbolised where we are under this leadership, and why we won't win things. Am I going too far here? But I just don't know how we can expect to win things when our players can go so low and play so bad, like a derby doesn't even matter for them.

To just go back to those results I brought up earlier, City were an amazing team, won the league, PSG again, quality team, world class players, Watford game Bakayoko, got sent off in about 30 minutes, it was a catastrophe, got hit on the counters. That Arsenal game? No excuse, we got bullied by the biggest bottle jobs in the Premier League, and their kids at that, in their worst season in 30 years, it was frightening to see. I don't think as a fan, I can put my trust in this team again after performance like that, that I've just seen. Call me dramatic, call me negative, fickle, whatever, that's my verdict on the matter and it's truly how I feel. I envy you and many others that can stick with Frank in these grim times, but I truly can't understand it. 

@Slojo

The Arsenal match was terrible, i'm not for one minute trying to cover up our Franks shortcomings of late. He has no excuses for getting it wrong, but we have no excuses if we stupidly expect him to achieve something at this club without falling down at some point along the way.

 

2 hours ago, coco said:

I'm not so sure, i think/hope the club has turned the corner on short-temism.

Let's hope so, our Academy is a superb back up for the club, we would never have seen some of our young first teamers if it wasn't for the ban.

we n e ed to keep focused on bringing in youngsters into the team.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

This is already true. Many fans didn't want to back Conte when we finished 5th and after we won the FA cup.

No wonder Sarri left as soon as someone else called...

I think with Conte being in a war with our board and Sarri with his predictable possession based football I could understand the fans turning on them however I did not expect this sort of response for Lampard and so quickly into the 2nd season. 

4 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

I think with Conte being in a war with our board and Sarri with his predictable possession based football I could understand the fans turning on them however I did not expect this sort of response for Lampard and so quickly into the 2nd season. 

Well it does show some human nature there, Conte winning the title in his first season changed the perception of our squad and expectations for the next season, had he won the FA cup in his first season but the title in his second, even with him complaining most of the time he probably wouldn't have left.

Sarri got the job done, but he was simply not liked, end of story there.

So it shows how somehow, sometimes the results don't really matter, as long as we weren't winning the league with Conte fans complained how our football with 30% possession wasn't pleasant to watch and while Sarri managed to get us to top 3, our team was boring to watch.

Would the club sack Lampard if he were to finish outside of the top 4, while winning the FA Cup, which would be similar to Conte's last season with us?
Some fans would turn against him, just like they turned against Conte, even if Lampard doesn't argue with the board through the media.

1 hour ago, coco said:

@Slojo

The Arsenal match was terrible, i'm not for one minute trying to cover up our Franks shortcomings of late. He has no excuses for getting it wrong, but we have no excuses if we stupidly expect him to achieve something at this club without falling down at some point along the way.

 

The reigning covid champions lost to Villa 7:2, for me that should be much more unacceptable than our loss against Arsenal + Everton. When has it ever happened before that the defending champions lose like that?

We have been in a bad form, but we can still come back stronger and win in big games, we'll see how things will look after the next 3-5 games, incoming City, Wolves, Leicester, more than enough tests that will show if we can do it or not.

10 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

The reigning covid champions lost to Villa 7:2, for me that should be much more unacceptable than our loss against Arsenal + Everton. When has it ever happened before that the defending champions lose like that?

We have been in a bad form, but we can still come back stronger and win in big games, we'll see how things will look after the next 3-5 games, incoming City, Wolves, Leicester, more than enough tests that will show if we can do it or not.

The 7:2 was an embarrassing scoreline, but we've seen this season that Villa are highly underrated and extremely dangerous on the counter attack with the quality they have up top. I would say the team we lost to, was much worse than that Villa team that beat Liverpool. They got caught off guard and were embarrassed, our players shouldn't be getting caught off guard in a heated London rivalry to avenge a cup defeat. 

Scorelines aside, I'm more embarrassed with that defeat than I would be if we lost 7:2 to Villa, I truly mean that. 

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

The reigning covid champions lost to Villa 7:2, for me that should be much more unacceptable than our loss against Arsenal + Everton. When has it ever happened before that the defending champions lose like that?

We have been in a bad form, but we can still come back stronger and win in big games, we'll see how things will look after the next 3-5 games, incoming City, Wolves, Leicester, more than enough tests that will show if we can do it or not.

Nothing like a 'crisis' to get a reaction.

 

1 minute ago, Slojo said:

The 7:2 was an embarrassing scoreline, but we've seen this season that Villa are highly underrated and extremely dangerous on the counter attack with the quality they have up top. I would say the team we lost to, was much worse than that Villa team that beat Liverpool. They got caught off guard and were embarrassed, our players shouldn't be getting caught off guard in a heated London rivalry to avenge a cup defeat. 

Scorelines aside, I'm more embarrassed with that defeat than I would be if we lost 7:2 to Villa, I truly mean that. 

Yeah but arse did score a dodgy pen and another goal from an obvious cross, so i think he's right it wasnt as bad as villa v pool.

On 29/12/2020 at 15:15, General said:

No loyalty in football anymore ! midway point in a season the likes nobody has seen before, look at the news people are dropping like flies, club today is 6th, 6 points off the top. But let’s all throw our toys out of our prams cus Chelsea aren’t top because after spending all that money they should be, and it’s all the managers fault.

Winkers 😉

 

I don't think its the fact that were are sitting in 6th place with 4 other teams, it's the type of football we are playing that's the concern...it's f**king horrible at the moment.

30 minutes ago, coco said:

Yeah but arse did score a dodgy pen and another goal from an obvious cross, so i think he's right it wasnt as bad as villa v pool.

It sounds a poor excuse but it happens often for us. When we are going well lady luck shines on us. We get that penalty, the ball deflects in rather than wide, we spot the final ball for a simple goal rather than attempt something more difficult.

Casing point, all of these losses and draw of late, point to one without a single element of bad luck or bad referee calls.

Everton, James hits the post and it deflects out rather than in. Would be 1 extra point.

Wolves corner that leads to their goal was an obvious goal kick and poor call by the officials. If called right we are not caught short for their winner. Would be 3 extra points.

Arsenal, that's a pen but the one by Maguire on Dave was not? Bullsh*t call. 3rd goal is a fluke that 99 other times sales over the bar. Then we mess up another pen. Take those three thing out and we get 1-2 and 3 more points.

Villa. If your luck is in the ref gives either a foul to us or villa for the Christensen vs Grealish clash or, if not, when we clear the first ball he blows up for the medical team to come on. 2 more points.

With just simply the correct official calls and some luck we are now above Liverpool. 

Yes Arsenal was a horrible display, but for bad luck and bad refereeing (as it always is against them of late) we would have won.

Edited January 2, 20215 yr by axman2526

I hate it when people start with 'we don't have the divine right to win' stuff. This tired line is an ever popular cliche straight from the 'Things Losers Say' bin. Can you imagine a truly successful manager say that to their team? I'm sure Frank never said that to his players either, because the moment those words are uttered, you basically admit you're a loser. Whether it's Mourinho's siege mentality approach or whatever Pep, Klopp or any other top manager uses to motivate their teams to overcome opponents and win trophies, I guarantee you accepting losing is not part of it. Every team loses at some point, it's how they react to a loss is what separates them. 

I'm also sick and tired of people looking for excuses. Loss to Everton, well, Carlo's more experienced, Toffees are in good form, we're always struggling at Goodison, etc. Loss to Wolves, well, we were tired, they're very good side, we don't have a divine right to etc., loss to Arse, bad day at the office, they were up for it, they were desperate for a win, draw vs Villa, well they're in a good form, there was a foul in the buildup to their goal, bla bla bla bla. And we were missing our wide players for a few matches, of course, because no other team ever has injuries, just us. f**k that. At some point you just have to admit that Frank is struggling to find answers and our poor performances match our crappy results. Does anyone even know what our system is? We don't seem to use pressing and we struggle to break down low block teams, in fact most games we have trouble even registering shots on goal, which is a pretty bad sign.

I want Frank to succeed and yes, it's a difficult job, but he wanted it. Lamps did well in his first season, but let's also not forget that the club also took a risk by bringing in a young inexperienced manager. He wasn't exactly picking between European elite clubs after that one season with Derby and decided to do us a favour. Quite possibly, if it wasn't for Chelsea offer, he could have even been out of work by now. In fact, if he doesn't last this season and that means we're in a free fall, I'd say he would have trouble finding another PL club giving him an opportunity. 

We all want Frank to succeed at Chelsea, his biggest fans and detractors alike. But let's get one thing straight, he should be judged on merit and not showered with excuses every time he fails because he's a club legend, nice guy or whatever else. My view is, if he can't deliver top four finish with this squad, he probably is not the man for the job, it's that simple. Some of you have this obsession with keeping him around for the next year-and-a-half no matter what, which I find odd. This is a high pressure job and Frank knew that coming in. Whatever assurances he was given, I'm fairly sure he knows better than anyone, there's a limit to how long he's allowed to fail at Chelsea FC. Let's hope he can resolve this recent crisis asap and prove all the doubters wrong because the longer we struggle the worse it's going to get for everyone

 

Edited January 2, 20215 yr by abramovich

2 hours ago, coco said:

 

Or you take a punt on a player who has been at the very top, knows the club inside out, and at the very least would be popular amongst the fans.

The very fact that Lampard was given the job suggests the club might have had enough of the revolving managers door and replaced it with a portcullis.

What i think may need to be taken in to account is the unique nature of life now. Whilst this has been mentioned as a reason for FL to be given more time, which naturally makes perfect sense, we may well find the board have to make hard economically based decisions. Failure to qualify for next year's champions league may well be a risk that cannot be taken in the economically perilous position so many business are in. Regardless of the money spent to date but if we get to a position of 2 seasons of no fans, reduced merchandising and sundry other income streams, this board may well have no option but try another option. Of course there are no guarantees that would work anyway.

7 minutes ago, abramovich said:

I hate it when people start with 'we don't have the divine right to win' stuff. This tired line is an ever popular cliche straight from the 'Things Losers Say' bin. Can you imagine a truly successful manager say that to their team? I'm sure Frank never said that to his players either, because the moment those words are uttered, you basically admit you're a loser. Whether it's Mourinho's siege mentality approach or whatever Pep, Klopp or any other top manager uses to motivate their teams to overcome opponents and win trophies, I guarantee you accepting losing is not part of it. Every team loses at some point, it's how they react to a loss is what separates them. 

I'm also sick and tired of people looking for excuses. Loss to Everton, well, Carlo's more experienced, Toffees are in good form, we're always struggling at Goodison, etc. Loss to Wolves, well, we were tired, they're very good side, we don't have a divine right to etc., loss to Arse, bad day at the office, they were up for it, they were desperate for a win, draw vs Villa, well they're in a good form, there was a foul in the buildup to their goal, bla bla bla bla. And we were missing our wide players for a few matches, of course, because no other team ever has injuries, just us. f**k that. At some point you just have to admit that Frank is struggling to find answers and our poor performances match our crappy results. Does anyone even know what our system is? We don't seem to use pressing and we struggle to break down low block teams, in fact most games we have trouble even registering shots on goal, which is a pretty bad sign.

I want Frank to succeed and yes, it's a difficult job, but he wanted it. Lamps did well in his first season, but let's also not forget that the club also took a risk by bringing in a young inexperienced manager. He wasn't exactly picking between European elite clubs after that one season with Derby and did us a favour. Quite possibly, if it wasn't for Chelsea offer, he could have even been out of work by now. In fact, if he doesn't last this season and that means we're in a free fall, I'd say he would have trouble finding another PL club giving him an opportunity. 

We all want Frank to succeed at Chelsea, his biggest fans and detractors alike. But let's get one thing straight, he should be judged on merit and not showered with excuses every time he fails because he's a club legend, nice guy or whatever else. My view is, if he can't deliver top four finish with this squad, he probably is not the man for the job, it's that simple. Some of you have this obsession with keeping him around for the next year-and-a-half no matter what, which I find odd. This is a high pressure job and Frank knew that coming in. Whatever assurances he was given, I'm fairly sure he knows better than anyone, there's a limit to how long he's allowed to fail at Chelsea FC. Let's hope he can resolve this recent crisis asap and prove all the doubters wrong because the longer we struggle the worse it's going to get for everyone

 

Let me try and explain that bit to you. Speaking only for myself, the most important thing for me as a Chelsea fan is to enjoy the football and be proud of the team. Can I do those things we we lose to the Arsenal kids? No at the time I was angry about it and unhappy with Frank for it.

However having calmed down I go back to the fact for me that my happiness with Chelsea is not solely determined by success. 

Having a true Chelsea man at the helm means a lot to me. Having youngster come though like Mount and James means a lot. That cuts a whole lot of patience from me that previous buy to win managers would not get.

I get that for other fans the most important factor is trophies though.

21 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Let me try and explain that bit to you. Speaking only for myself, the most important thing for me as a Chelsea fan is to enjoy the football and be proud of the team. Can I do those things we we lose to the Arsenal kids? No at the time I was angry about it and unhappy with Frank for it.

However having calmed down I go back to the fact for me that my happiness with Chelsea is not solely determined by success. 

Having a true Chelsea man at the helm means a lot to me. Having youngster come though like Mount and James means a lot. That cuts a whole lot of patience from me that previous buy to win managers would not get.

I get that for other fans the most important factor is trophies though.

For me its not about winning trophies nor is it exclusively about bringing kids through. I do like to see this where this is on merit and not through any other narrative. However my overriding wish is the same as it has ever been, for Chelsea to play an attractive dynamic style of football that is entertaining to watch. Sadly it has been quite rare to see this on a consistent basis over quite a few years to be honest,  regardless of managers and players.

1 hour ago, CFCCAN said:

I don't think its the fact that were are sitting in 6th place with 4 other teams, it's the type of football we are playing that's the concern...it's f**king horrible at the moment.

That’s kind of my concern too and less so our position. We’ve become so predictable to play against. All we do is pass, pass, pass, try and get the ball to our full backs and hope that someone taps in one of their crosses. There is zero penetration from the middle.

Edited January 2, 20215 yr by Frankie8Lampard

Hang on, until the Everton game we were more than decent weren't we ?

Yeah, it's a very bad patch, but this is a good team capable of stunning football at times.

Let's hope we get back to winning ways, keep the faith ,

come on you Blues !

2 hours ago, abramovich said:

I hate it when people start with 'we don't have the divine right to win' stuff. This tired line is an ever popular cliche straight from the 'Things Losers Say' bin. Can you imagine a truly successful manager say that to their team? I'm sure Frank never said that to his players either, because the moment those words are uttered, you basically admit you're a loser. Whether it's Mourinho's siege mentality approach or whatever Pep, Klopp or any other top manager uses to motivate their teams to overcome opponents and win trophies, I guarantee you accepting losing is not part of it. Every team loses at some point, it's how they react to a loss is what separates them. 

I'm also sick and tired of people looking for excuses. Loss to Everton, well, Carlo's more experienced, Toffees are in good form, we're always struggling at Goodison, etc. Loss to Wolves, well, we were tired, they're very good side, we don't have a divine right to etc., loss to Arse, bad day at the office, they were up for it, they were desperate for a win, draw vs Villa, well they're in a good form, there was a foul in the buildup to their goal, bla bla bla bla. And we were missing our wide players for a few matches, of course, because no other team ever has injuries, just us. f**k that. At some point you just have to admit that Frank is struggling to find answers and our poor performances match our crappy results. Does anyone even know what our system is? We don't seem to use pressing and we struggle to break down low block teams, in fact most games we have trouble even registering shots on goal, which is a pretty bad sign.

I want Frank to succeed and yes, it's a difficult job, but he wanted it. Lamps did well in his first season, but let's also not forget that the club also took a risk by bringing in a young inexperienced manager. He wasn't exactly picking between European elite clubs after that one season with Derby and decided to do us a favour. Quite possibly, if it wasn't for Chelsea offer, he could have even been out of work by now. In fact, if he doesn't last this season and that means we're in a free fall, I'd say he would have trouble finding another PL club giving him an opportunity. 

We all want Frank to succeed at Chelsea, his biggest fans and detractors alike. But let's get one thing straight, he should be judged on merit and not showered with excuses every time he fails because he's a club legend, nice guy or whatever else. My view is, if he can't deliver top four finish with this squad, he probably is not the man for the job, it's that simple. Some of you have this obsession with keeping him around for the next year-and-a-half no matter what, which I find odd. This is a high pressure job and Frank knew that coming in. Whatever assurances he was given, I'm fairly sure he knows better than anyone, there's a limit to how long he's allowed to fail at Chelsea FC. Let's hope he can resolve this recent crisis asap and prove all the doubters wrong because the longer we struggle the worse it's going to get for everyone

 

Couldn’t have put it any better really bang on the endless list of excuses is staggering just because it’s Lampard. 
People keep mentioning the run we were on before but that run mask a lot of the exact issues we are seeing now.

And we had these issues last season before lockdown also so it’s not a one off.

Typical we really kickstarted the bloody gooners season off.

2 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Let me try and explain that bit to you. Speaking only for myself, the most important thing for me as a Chelsea fan is to enjoy the football and be proud of the team. Can I do those things we we lose to the Arsenal kids? No at the time I was angry about it and unhappy with Frank for it.

However having calmed down I go back to the fact for me that my happiness with Chelsea is not solely determined by success. 

Having a true Chelsea man at the helm means a lot to me. Having youngster come though like Mount and James means a lot. That cuts a whole lot of patience from me that previous buy to win managers would not get.

I get that for other fans the most important factor is trophies though.

I feel the same as you. I feel we are experiencing something pretty special, Super Frank manager, bringing through youth players who are Chelsea through and through. It doesn’t get much better than that for me personally. 
 

Obviously I want us challenging for titles but like you, I’m much happier to give Lampard a lot more time than I would with other managers such as Sarri or Conte. I’m abit surprised some fans decide to look at it result wise only.

I suppose everybody is different.

33 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

I feel the same as you. I feel we are experiencing something pretty special, Super Frank manager, bringing through youth players who are Chelsea through and through. It doesn’t get much better than that for me personally. 
 

Obviously I want us challenging for titles but like you, I’m much happier to give Lampard a lot more time than I would with other managers such as Sarri or Conte. I’m abit surprised some fans decide to look at it result wise only.

I suppose everybody is different.

Great post by @axman2526 and I'm with you both on this as I'm sure many Chelsea supporters are.

Not saying Lamps should get a free ride regardless or that his beyond criticism. I've been critical of him and will continue to be if I think he gets it wrong. But giving Lamps a bit of criticism doesn't mean I want him sacked. All teams lose games, but that Arsenal defeat did really hurt and none of us want to see too many abject performances like that one and I don't think Lamps will let that happen 'cos he would have been hurting more than any of us.

As you point out @dansubrosa, everyone is different but without wanting to be disrespectful to anyone, I think the majority of people that aren't willing to give Lamps time are fans who have only been around since the Abramovich era. Perhaps that's understandable because they will have been used to success followed by more success and not for them is watching the team struggle to make top 4.

 

Sounds like a good win and performance against City will hurt a few on here more than the Arsenal defeat.

7 hours ago, Gol15 said:

You just assume that we will keep playing bad. You don't really know if that will be the case, chances are any team will have a bad period, some ups and downs, we have a good squad and it's easier for us to turn things around than to keep playing bad.

Of course I don't. All you can do is assume and I'm assuming based off a variety of factors, performances more so than the actual results over the last 5 weeks. We are on the brink of a crisis whilst having almost a fully fit squad. Imagine we get a few more injuries....lose to city who have 5 players missing anf we are only 3 clear of Arsenal.

Edited January 2, 20215 yr by KonaKai Blue

I dont think people are against Lampard and want him gone. It's more about exploring the posibility that Lampard maybe isn't "the one". People need to accept that he might fail and that he may get sacked.

Hopefully that won't happen, but I feel that next sesason will be make or break for him. He will need a big result by the end of 2021/22 season and by big results I mean actually challenging for the league and maybe even winning some cup.

I just dont see him here in 5 years time with no trophies and Abramovic still investing in his signings. 

Edited January 2, 20215 yr by mm24

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

The reigning covid champions lost to Villa 7:2, for me that should be much more unacceptable than our loss against Arsenal + Everton. When has it ever happened before that the defending champions lose like that?

We have been in a bad form, but we can still come back stronger and win in big games, we'll see how things will look after the next 3-5 games, incoming City, Wolves, Leicester, more than enough tests that will show if we can do it or not.

That loss to Villa was embarrassing in itself but no Liverpool fan was overly concerned. It was a freak result, one off blip that was not a reflection on their general style of football. The Liverpool fans I know even alot of reactions where congratulating Villa. Completely different to going on a run of 5 games with 1 win, lack of direction and not looking like scoring a threat to the oppositions goal.