5 hours ago, forbzy said:

Isn't that what we were anticipating from Kai? I still think he will be the creator of this team but I doubt we will see the best of him this season. Beyond that I think we desperately miss Ziyech's creativity. He seems more than a winger to me. So much of our best football went through him before he got injured.

To be honest, I didn't watch Havertz before he came. There was a lot of hype surrounding him, and he is supposed to be one of the next big talents. From what I know though, it doesn't sound as if he's a Fabregas type of player. He is a goal scorer, but less of a player with Fabregas vision.

1 hour ago, Diamondgeezer said:

I think if you look at this like you own the club then it’s a whole different picture. We are worse off at this point compared to last season and invested £200m in the playing staff. We can’t beat teams in the so called top 6 around us and that shows that not much progress is being made. I’m not in the sack Frank brigade I think it’s time to realise that his coaching team were good for bringing the youth through last season but trying to manage 22 Big name players through a season is a whole different game they just aren’t good enough. We should invest in a big name number 2 that Frank agrees with and take some of the pressure off.  If we don’t I can only see one outcome because we aren’t progressing as well as we should. Plus anyone who thinks they are happy with mid table are kidding themselves because I know one person who won’t be.......Roman A!!

The problem is, last season Lampard's hands were tied. We didn't have a transfer window, so we couldn't sign anybody. Fortunately the young players came through for us and we managed to get top four. This season Lampard has been able to get in players he wants, but with that comes the lack of team cohesion due to a weird 2020. Barely any pre-season for the players to gel. Unlike Tottenham, Utd etc, they pretty much had the same teams from last season, give or take a player or two. Lampard has essentially signed half a first team of players and has had to get them performing as soon as possible. It hasn't been simple. We have had key players missing at points since the start of the season. We had players joining up with the team later, such as Havertz, Mendy, Silva etc. 

Today's aggravating stat, we are as close to an awful Arsenal side as we are to the top. Likely to be further away when Liverpool play their game in hand.

5 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Today's aggravating stat, we are as close to an awful Arsenal side as we are to the top. Likely to be further away when Liverpool play their game in hand.

I wouldn’t worry about Arsenal. In a few weeks time they will have City, Leicester, Wolves, Leeds, Villa and United in row, with Benfica in middle somewhere. They’ll plummet to relegation spot.

No loyalty in football anymore ! midway point in a season the likes nobody has seen before, look at the news people are dropping like flies, club today is 6th, 6 points off the top. But let’s all throw our toys out of our prams cus Chelsea aren’t top because after spending all that money they should be, and it’s all the managers fault.

Winkers 😉

 

7 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

I wouldn’t worry about Arsenal. In a few weeks time they will have City, Leicester, Wolves, Leeds, Villa and United in row, with Benfica in middle somewhere. They’ll plummet to relegation spot.

Yeah not worried about them. That performance was still humiliating though.

Unfortunately chelsea have made this bed. All it takes is a few ropey results and performances, disappointing I know, and the new factions of fanbase that have joined in Abramovich era, which demands a manager be sacked at every opportunity, Chuck their toys out of the pram. 
In saying that, seeing that chelsea have less points after 16 games than they did last year makes me worry for Lampard a little. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out Roman won’t be chuffed with that after spending over £200m.

Lamps tends to stick to something for a while before changing, I keep waiting for what is the last straw in his mind and hopefully it comes soon. If the City game is off then we have some 2 weeks till the next league game, enough time to tinker a bit and hopefully he does.

57 minutes ago, The Brit said:

Unfortunately chelsea have made this bed. All it takes is a few ropey results and performances, disappointing I know, and the new factions of fanbase that have joined in Abramovich era, which demands a manager be sacked at every opportunity, Chuck their toys out of the pram. 

This isn't just isolated to Chelsea, it's what's what big clubs do, the anomaly that is Ferguson has given this false perspective that manager's should get years to build unconditionally. To put it into context if we/Roman didn't "chuck the toys out of the pram" when AVB was making a mess of the job we wouldn't have had the best night of our history (for many Chelsea fans possibly life).

Lampard has done enough in his first season and a bit to merit the chance to turn this round but he needs to significantly improve on performances of late because since the Leeds game they've been unacceptable for the standards of 90's Chelsea let alone this era.

I enjoyed most of last season even when the wins weren't always there because I saw a clear blueprint and encouragement that once the youth grew further and we get better quality to replace the deadwood things were going to be seriously good. At this minute things look horrible, the football we are playing is diabolical, we create sod all and If it weren't for the fact that (ironically) we are defending somewhat well we'd be in a rut as bad as the one Arsenal were on a month ago.

Edited December 30, 20205 yr by Argo

13 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Interesting how now stats totally matter for Timo and Kai even when both spent most games filling in the gaps in the 4-3-3 formation, Lampard didn't build the team around them this season at all, he could have done that but he chose to settle in Mount back in his position and to find the new position for Kante.

Timo started the season well but got burned out running down the wing and lost confidence. He's a striker that is known for missing chances but just by being the striker he's capable of getting into more than enough chances to make up for his misses. That's not possible when he's asked to provide for others, he spent so much energy just to get into a chance only to miss it and then he goes cold and spends another 30 minutes just hugging the touchline and then whoops he misses again...
He was played in the wrong way most of the time and the few goals he did score in the PL, half of them he created by himself, Jorginho's long ball wasn't an assist for Jorginho officially, it was Timo that had so many touches there and basically created the goal himself. Then he got a pass on the wing, ran the counter attack by himself, passed 4-5 players and scored in another game, that's him trying to force it and most of the time it won't work but it looked great that one time, that's not us playing tactically well, that's equivalent to buying Messi/Maradona and him running past 4 players for a goal but that doesn't make your tactics good.

Kai was mostly filling in for whoever wasn't there to play in a certain position, the few games where he played as the AM he delivered almost every game.
For some reason Lampard decided to play him as a false 9 against Liverpool, Christensen got a red card and Kai was subbed off. That's not him playing bad, that's just random, you have Tammy, Giroud, Werner but you simply have to play Kai as a false 9 against Liverpool so early on in the season when he didn't even have a pre-season and then you take him off because your Christensen lost the game for you already.
But after that game Lampard played him correctly, he was the AM in 3 games in a row, he scored, assisted and won a penalty during that time so he had a run of 3 games where he did well and then it ended when Lampard changed the formation for the Spurs game and Kai played once again only 45 minutes in a different role, after that point Lampard used him as the CM, RW, basically wherever he needed to fill in so that's not really how you make a new player settle in.

Is it really that mind-blowing how the new signings that play well are players that are never asked do do something other than what they are the best at? Ziyech was never moved outside of the right wing, Chilwell and T.Silva obviously only play their natural positions.
But then people are surprised that Timo and Kai have weak stats, I mean even Ziyech had a bad game at least once and he only played in his strongest position, why do we expect new players to perform well when we don't use them correctly?

It's the manager's job to use his players in the best way where their best abilities will come into play, it's the manager's job to provide for the best possible ways so that they perform. Last season Lampard blamed the players for not being clinical enough and it's true we missed a lot of chances but he's not doing any favors to anyone by demanding that Werner simply figures it out on the wing and changes his player-profile in a matter of a few months, that's taking a big risk and a big leap of faith and of course it hasn't paid out!

Same for Kai, a huge signing that spent 30% of the time on the wing playing way too wide. Like I said, if you want a new young player to settle in fast and to contribute you should play him in his best position where you would have the most chances that he delivers as soon as possible.

Solskjaer doesn't play Fernandes or van De Beek on the wing, he's not trying to re-invent those players he just puts them where they play their best game and hopes for the best. And it's working...

All of this. I’ll always back Lampard but it’s the bizarre decisions that piss me off. We’re not football experts but a lot of us watch a lot of football and can see the obvious. And the amount of games where we’ve been struggling for 20 minutes only for a change to be made after we concede. It’s like FL wants to ride it out and be there after the game saying I told you so yet teams in the PL won’t just let you do that.

                 Mendy

James Zouma Silva Chilwell

                 Kante

     Mount      
                          Havertz

Ziyech/CHO  Werner  Pulisic

We all know deep down this is our best team. And if Havertz is still playing like sh*t then Kovacic can replace Mount and move Mount upfield.

Frank constantly talks about the team being fluid in attack yet he seems to forget the team needs to get good at the basics before this incredibly slick Liverpool’esque attacking force appears. Stop feeding the players this idea they can float around the pitch and just pluck attacking rhythm out of nowhere. Play the players in their best position and tell them exactly what you want them to do and give them the attacking patterns to play round defences.

Havertz was bought as a player specialising in arriving in the box and finishing attacks yet he is clearly being told to swap around with other players and is in positions he’s not comfortable in.
 

Werner was bought as one of the most exciting attackers on the planet and is primed to play as a Vardy’esque player on the shoulder of the last defender yet he’s out on the bloody wing trying to dribble past full backs. And if a team plays deep, for god same think up some combinations where by Werner can tap the ball into the net or cut it back to him like against Tottenham. 

9 minutes ago, rtwelch said:

All of this. I’ll always back Lampard but it’s the bizarre decisions that piss me off. We’re not football experts but a lot of us watch a lot of football and can see the obvious. And the amount of games where we’ve been struggling for 20 minutes only for a change to be made after we concede. It’s like FL wants to ride it out and be there after the game saying I told you so yet teams in the PL won’t just let you do that.

                 Mendy

James Zouma Silva Chilwell

                 Kante

     Mount      
                          Havertz

Ziyech/CHO  Werner  Pulisic

We all know deep down this is our best team. And if Havertz is still playing like sh*t then Kovacic can replace Mount and move Mount upfield.

I do agree with you to a certain extent and in the last few games I would say he delayed making a change against West Ham when we were under the cosh for majority of the 2nd half and he made the change at about the 70 minute mark. I can understand he may have delayed it due to using a sub in the first half due to injury and may have played it cautiously for any further injuries. 

Against Arsenal he made changes at HT and against Villa I thought he made the right changes at the right time, I think people people are being very harsh on Frank, he has a new squad who are still gelling and in a abnormally congested season where the coaching staff are not getting much time with the team we are suffering. 

In regards to the starting 11 I think next season that might be our strongest 11 but this season with Werner and Kai still acclimatising to the league we will most likely have to go with Tammy/Giroud as the CF. Our creativity and strengths come from our wide players in James, Chilwell, Ziyech and Pulisic therefore we need a target man in the box. We lack creativity through the middle therefore having Werner making runs in behind and playing on the shoulder of the CB's is not the best option, if only we had Prime Fabregas in midfield. 

This is not good. He's tied with AVB for the worst Chelsea manager for PPG record. 

8 hours ago, Argo said:

they've been unacceptable for the standards of 90's Chelsea let alone this era.

80's yes. 90's two cup finals, one won, one lost, cup winners cup winners, super cup winners, league cup winners, third in 99. 

4 hours ago, Slojo said:

This is not good. He's tied with AVB for the worst Chelsea manager for PPG record. 

That Avram Grant is quite a manager, isn't he? Bet we could use him right now. I read Drogba's book, he said Grant didn't do much ( a compliment on him being smart), but hired experienced assistant manager and coaches to run the day to do. We look at Lampard, his coaching team is just as inexperienced as he is, definitely missing something. We talk about player's  strength, Werner similar to Rashford, would strieve on early through balls into space. United is and has figured that out and play to their stength, and they are winning games. We are still playing the ball around at walking pace, and I'm not even going to talk about Werner playing on the wing.

4 hours ago, Slojo said:

This is not good. He's tied with AVB for the worst Chelsea manager for PPG record. 

Certainly not a good look but this season is a f*cking weird one. Man United with 3 losses are 2nd, Leicester in 3rd place have lost a third of their matches. That says all you need to know about the league this year imo.

11 hours ago, Argo said:

This isn't just isolated to Chelsea, it's what's what big clubs do, the anomaly that is Ferguson has given this false perspective that manager's should get years to build unconditionally. To put it into context if we/Roman didn't "chuck the toys out of the pram" when AVB was making a mess of the job we wouldn't have had the best night of our history (for many Chelsea fans possibly life).

Lampard has done enough in his first season and a bit to merit the chance to turn this round but he needs to significantly improve on performances of late because since the Leeds game they've been unacceptable for the standards of 90's Chelsea let alone this era.

I enjoyed most of last season even when the wins weren't always there because I saw a clear blueprint and encouragement that once the youth grew further and we get better quality to replace the deadwood things were going to be seriously good. At this minute things look horrible, the football we are playing is diabolical, we create sod all and If it weren't for the fact that (ironically) we are defending somewhat well we'd be in a rut as bad as the one Arsenal were on a month ago.

Good job Liverpool stuck by Klopp then 

6 hours ago, Slojo said:

This is not good. He's tied with AVB for the worst Chelsea manager for PPG record. 

It doesn’t look great. But the table Doesn’t take into account the difference in qualities of squad, not buying any players last season, unprecedented impact of covid. 

8 minutes ago, The Brit said:

Good job Liverpool stuck by Klopp then 

The same Klopp who was already a proven winner at Dortmund? Won 2 German Cups, Bundesliga's and got to a CL final? All while losing his best players to Bayern and breaking the Bayern hegemony in the Bundesliga? 

I wish we would stop with these silly Klopp and Pep comparisons. 

1 hour ago, icecoolguy22 said:

That Avram Grant is quite a manager, isn't he? Bet we could use him right now. I read Drogba's book, he said Grant didn't do much ( a compliment on him being smart), but hired experienced assistant manager and coaches to run the day to do. We look at Lampard, his coaching team is just as inexperienced as he is, definitely missing something. We talk about player's  strength, Werner similar to Rashford, would strieve on early through balls into space. United is and has figured that out and play to their stength, and they are winning games. We are still playing the ball around at walking pace, and I'm not even going to talk about Werner playing on the wing.

Difference is Avram only managed a small sample of games. Besides that, the stats there tell a good story about our previous managers. Not the whole story, but that offers some perspective at least doesn't it. 54 games and only half of them are won, that's not good is it? 

29 minutes ago, The Brit said:

Good job Liverpool stuck by Klopp then 

Yeah and why did they get Klopp? Because they were sharp in sacking their previous three manager's when things broke down, one just over a year after after a strong title challenge and another despite status as a club legend.

I don't think Lampard is currently at that point but if the sad moment comes it will be in no one's best interests to cling on, least of all his.

28 minutes ago, Slojo said:

The same Klopp who was already a proven winner at Dortmund? Won 2 German Cups, Bundesliga's and got to a CL final? All while losing his best players to Bayern and breaking the Bayern hegemony in the Bundesliga? 

I wish we would stop with these silly Klopp and Pep comparisons. 

But it shouldn’t be dismissed as a silly comparison just because of what Klopp has achieved before. I get that unlike lampard, Klopp had proved himself at dortmund. But Liverpool still had to be very patient for him to turn things around. He was still under a lot of pressure like Lampard is now but Liverpool stood by him. I don’t know if Lampard will come good but three weeks ago chelsea were on a run of 17 games unbeaten and looking good. It’s been a terrible run since then but is it bad enough to sack him now? Seems rather harsh to me and a bit knee jerk.

10 minutes ago, Argo said:

Yeah and why did they get Klopp? Because they were sharp in sacking their previous three manager's when things broke down, one just over a year after after a strong title challenge and another despite status as a club legend.

I don't think Lampard is currently at that point but if the sad moment comes it will be in no one's best interests to cling on, least of all his.

I'm devastated myself; we all are. But I think we must face reality here and accept that Frank might not be the man for this job. I'm weighing all the pros and cons in my head constantly, but subconsciously I've had a terrible feeling in my gut all month watching this team. Since Leeds it's been piss poor, and we can't persist with one good result, then another draw or loss. 

I think we should give Gilmour some games in the midfield. It might backfire given how young he is, but I think we could do with someone who will try to take risks and get the ball forward, because right now that midfield is running out of ideas, the core problems lie there for me. Although, it doesn't help when your key players can't finish their dinner. 

Edited December 30, 20205 yr by Slojo

2 minutes ago, The Brit said:

But it shouldn’t be dismissed as a silly comparison just because of what Klopp has achieved before. I get that unlike lampard, Klopp had proved himself at dortmund. But Liverpool still had to be very patient for him to turn things around. He was still under a lot of pressure like Lampard is now but Liverpool stood by him. I don’t know if Lampard will come good but three weeks ago chelsea were on a run of 17 games unbeaten and looking good. It’s been a terrible run since then but is it bad enough to sack him now? Seems rather harsh to me and a bit knee jerk.

I say it's silly because I keep hearing the same analogy over and over again. And I do understand it, I just think it's silly when you put both managers together on paper. Liverpool were improving under Klopp, after he had to pick up the scraps from Rodgers in 2015, they finished 8th sure. After that he got them in top 4 twice, then he immediately challenged for the title. But given Klopps previous success at Dortmund, it seemed obvious for them that Liverpool would eventually improve under him with the right resources and they did. 

Where's the evidence for this under Frank? I'm not saying it's all bad. He did a great job last season, a fantastic job even. But we need to be doing better right now, our form in the last 6 weeks has been unacceptable. If this continues to carry on for the next two months, I don't think he's the right man for the job and the club should pull the plug and get a better alternative. 

It's very hard to judge Lampard on points per game as the other mangers have not had a transfer ban.

Having said that our player purchases have been a mixed bunch since.