2 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Giroud has had some good games

Giroud would last about 40 minutes if he had to press as much as Lampard wants from his strikers. He just doesn't have the legs to do that and when Lampard modus operandi is pressing from the front we understand why he hasn't been playing more.

12 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Giroud would last about 40 minutes if he had to press as much as Lampard wants from his strikers. He just doesn't have the legs to do that and when Lampard modus operandi is pressing from the front we understand why he hasn't been playing more.

The press really isn't working though so I don't see the point in playing that way currently, we've been on a poor run of form so we need to change it up. 

Playing a 3-5-2 with Alonso and James bombing down the wings would do wonders for our attacking prowess. We look so toothless currently so getting more support in forward areas will make a huge difference. United last night literally had all their players back when they went ahead as they know how much we struggle to break teams down, it then makes players like Maguire look decent when in reality we should be all over him.

Giroud for me is the best option after Tammy as he can bring others into the game; with the lack of confidence the ball isn't sticking very well in attacking areas. Giroud would bring that back for me and needs more involvement, hopefully Frank will see that now.

28 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Giroud has had some good games, Batshuayi never has. This is coming from someone who vocally supported Michy for much of this season.

When was the last time Giroud had a good game?

5 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

When was the last time Giroud had a good game?

last night he actually did ok 

Whilst Giroud definitely isn't the long term answer, the mystery is why Bats has been preferred for the cameo role in previous games? Giroud at least does the basics right, his hold up play alone is far superior and as proved last night he can finish, especially at the near post. It is correctly pointed out by many he can't press. Does Bats honestly bring more in that role consistently? Lamps has to look at his squad available and if pressing from the front isn't an option, change tactics to suit the personnel.

1 minute ago, charierre said:

last night he actually did ok 

Whilst Giroud definitely isn't the long term answer, the mystery is why Bats has been preferred for the cameo role in previous games? Giroud at least does the basics right, his hold up play alone is far superior and as proved last night he can finish, especially at the near post. It is correctly pointed out by many he can't press. Does Bats honestly bring more in that role consistently? Lamps has to look at his squad available and if pressing from the front isn't an option, change tactics to suit the personnel.

This is it for me, fine if Lampard was hoping Bats with some game time would improve yet it has not.

In the interests of the season you then use your other players namely Giroud even if he does not fit your preferred playing style, results are more important in the short term.

Though its hard to defend Lampard here, you can't even blame him entirely when the squad is just so mediocre.

Willian, Pedro and Batshuayi are 3 awful awful players and I don't know why we still have them. Also the people clamoring about lampard needing to start Giroud as if hes some superstar, have they not seen him play before? Hes an okay player to bring off the bench, but there's no way he can start a game, though its still a better option than Bats.

Then you got the injury problems.. For once I thought we started our best midfield trio with Kante, Jorg and Kova and what do we get? Kante injured in 10 minutes and back comes Mount in again.

Defence is shocking aside from Reece, and Caballero is clearly struggling like any other keeper would having the defence that we have. Kepa being dropped because of terrible defending is a bit harsh.

The team/squad needs a massive overhaul in the summer, so many crap players in the starting squad that need to be removed and replaced

49 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Giroud would last about 40 minutes if he had to press as much as Lampard wants from his strikers. He just doesn't have the legs to do that and when Lampard modus operandi is pressing from the front we understand why he hasn't been playing more.

At least we might be 2 or 3 goals up within those 40 minutes.

26 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

When was the last time Giroud had a good game?

Last night... What about Batshuayi?

1 hour ago, evissy said:

I think:
-We have a good squad. Better than Leicester.
-We are only 10 points behind City. A club that is considered one of the best in the world.
-We know middle of the park but we don't know the boxes - > concede and don't score but have a high possession numbers
-We have 4-5 young players in key roles.
Very inexperienced.
-We lack confidence.
-We have massive injury troubles all season long
-We are building a bright future in expense of this season.
-Chelsea board don't expect CL spot
-Frank is doing well for a first season manager.
-Frank is still one of the smartest men in football.
 

I agree with all that except the board comment. I think they expect us to get CL football that's why they didn't bother investing in January. They're confident Frank can see this out. 

3 minutes ago, charierre said:

last night he actually did ok 

Whilst Giroud definitely isn't the long term answer, the mystery is why Bats has been preferred for the cameo role in previous games? Giroud at least does the basics right, his hold up play alone is far superior and as proved last night he can finish, especially at the near post. It is correctly pointed out by many he can't press. Does Bats honestly bring more in that role consistently? Lamps has to look at his squad available and if pressing from the front isn't an option, change tactics to suit the personnel.

I don't really know why it has been hard for Giroud, there is hardly any competition for the spot when Tammy isn't there and yet somehow he can't get to play at all.

Though if we look at a possible reason, Michy did score last time we played ManUnited, a totally solo created goal out of nowhere. Right before the break he also scored against Hull.

Giroud was a starter for France because he was surrounded by world class talents (and they dislike Benzema that can't play for France) and he didn't need to score any goals in order to become a World Cup winner, Sarri used him last season in Europa league and he did make a decent partnership with Hazard but outside of him being happy when there is a world class player next to him, he has been mostly a bench player in the recent years, I believe that the season before he joined us he was a bench player at Arsenal.

I honestly believe that if Giroud had played and if we had lost anyway, someone would argue that Michy should have been the starter because Giroud hasn't been close to be our starter and there would be many arguments why starting Giroud was a mistake just like now there are arguments why Michy was a starter.

10 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

Lots of people saying Frank can't be expected to do any better with this squad. Wrong. Our squad is a lot better than 1 point per game, which is what it's been for the last 15 games. We're just not being coached well. That's evident from every display, bar the odd one like Tottenham away, where we actually played controlled, intelligent, disciplined football. We're just a ramshackle usually. Movement is so poor, that's the most glaring thing for me. There is no structure or pattern to our play, and our players don't seem to know what they're supposed to be doing. Set-pieces again, we're not being coached properly. Yes belief has ebbed away but this is more about coaching than motivation and psychology. I believe the motivation is there. I don't believe the work on the training ground is any good. We can talk about the ref but ultimately we scored one and they scored two, and they've beaten us three times, and they are sh*t. I want Frank to be given time but thus far I'm not very impressed with what I've seen. Yes there are mitigating factors but some of you lot are overstating this. We should be a lot better than we are, but I'm afraid we have a very, very inexperienced coach and it shows.

You have to think, we lost our best attacking player in the summer. There is no taking away from that. There was no summer window. We were literally relying on a few young players who had returned from loan. Thankfully it worked out with Abraham, otherwise we would be even worse off than we already are.

Not to mention this team has been together for about 7 months. New players coming in including Mount, James, Abraham, Tomori, Zouma, Pulisic. We also have arguably our 3rd best player, Loftus-Cheek, out injured with a long term injury. 

It has all been a bit of a muddle. I'm not saying Lampard has been amazing, because he hasn't, but he's also not had a whole lot to work with. We used to have Costa, Fabregas, Hazard a few seasons ago, but now we have none of them. 

I would say Lampard has done pretty well considering the lack of creativity around Abraham. 

I understand what Davey is saying, Frank has done an incredible job, no doubt about it. He's put us in the driving seat when many thought it wasn't possible, it's just that he seems to be making a lot of strange and silly calls lately. Now I'm not too interested in hindsight, that's why I say what I say before the match has kicked off, I don't think Frank can be blamed for yesterday, the lack of options for him are obvious. 

But it does look like we're not learning from mistakes, I guess it is a season long progress, it's just kind of frightening how bad we are in some areas still. 

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I don't really know why it has been hard for Giroud, there is hardly any competition for the spot when Tammy isn't there and yet somehow he can't get to play at all.

Though if we look at a possible reason, Michy did score last time we played ManUnited, a totally solo created goal out of nowhere. Right before the break he also scored against Hull.

Giroud was a starter for France because he was surrounded by world class talents (and they dislike Benzema that can't play for France) and he didn't need to score any goals in order to become a World Cup winner, Sarri used him last season in Europa league and he did make a decent partnership with Hazard but outside of him being happy when there is a world class player next to him, he has been mostly a bench player in the recent years, I believe that the season before he joined us he was a bench player at Arsenal.

I honestly believe that if Giroud had played and if we had lost anyway, someone would argue that Michy should have been the starter because Giroud hasn't been close to be our starter and there would be many arguments why starting Giroud was a mistake just like now there are arguments why Michy was a starter.

Devils advocate. Starting Giroud and playing a high press would be wrong, changing your tactics to suit him would be smart. We have now lost three times to the poorest United team since the late eighties and at no time looked to change our game plan. We can claim to be unlucky and not had the rub of the green with some decisions but we also have to realise that there is more than one way to win a football match. Sometimes the pragmatic approach getting two banks of four behind the ball doing the simple stuff whilst playing longer to the big man up top can be the answer.  

1 minute ago, charierre said:

Devils advocate. Starting Giroud and playing a high press would be wrong, changing your tactics to suit him would be smart. We have now lost three times to the poorest United team since the late eighties and at no time looked to change our game plan. We can claim to be unlucky and not had the rub of the green with some decisions but we also have to realise that there is more than one way to win a football match. Sometimes the pragmatic approach getting two banks of four behind the ball doing the simple stuff whilst playing longer to the big man up top can be the answer.  

You're right I guess, I'm playing the devils advocate there. I think you're right, if we are missing so many key players and if we know that we probably won't create many chances, our approach needs to be very pragramtic, secure the defense and play according to the available players strength. 

Ironically many were angry at Sarri for not adapting to his players but only playing how he wants the team to play, now it looks like Lampard is doing that much more since Sarri actually had a plan B, it was a false 9 tactic. Lampard might have changed a few formations but our tactic has been the same regardless of the formation and the same issues are still present no matter which player is put in.

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Ped hours ago

I will keep saying that I love Frank Lampard and hope and pray that he remains our boss, for years to come. To do that he will undoubtedly need success.

But, I have to admit that there is a slight concern creeping in at the back of my mind, regarding tactics and game management. I suppose it needs saying, but he is not very good at either - yet! I really do think he needs some experienced coaching help as I am not convinced by the set up he has around him. Brilliant at Academy level yes, but do they have the ability/balls to say to Frank, "listen old mate, I think you are going wrong here"  I have no doubt that Frank has the brains, personality, gravitas, playing history and charisma to be a great coach/manager, but does he have the tactical nouse and man management skills to get the best from a squad? If he doesn't, then it won't really matter who we buy in the Summer 🤥 Therefore, I think that we should be looking for a master tactician who can quickly spot the errors with selection, formation, in-game management and organisation.  Maybe someone like Neil Warnock, Glenn Hoddle, Ruud Gullit or Guus Hiddink………………………………...OK I'll get my coat !!

 

apologies, I clearly posted this in the wrong thread. It is relevant here

3 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

This is how our Premier League results stack up this season for the starting XI.

You'd think that if we have a better record when certain players start, then they'd be the "untouchables" ... the first names on the team sheet ... 

Last night's selections in red. Granted we had a few injuries last night, but still 6 players in the top half of this table were all on the bench rather than in the team ...  Alonso, Barkley, Tomori, Mount, Arrizabalaga, Zouma ...

I have no idea why he doesn't play Alonso or Barkley more often when we have such a strong record when they play. Ditto the best central defenders.

This seems a really dumb thing to do for an intelligent chap like Frank.

Easy to say with the benefit of hindsight but on a results basis and given the points differential between us and United it seems clear to me that our "optimal" starting XI last night should have been along the lines of;

                  Kepa
Azpi - Zouma - Tomori - Alonso
         Kovacic - Jorginho
                 Barkley
    Willian                 Mount
                 Giroud

You can't help but love Frank, however last night for the first time I thought ''Oh Frank, give over!''. It's embarrassing, and unless he's constantly trying to shield the players, completely naive. 

The same post match press conference every week. ''Wasn't that sort of game. Can't score. Need to work and improve. Our season starts here''. I don't think trotting out the same old catchphrases each week really cuts it given we've not played well for about three months. You have to admire his ability to appear positive but he is starting to resemble a dodgy (and somewhat out of his depth) car salesman who uses the same old spiel on every poor punter that happens to stumble in. It's time for drastic change, either in attitude or approach. 

I accept the glaring holes in our squad, but he has to start telling the truth. The first thing any weak team/manager has to do is to stop leaking goals. Our defence is shambolic. Every chance that falls to any opposition player almost certainly ends up in our net. Teams have two shots on goal against us, and typically end up scoring both. He needs to address it fast. The current personnel/system is not working. There was a period of time when the partnership of Zouma/Tomori actually started to look like our best. Why has Tomori been completely frozen out, and why has the return of Rudiger actually made us worse!?... We even played 3-5-2 for a while and whilst it may not be Lampard's preferred system, we have to stop conceding every shot against us. 

Having such concern about not taking our chances is completely flawed unless you have a team strong enough up front to comfortably score two or three in every game - something which we are clearly not capable of right now.

Start telling it like it is, Frank. We desperately need something new otherwise forget 4th (5th) place - we'll be lucky to finish in the top 10! 

Edited February 18, 20206 yr by Elliott

51 minutes ago, driller97 said:

Willian, Pedro and Batshuayi are 3 awful awful players and I don't know why we still have them. Also the people clamoring about lampard needing to start Giroud as if hes some superstar, have they not seen him play before? Hes an okay player to bring off the bench, but there's no way he can start a game, though its still a better option than Bats.

With Ziyech arriving in the summer, Pedro will leave and Willian is a 50/50 chance of staying at this stage depending on his contract situation and whether we have transfer targets in mind that could replace him. I don't know whether the club is seriously interested in Sancho or whether it's media hyperbole.

Before last night, I had Batshuayi ahead of Giroud in the pecking order. Batshuayi is a player with significant weaknesses, but he also has a knack of scoring goals. In contrast, I remember how poor Giroud was against West Ham about two months back and he could barely press. Immediately after the West Ham match he was dropped and barely featured since.

However, after last night I'm re-evaluating my stance on the two strikers. Giroud did play better than Batshuayi, but it goes to show how poor our striker situation is when we're relying upon an academy product to score our goals. That's why I've been pushing hard for the club to sign Werner in the summer.

7 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Teams have two shots on goal against us, and typically end up scoring both. He needs to address it fast.

Easier said than done. He inherited a shambolic goalkeeper who couldn't save anything all season until it got so bad that old Caballero had to step in to try to salvage the situation. I don't think it's hyperbole to say we have had one of the worst goalkeepers in the league this season. And it's hard to account for something like that as you'd expect your world-record goalkeeper to be at least half decent and save some shots.

The CBs have been a mess if we are honest. Every one of them have had a purple patch of some sort before performances plummeted. Both goals yesterday you would expect top-class CBs to deal with.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Elliott said:

You can't help but love Frank, however last night for the first time I thought ''Oh Frank, give over!''. It's embarrassing, and unless he's constantly trying to shield the players, completely naive.

Last night was the first time I started fearing for Frank's future.

He's done a lot right to have us contending for a Champions League spot, blooding youth and to be in the knockout stages of the CL considering the issues he inherited as coach, but our form since late November has been worrying and we have a board that does not a history of patience though maybe this is finally changing.

The form slump seem to coincide when Kante returned from injury which disrupted the Jorginho-Kovacic partnership that was functioning beautifully in his absence. Frank needs to identify a solution to maximize Kante's potential without disrupting the above partnership.

Frank has now coached 37 games with the club and his record is not too dissimilar to Klopp's first 37 games with Liverpool and Solskjaer's first 37 games with United.

• Lampard = 37 (18-8-11)
• Klopp = 37 (17-12-8)
• Solskjaer = 37 (19-7-11)

I was disappointed last night for a variety of reasons. I was optimistic that the winter break would recharge the batteries of the playing squad and have us ready to fire for the last third of the season but the same problems resurfaced again. We allow too much space for opposition teams to kill us on the counter, hence the large number of goals we've been conceding this season.

Further, Frank needs to make a definitive call on Kepa and Caballero. I understood his reason to drop Kepa, but Caballero's weaknesses are evident and have arguably cost us points against both Leicester City and Manchester United.

New players won't change much this is and will continue to be a coaching issue the team is setup wrong you can see it Carragher highlighted it yesterday before the match and new players won't change how we approach games what it will do is make a expensively assembled squad look like they don't know how to play football

Double post.

23 minutes ago, Elliott said:

You can't help but love Frank, however last night for the first time I thought ''Oh Frank, give over!''. It's embarrassing, and unless he's constantly trying to shield the players, completely naive. 

The same post match press conference every week. ''Wasn't that sort of game. Can't score. Need to work and improve. Our season starts here''. I don't think trotting out the same old catchphrases each week really cuts it given we've not played well for about three months now. You have to admire his ability to appear positive but he is starting to resemble a dodgy (and somewhat out of his depth) car salesman who uses the same old spiel on every poor punter that happens to stumble in. It's time for drastic change, either in attitude or approach. 

I accept the glaring holes in our squad, but he has to start telling the truth. The first thing any weak team/manager has to do is to stop leaking goals. Our defence is shambolic. Every chance that falls to any opposition player almost certainly ends up in our net. Teams have two shots on goal against us, and typically end up scoring both. He needs to address it fast. The current personnel/system is not working. There was a period of time when the partnership of Zouma/Tomori actually started to look like our best. Why has Tomori been completely frozen out, and why has the return of Rudiger actually made us worse!?... We even played 3-5-2 for a while and whilst it may not be Lampard's preferred system, we have to stop conceding every shot against us. 

Having a concern about not taking our chances is completely flawed unless you have a team strong enough up front to comfortably score two or three in every game - something which we are clearly not capable of right now.

Start telling it like it is, Frank. We desperately need something new otherwise forget 4th (5th) place - we'll be lucky to finish in the top 10! 

Yet you say our defence is shambolic.

Of course Frank is defending the players. That's what managers do.

They also have to come with ideas of how to resolve bad results. Its very easy to criticize but unless you come up with some solutions its hard to accept your criticisms of Frank.

"Tell it like is?" How do you think the players would feel if he came out and said we aren't good enough? We aren't. The squad needs some new blood and attacking talent. I'm not convinced Willian, Pedro or Giroud would be at the club without the ban. Batshuayi would probably be at Palace. We have lost by far our best player and we need to find a new way to play without a top quality forward. For me our defence is better than our attack and the defensive problems arise when we fail to score. We lose focus and heart when we either run out of ideas or fail to score.

It's very easy to criticize Frank but he has been dealt a very tricky hand. I don't buy the line that the board are expecting CL football and I always thought we would finish 6th - 8th. I think most fans thought that but some have raised their expectations because of the good run earlier in the season. There was always the possibility that the young players would hit some kind of wall and that has happened. We need to leave Frank in place and let him learn on the job. He is smart and he will learn. He was extremely brave to take on this job this early in his career and he deserves all the support he can get.

 

43 minutes ago, Jezz said:

Last night was the first time I started fearing for Frank's future.

He's done a lot right to have us contending for a Champions League spot, blooding youth and to be in the knockout stages of the CL considering the issues he inherited as coach, but our form since late November has been worrying and we have a board that does not a history of patience though maybe this is finally changing.

The form slump seem to coincide when Kante returned from injury which disrupted the Jorginho-Kovacic partnership that was functioning beautifully in his absence. Frank needs to identify a solution to maximize Kante's potential without disrupting the above partnership.

Frank has now coached 37 games with the club and his record is not too dissimilar to Klopp's first 37 games with Liverpool and Solskjaer's first 37 games with United.

• Lampard = 37 (18-8-11)
• Klopp = 37 (17-12-8)
• Solskjaer = 37 (19-7-11)

I was disappointed last night for a variety of reasons. I was optimistic that the winter break would recharge the batteries of the playing squad and have us ready to fire for the last third of the season but the same problems resurfaced again. We allow too much space for opposition teams to kill us on the counter, hence the large number of goals we've been conceding this season.

Further, Frank needs to make a definitive call on Kepa and Caballero. I understood his reason to drop Kepa, but Caballero's weaknesses are evident and have arguably cost us points against both Leicester City and Manchester United.

As much as I'm very sad for Kante getting injured again I'm quite excited to see the Jorgi, Kova and Mount midfield back in action for an extended period. Thought all three were good last night, especially Kova.

How they perform Vs Spurs and especially Bayern will give us an indication on how sustainable a midfield it is in the long run.

42 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Easier said than done. He inherited a shambolic goalkeeper who couldn't save anything all season until it got so bad that old Caballero had to step in to try to salvage the situation. I don't think it's hyperbole to say we have had one of the worst goalkeepers in the league this season. And it's hard to account for something like that as you'd expect your world-record goalkeeper to be at least half decent and save some shots.

The CBs have been a mess if we are honest. Every one of them have had a purple patch of some sort before performances plummeted. Both goals yesterday you would expect top-class CBs to deal with.

 

 

Agree, but in which case, you change the setup to provide the GK more protection. Doesn't seem willing to do that, though. Also, a bit of a moot point given he's now injured, but I would argue that if you are struggling defensively, you should also revert to basics and put a player such as Kante back into a holding role until things begin to settle down. There are alternatives.  

30 minutes ago, Andy North said:

Yet you say our defence is shambolic.

Of course Frank is defending the players. That's what managers do.

They also have to come with ideas of how to resolve bad results. Its very easy to criticize but unless you come up with some solutions its hard to accept your criticisms of Frank.

"Tell it like is?" How do you think the players would feel if he came out and said we aren't good enough? We aren't. The squad needs some new blood and attacking talent. I'm not convinced Willian, Pedro or Giroud would be at the club without the ban. Batshuayi would probably be at Palace. We have lost by far our best player and we need to find a new way to play without a top quality forward. For me our defence is better than our attack and the defensive problems arise when we fail to score. We lose focus and heart when we either run out of ideas or fail to score.

It's very easy to criticize Frank but he has been dealt a very tricky hand. I don't buy the line that the board are expecting CL football and I always thought we would finish 6th - 8th. I think most fans thought that but some have raised their expectations because of the good run earlier in the season. There was always the possibility that the young players would hit some kind of wall and that has happened. We need to leave Frank in place and let him learn on the job. He is smart and he will learn. He was extremely brave to take on this job this early in his career and he deserves all the support he can get.

 

Sorry, but I'm not sure I see your point. I agree regarding the support, but that doesn't mean we should blindly accept the fact that our football has been awful for three months and shows no obvious sign of improvement, or for that matter, attempts by the manager to change it. 

Afraid I disagree on the defensive point. I would argue that our defence is much worse than our attack. We have kept 7 league clean sheets this season and unless that is addressed first, results will not improve. Frank is paid (and will know full well) that it's his responsibility to come up with solutions, yet we see hardly any change on the pitch from week to week. It's not necessarily that it's easy to criticize rather, the only observation that can be made. Our defence is woeful!

I don't think it's harsh to say that it's time he stopped trying to kid us all in his post-match interviews, and it's time we started seeing improvements rather than just talk. 

Edited February 18, 20206 yr by Elliott