1 hour ago, RMH said:

The thing is that the bold part is wrong. Tuchel’s tactics have been great against top opposition but has been sh*t against dross teams. Barnsley, Southampton, Leeds or yesterday Sheffield were much better teams than us, and created enough chances to have beaten us comfortably (maybe not Leeds). So my question is why we dominate Liverpool and Atlético, top teams with very different styles, but get completely dominated and overrun by Barnsley and Sheffield Utd? So far it’s been great that we get points or got to the semifinals, but we will start losing to dross unless he changes something when playing these teams.

I think I said it there, lower teams focus on keeping their shape in defense first and foremost and we simply struggle to unlock those defenses due to the lack of experience.

Tuchel didn't really have the time to make us tactically better in that aspect yet, he clearly focused on making us defensively stable and that's the right decision.

I think also that it's super important to win the small games, I think we need time but in all honesty even if we played well against Atletico we should also acknowledge the fact that the way they played against us is not much different from how Wolves and Sheffield did. We had more or less the standard 60% of possession against all teams with Tuchel, maybe a bit less in the second game vs Atletico and vs Man United but I think that the big thing that changed was that we no longer dominate possession only to lose the game after the 1 shot on target or after one counter attack, we also took advantage of the fact that Liverpool is much weaker now and I think that there is a good reason why most teams prefer to simply wait for the counter attack - we're really a good possession based team with Jorginho and Kovacic and in the past it has worked for the opposition plenty of times to simply wait in order to give us a few sucker punches but that's no longer the case when we're more solid in defense.

There is also the mentality factor, for example yesterday after Sheffield missed that wide open header I wrote automatically that with that miss we will keep the clean sheet, our opposition spends much more energy to even have a good chance against us and then the psychological effect may take place if the player spent 60+ minutes running around like a headless chicken so he might just miss that one clear-cut chance because he feels like he was just a bystander for the whole game and he simply misses a chance that otherwise is always a goal...

 

Edited March 22, 20215 yr by Gol15

4 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

But what were the chances that we created from open play yesterday? 

We had 3 shots on target yesterday. Pulisic when he latched onto a poor pass from Norwood, Ziyech's goal in 92nd minute and I don't remember the other.

How many times have we played a game recently where the game ends and you think to yourself that their keep has played a blinder... Or at the very least made a top class save? 

Yesterday was bad, I don't disagree there.

Thought Giroud, Mount and CHO all had shockers yesterday though. That certainly didn't help and a few of them need to be worried about falling down the pecking order.

Liverpool & Everton before Leeds were great performances. Atletico was one for the history books and as for the Leeds game we had an eye and a half on Atletico at that point.

 

 

59 minutes ago, RMH said:

The thing is that the bold part is wrong. Tuchel’s tactics have been great against top opposition but has been sh*t against dross teams. Barnsley, Southampton, Leeds or yesterday Sheffield were much better teams than us, and created enough chances to have beaten us comfortably (maybe not Leeds). So my question is why we dominate Liverpool and Atlético, top teams with very different styles, but get completely dominated and overrun by Barnsley and Sheffield Utd? So far it’s been great that we get points or got to the semifinals, but we will start losing to dross unless he changes something when playing these teams.

I think dominated is perhaps a bit unfair. Let's also acknowledge that we've rotated against weaker teams but largely played our best squad against the top sides.

Tuchel has made us predictable but he has also made us stable. For me you're in a better position to win when you know you only have to pinch a goal knowing you're less likely to concede, rather than Frank's defence when we often had to score 2 or 3 goals to win because our defence was at times appalling.

The key i think is about ruthlessness on the counter. I'd like to see us when the moment is right go quick to try and counter rather than always going for the slow build up with a billion passes around the back. People often say Jose's teams were boring but they knew how to score when the moment presented. Would love to see us back to that style.

I do think much of this has to do with not having a top striker. A perennial issue for us since Costa left.

3 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Liverpool & Everton before Leeds were great performances. Atletico was one for the history books and as for the Leeds game we had an eye and a half on Atletico at that point.

Liverpool was good but helped by their high defensive line. They allowed us to continuously have 30+ yards of space to run into. Barely anyone else in the league pushes up that high, that often. 

The Everton result was goals from an own goal and a penalty. Barring the Havertz goal ruled out for handball we created little in open play until we were 2-0 up and Everton were forced to open up. 

I'm not trying to diminish our victories but trying to be realisitic about where we are as a team right now and looking at where we need to improve to take the team to level where we're likely to win things. 

47 minutes ago, Sindre said:

You can't say we were dominated by Barnsley and Sheffield. That's just plain wrong.

And we have dominated sides like Burnley, Newcastle & Everton under Tuchel. So while it's been a mixed bags against some of the smaller teams it not been all bad.

Also worth nothing Tuchel is juggling three competitions right now. Yesterday was Sheffields once chance to make something out of their season and they were very fired up against our B-side basically. A win was plenty good enough.

 

Also, the b-side, imho, almost dominated Sheffield yesterday (without much of creating chances of course) until we scored the 1:0, who knows what would have happened if we didn't get the lead. It was basically the second half that got wild for 15-20 minutes. TT brought Azpi on who I guess was supposed to establish some order as the captain - which didn't work out really but that was the plan imho.

 

@Gol15 , well, then we have to disagree 🙂 I thought we could have easily scored 2-3 goals against Liverpool and also Atleti. It is true that we aren't creating dozens of chances per game but the ones we do create (and waste - or didn't get due VAR) are of high quality and there are a lot of situations were it's basically the one last pass that got f'ed up where it seems the players aren't 100% synched - which I believe will get better every week. Yesterday was basically the b-side attacking + Gilmore in the CM so it is of little surprise that we struggled to create a fluid attacking movement. What was probably a bit surprising for TT was that the defensive system broke down a couple of times in the second half which lead to a bit of a chaos and we were allowing possibly more chances from open play than in the other 13 games combined (quality wise + bit of an exaggeration).

 

When I see Mount/Werner/Havertz/Kova and Ziyech play together right now I see a much better attacking game than say in ther first 5-6 games under TT. But well, we may disagree - no problem (as long as we're winning..).

 

 

Edited March 22, 20215 yr by weetee

17 minutes ago, weetee said:

 

@Gol15 , well, then we have to disagree 🙂 I thought we could have easily scored 2-3 goals against Liverpool and also Atleti. It is true that we aren't creating dozens of chances per game but the ones we do create (and waste - or didn't get due VAR) are of high quality and there are a lot of situations were it's basically the one last pass that got f'ed up where it seems the players aren't 100% synched - which I believe will get better every week. Yesterday was basically the b-side attacking + Gilmore in the CM so it is of little surprise that we struggled to create a fluid attacking movement. What was probably a bit surprising for TT was that the defensive system broke down a couple of times in the second half which lead to a bit of a chaos and we were allowing possibly more chances from open play than in the other 13 games combined (quality wise + bit of an exaggeration).

 

When I see Mount/Werner/Havertz/Kova and Ziyech play together right now I see a much better attacking game than say in ther first 5-6 games under TT. But well, we may disagree - no problem (as long as we're winning..).

 

 

I don't really say the opposite of what you're saying, I'm just focusing on the fact that we do get have the ball and have been in control against basically all teams that we have played under Tuchel, we dominate possession against both big teams and small teams.
The difference is that the smaller teams just focus way more on their own defensive shape. And I said that there is a good reason for that, if they open up that would be suicidal since we do have players that will quickly take any given space. In the end of the day when we played Leeds we had around 10 shots on target, I see the end stat that says that we didn't score but I think that after Tuchel has had a full pre-season that next season out of 10 shots we might just score 4 goals the next time we play Leeds for example...

Basically I think Tuchel's tactics has been great overall even if we didn't win all games... It's important to get the results and to win the small games but we're getting there, I also agree that our team looks better now than before, even Ziyech has scored now in 2 games in a row for example and he has been the player that I was the most disappointed in but he clearly has the quality and he has been showing it in the best possible way in the recent games so if he can do it, Werner and Havertz can do it too.

Edited March 22, 20215 yr by Gol15

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

You can't say we were dominated by Barnsley and Sheffield. That's just plain wrong.

And we have dominated sides like Burnley, Newcastle & Everton under Tuchel. So while it's been a mixed bags against some of the smaller teams it not been all bad.

Also worth nothing Tuchel is juggling three competitions right now. Yesterday was Sheffields once chance to make something out of their season and they were very fired up against our B-side basically. A win was plenty good enough.

 

It’s not wrong, we had the possession but Barnsley had 14 shots, 4 on target, versus 1 for us. I’d call that to be worst than Barnsley and it was more embarrassing than Arsenal game. Yesterday against Sheffield we had about one shot in the first half, and the second half we were overrun by Sheffield who, for the lack of quality in their finishing, could have scored two or three. We had a grand total of three shots on target against a team that is possibly one of the worst to have played in the PL in the last few seasons. We were great against Burnley, who were playing good football for a change then, and against one of the best Everton sides in the last years. I give you Newcastle. So no, I’m not wrong, simply we can’t judge this to be good enough when not that long ago some were all up in arms for performances that were not worse.

12 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Gotta take the shots st United when you can Dean 😉

Was hardly a shot at TT, question was about motivation and for me that is more on the players than the manager.

Fair enough, but then you could at least have included  Spurs too 😉 

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I think we clearly lack some experience, leadership and decisiveness against lower teams that mostly focus on being good defensively while at the same time bigger teams dare to play a more open game and that leaves us more space in attack. But the players still run and make the effort just as they would do against a bigger team, I don't think our players are saving their best for the best games, I do however think that it's a good thing that even when the players find it more difficult that we can win anyway - that is something that big teams have, they push for a good results despite an average performance.

It's all about the small things but in general I think that the fact that we do have over 60% possession most of the time helps us to find a way to win, Tuchel's tactics are really good even if he had almost no time to work on anything in particular. Even a well oiled team like Atletico Madrid couldn't create much at all against us because of the way we play now - in the first game we controlled the game so well and that 1 ball came and Giroud took it brilliantly, in the second game Atletico Madrid simply had to try something more and that resulted in our counter attack and that was game over.

If a team wants to score against us they have to work really hard for it, this wasn't the case earlier in the season and last season either but now we press really well and we don't allow much space in the final third so the opposition really must take a risk and put more players forward but that comes with a price, Lampard's tactic included us having more players going forward and while we were scoring many goals we were also conceding a whole lot as well and it was easy to break our defense.

I don't think you can compare tennis to football in that sense because before when we had a more experienced team that had more world class players, the smaller games were more secured wins than now, and we had this attitude and stubbornness and a huge will to just brush off the smaller teams, if anything I believe that we have lost a bit of that kind of champions mentality that someone like Djokovic has shown, I guess it's normal as well since we're building up a new generation.

I wasn’t asking for an essay Gol 😉 . Yes I agree we don’t have that champions’ mentality yet. But we’re on the right path. Remember earlier in the season when everyone complained about how we couldn’t beat the teams above us? now we’re beating them as well as those below but still some complain. Tough crowd 

2 hours ago, Dean said:

Fair enough, but then you could at least have included  Spurs too 😉 

Fair point lol.

 

We got some luck from awful finishing yesterday but massive props to how good our defence has been under TT. Most of the games the opponents have barley had a sniff and to get 12 clean sheets out of 14 while conceding just 2 is really special.

Given we have tight games coming up against Porto, WBA, Palace and Brighton we will get chances to add to it as well.

36 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Fair point lol.

 

We got some luck from awful finishing yesterday but massive props to how good our defence has been under TT. Most of the games the opponents have barley had a sniff and to get 12 clean sheets out of 14 while conceding just 2 is really special.

Given we have tight games coming up against Porto, WBA, Palace and Brighton we will get chances to add to it as well.

I thought we were a little fortunate in that 2nd half yesterday to not concede at least one. 

Now if TT is often lucky no problem yet on another day.

Notice OGS mentioned fatigue after midweek and maybe that hit us too, despite the 4/5 changes. 

14 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

I thought we were a little fortunate in that 2nd half yesterday to not concede at least one. 

Now if TT is often lucky no problem yet on another day.

Notice OGS mentioned fatigue after midweek and maybe that hit us too, despite the 4/5 changes. 

Everyone is suffering for it, the more success the side the more they suffer. Man city are handling it best. Rotating and still dominate. TT is rotating to try and keep us fresh like City do, only we don't look as good as them at this stage.

The congested season lacking preseason added to our match against Bayern did not help.

Really it would have been far to sensible to cancel this international round and let the players have a break. Fresher for us, fresher for the euros.

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Fair point lol.

 

We got some luck from awful finishing yesterday but massive props to how good our defence has been under TT. Most of the games the opponents have barley had a sniff and to get 12 clean sheets out of 14 while conceding just 2 is really special.

Given we have tight games coming up against Porto, WBA, Palace and Brighton we will get chances to add to it as well.

Yeah we definitely got some luck. they deserved to equalise and I thought they would to set up a nail biter, but it wasn’t to be.... this time at least. But It (losing to one of the lesser sides) will of course happen. I’ll go out on a limb and predict that of the games you mention we’ll have a defeat and also a goal fest (in our favour). I just can’t imagine the current pattern continuing much longer.

6 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

But what were the chances that we created from open play yesterday? 

We had 3 shots on target yesterday. Pulisic when he latched onto a poor pass from Norwood, Ziyech's goal in 92nd minute and I don't remember the other.

How many times have we played a game recently where the game ends and you think to yourself that their keep has played a blinder... Or at the very least made a top class save? 

I guess it depends on how you define chance created.

In terms of getting shots away yes there's room for improvement (although there has been games like Burnley and Everton where we did create numerous shot actions and the keeper prevented a cricket score) but we are reguarly getting to the point of one more pass and we're in but unfortunately our players are making the wrong decisions in those moments far too often.

Edited March 22, 20215 yr by Argo

Dont think we would have thought this while Lamps was still here but yesterday seems like we badly missed Werner and Havertz as our attack lacked cohesion.

10 minutes ago, Argo said:

I guess it depends on how you define chance created.

In terms of getting shots away yes there's room for improvement (although there has been games like Burnley and Everton where we did create numerous shot actions and the keeper prevented a cricket score) but we are reguarly getting to the point of one more pass and we're in but unfortunately our players are making the wrong decisions in those moments far too often.

As I said in an earlier post, a lot of chances we created against Everton came after we were 2-0 up. So either their heads went down or had to push out more to chase a result. 

But regardless of how we're going to define chances created the point stands that goal scoring is our weakness right now. 

And in my opinion that's Tuchel's big challenge. How does he transition this defensively solid team into one that score goals more easily? 

Because once we become a genuine threat going forward we could quickly be one of the best sides in England (if not Europe based on how poorly the Italian and Spanish sides have faired in Europe). 

Our football under Tuchel is very similar to Sarri and Lampard (after his first 3 months into the job). We relied on Hazard under Sarri and once Tammy's goals dried up post January last season we really struggled to create chances. This is why Roman gave Lampard a £200m war chest to sign Ziyech, Harverts and Werner. Unfortunately we're still struggling to make our possession count in attack efficiency so Tuchel has moved us to 3 at the back to make us a harder team to counter against and its working brilliantly.

Our problem offensively has clear cause. We attacked with only 5 players and in smaller note we don't get the most of our attacker due to play style, it is that simple. 

We had the same problem under Conte. In the beginning of our title winning season, we destroyed everybody with kante and matic partnership. As season progress and team understand how to play against 343,we struggled to score. Then Conte brought in Fabregas and suddenly our offense looked wonderful again but it did make us more vulnerable defensively because not only matic was better defensively but Fabregas movement make it difficult for us to defend once we lost the ball. 

So in our case if we still want to play 343 and we want to create more, a cm that provide more output offensively is needed (pogba, thiago, ndombele etc). One idea is to play Mount deeper because his line breaking passes is pretty good. 

Another way to make us better offensively is to play faster tempo with more movement which suit most of our attacker but it mean we will lose the ball more and prone to counter more. 

Last is the most straight forward, just sign wc attacker preferably technical one. If we have Barcelona MSN, we probably won't have problem creating chances against anybody

 

Edited March 23, 20215 yr by Bob stark

I don't see any reasons to complain about the result ( didn't we win?) and performance on Sunday. We played pretty much the second 11 after a tough mid week game, against a team full rested and had nothing else but this match to play for. We can't assume Giroud will score a goal everytime he gets on the field, or Pullisic will setup 4-5 chances a game.  We created enough chances to get the second goal before they missed their chance, and to be honest it be one of those lucky game if they manage to draw the game in 90 minutes. We can't have it both ways, either play it stable and grind out wins and concede some draws, or go all guns blazing and suffer the inevitable loses.

Manager of the month!!

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2080145

What a legend. Here's hoping he gets it right again tomorrow and we carry on the momentum. 

Edited April 2, 20215 yr by LongtimerLurker

28 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Manager of the month!!

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2080145

What a legend. Here's hoping he gets it right again tomorrow and we carry on the momentum. 

That is dropping point tomorrow then, thanks curse!

on Werner miss: it was a bad pass from Gouindogan 😁😁😁

I've decided, I dont like him and i don't rate him. The difference in how he treats players is disgraceful at times, I never bought into the hype with the results we've had as we continued to play sh*t in attack, going ultra defensive and being totally reliant on Mason Mount to get goals. He's struggled to get results against much lesser teams, and today his luck ran out. We don't make top 4 now, this last 3 or 4 months will have been a complete waste of time.

Edited April 3, 20215 yr by dkw

During his reign, we've performed well against strong teams so that buys him goodwill.

Just astonished he didn't take Jorginho off at half time. Baffling!

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

I've decided, I dont like him and i don't rate him. The difference in how he treats players is disgraceful at times, I never bought into the hype with the results we've had as we continued to play sh*t in attack, totally reliant on Mason Mount to get goals. He's struggled to get results against much lesser teams, and today his luck ran out. We don't make top 4 now, this last 3 or 4 months will have been a complete waste of time.

To be fair, there are some bang average players in this side, a few real promising players, and a few has beens.  Look at the striking options, Werner (awful), Giroud (brilliant on his day, but getting on a bit now), Tammy.......Well he's a Championship striker at best.  Jorginhio has never done anything for me, Alonso is another one who's seen better days, Azpi is not a captain, I don't care what anyone says.  We need a bit of a rebuild.  I'd like to see who he brings it, needs to be at least two decent strikers.

Edited April 3, 20215 yr by Eight Times