7 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

You just know if we sell someone like Werner to whoever he will bang them in for fun.

Just how our luck with forwards go.

It is little to do with luck - and more to do with not playing to the strengths of the strikers we have.

The only player up top who fits this current system to any extent is Kai, who has the skills, brain and movement to make himself some space.

Werner is all pace and needs space to be played in behind, Lukaku is more in that mould as well, just with a bigger body (but same awful first touch)

2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

It is little to do with luck - and more to do with not playing to the strengths of the strikers we have.

The only player up top who fits this current system to any extent is Kai, who has the skills, brain and movement to make himself some space.

Werner is all pace and needs space to be played in behind, Lukaku is more in that mould as well, just with a bigger body (but same awful first touch)

Lukaku scores goals whoever the manager is, whoever the team is, whatever the style is, whatever league it is. Thats why i wanted Lukaku, give him the service he will score.

He scored goals in a relegation counter attack team in West Brom, Possession based Martinez Everton side, even playing from the right cutting onto he left he scored. In a big club like Utd in his first season he could a good amount, in a counter attack team. He scored goals in Serie A in a 3 at the back system, In a defensive Conte team. He scored goals for Belgium under both Wilmots and Martinez

Werner gets lots of chances he just misses most of them. Havertz gets chances too, sometimes he passes more than the other two like he did VS Watford which is fair enough, but he also misses chances. Before he got injured VS West Ham he was put through and instead of cutting inside Zouma and shooting, he tried to go on the outside and got tackled. If Werner took his chances last season and also took pens which at one point last season he was our pen taker he would of easily got 25-30 goals in all comps.

People make it more complicated than it actually is.

Edited December 5, 20214 yr by jack_super_class

15 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

You do realise Klopp had a similar type striker when he took over called Christian Benteke and he couldn't wait to get rid 

I have stopped commenting because there are too much nonsense. But It is getting worse,Benteke and Lukakau are 2 very2 different player. 

16 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I have stopped commenting because there are too much nonsense. But It is getting worse,Benteke and Lukakau are 2 very2 different player. 

Think we have a lot of concerned fans on here that TT won't be long for the club if we go through the usual winter slump. 

TT seems to be he most universally loved manager for our fanbase we have had in some time, and arguably our best one since Jose mark 1, so the thought if the axe being sharpened for him means those more seen as responsible for our downturn, Lukaku, Jorginho, board and AC/Rudiger for contract situation, misfiring attackers, general injuries and even Mendy, are getting annilated on here. Whether it is fair or not.

5 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Think we have a lot of concerned fans on here that TT won't be long for the club if we go through the usual winter slump. 

TT seems to be he most universally loved manager for our fanbase we have had in some time, and arguably our best one since Jose mark 1, so the thought if the axe being sharpened for him means those more seen as responsible for our downturn, Lukaku, Jorginho, board and AC/Rudiger for contract situation, misfiring attackers, general injuries and even Mendy, are getting annilated on here. Whether it is fair or not.

Who else apart from you has been talking about TT getting the axe ? 

47 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Who else apart from you has been talking about TT getting the axe ? 

Its in the name, there we have it Axman is Roman

4 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Think we have a lot of concerned fans on here that TT won't be long for the club if we go through the usual winter slump. 

TT seems to be he most universally loved manager for our fanbase we have had in some time, and arguably our best one since Jose mark 1, so the thought if the axe being sharpened for him means those more seen as responsible for our downturn, Lukaku, Jorginho, board and AC/Rudiger for contract situation, misfiring attackers, general injuries and even Mendy, are getting annilated on here. Whether it is fair or not.

I completerly agree that we look better without Lukaku and he hasn't played well recently (last 2 games he was clearly not fit so I don't put that on him).But some of the arguments here are nonsense. Comparing benteke to Lukaku is just laughable. 

My biggest concern for our slump is not Lukaku nor offense not even defensively but 3 dumb goals that we gave up. Goals change game, when you give up easy goal, it destroy everything

3 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I completerly agree that we look better without Lukaku and he hasn't played well recently (last 2 games he was clearly not fit so I don't put that on him).But some of the arguments here are nonsense. Comparing benteke to Lukaku is just laughable. 

My biggest concern for our slump is not Lukaku nor offense not even defensively but 3 dumb goals that we gave up. Goals change game, when you give up easy goal, it destroy everything

Agree - of the goals we have conceded against utd and then against westham. 4 of the last 5 goals have been defensive errors - when seemingly not under a great deal of pressure either. No system manager can account for that.

On the forwards - i think for this system to work we need better fullbacks or change to a back 4. With Azpi(last game) and Alonso- there isnt much threat and teams infact are forcing us wide and both watford and Westham have phsyical defenders who were good in the air and confident in their approach.

I think Tuchel needs a plan B - the plan B seems to be always a personal change but a formation change here and there wouldnt hurt that much. especially with now alonso injured maybe the five attackers can be 3 forwards and two midfielders instead of 3 forwards and 2 fullbacks. by tweaking the formation

He needs to score a goal on Wednesday, just to get a bit of confidence back. The Lukaku we got against Arsenal and Villa was a very distant memory right now.

I don't know if it was the same here but where I was at the time there was a big debate over whether we should have kept young Lukaku instead of bringing in a 32 year old Eto'o?

I'd take our version of Eto'o over this Rom let alone the raw version.

5 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Who else apart from you has been talking about TT getting the axe ? 

No one else. I doubt I am the only one with the concern though given what we have seen happen to past managers though.

5 hours ago, charierre said:

Its in the name, there we have it Axman is Roman

Ah that would be something, being able to invest in our club like that and sign star players. Unfortunately I am not Spartacus.

22 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

No one else. I doubt I am the only one with the concern though given what we have seen happen to past managers though.

Ah that would be something, being able to invest in our club like that and sign star players. Unfortunately I am not Spartacus.

Mourinho got half a seasons worth of relegation level results before he was fired, likewise Conte. Lampard had a sustained spell of relegation form in his first season and survived, Sarri broke the record for our biggest defeat in two decades twice in a fortnight with the Stamford Bridge crowd demanding his head on a plate but he survived.

We may not let things fester the way United and Arsenal do but the narrative that we sack managers at the first sign of trouble just isn't true and it won't be the case with Tuchel either.

Edited December 6, 20214 yr by Argo

9 minutes ago, Argo said:

Mourinho got half a seasons worth of relegation level results before he was fired, likewise Conte. Lampard had a sustained spell of relegation form in his first season and survived, Sarri broke the record for our biggest defeat in two decades twice in a fortnight with the Stamford Bridge crowd demanding his head on a plate but he survived.

We may not let things fester the way United and Arsenal do but the narrative that we sack managers at the first sign of trouble just isn't true and it won't be the case with Tuchel either.

Jose and Lamps were different though. Roman was clearly reluctant to sack them based on having done so quickly to Jose the first time during that season, and Lamps was supposedly promised a lot more leeway in season one due to the transfer ban.

Conte Roman clearly formed quite a disliking too. I think he hoped to make him quit, when that did not work he waited until the last possible moment to sack him before the season in the hope the season would still go well and he could build a case to stop Conte receiving his severance.

Far as Sarri goes we were not that bad under him, couple of bad results sure but top 3 and the Uefa cup. Pretty decent. Roman has also shown a thick skin when it comes to the fans wants, he did appoint Rafa after all.

Just saying where Roman is concerned nothing is off the table.

11 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Jose and Lamps were different though. Roman was clearly reluctant to sack them based on having done so quickly to Jose the first time during that season, and Lamps was supposedly promised a lot more leeway in season one due to the transfer ban.

Conte Roman clearly formed quite a disliking too. I think he hoped to make him quit, when that did not work he waited until the last possible moment to sack him before the season in the hope the season would still go well and he could build a case to stop Conte receiving his severance.

Far as Sarri goes we were not that bad under him, couple of bad results sure but top 3 and the Uefa cup. Pretty decent. Roman has also shown a thick skin when it comes to the fans wants, he did appoint Rafa after all.

Just saying where Roman is concerned nothing is off the table.

But history also suggests that the success (both with us and his general career success) will give him credit in the bank.

The only time it didn't was Robbie but that was unique circumstances (the UCL being a gift from the gods and Roman not wanting to give him the full time gig anyway).

Just now, Argo said:

But history also suggests that the success (both with us and his general career success) will give him credit in the bank.

The only time it didn't was Robbie but that was unique circumstances (the UCL being a gift from the gods and Roman not wanting to give him the full time gig anyway).

Fair point there, although if we are considering past successes have to also remember AVB won a treble before coming to us, and Big Phil was a world cup winner, both went as soon as they had a sustained spell of trouble.

3 hours ago, Argo said:

I don't know if it was the same here but where I was at the time there was a big debate over whether we should have kept young Lukaku instead of bringing in a 32 year old Eto'o?

I'd take our version of Eto'o over this Rom let alone the raw version.

Well then, since he's already here have some faith that he'll do well. He played less than 15 games so far so let's see how well he can be when he's fully fit.

Morata and Werner got a full season to show what they can do and they failed, I think Lukaku won't fail as bad as they have.

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Well then, since he's already here have some faith that he'll do well. He played less than 15 games so far so let's see how well he can be when he's fully fit.

Morata and Werner got a full season to show what they can do and they failed, I think Lukaku won't fail as bad as they have.

My opinion on Lukaku isn't based on 15 games, it's based on a decades worth of sample size.

It's not just Lukaku, the players behind him need to do more in attack also. You can't win the league with defenders topping the scoring and assist charts.

The Lukaku we want to be seeing:

The one we actually get to see:

3 hours ago, Argo said:

My opinion on Lukaku isn't based on 15 games, it's based on a decades worth of sample size.

In that case, meaning if he turns out to be worse than Eto'o the board and Tuchel will take that hit more than Lukaku, after all Lukaku would be able to say that he somehow managed to score goals everywhere else but here.

So we would need then Pulisic to become a goal machine but he's never really fully fit, CHO is still young and inconsistent, Werner isn't capable and Havertz is naturally more of a classic number 10 than a false 9 that scores loads so Tuchel's plan to win the league with Rudiger, Chilwell and James going forward seems very one-dimensional and my own experience tells me that we won't be able to make a run of 10 matches won in a row while fully relying on our defenders to do the most heavy lifting.

15 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

The Lukaku we want to be seeing:

The one we actually get to see:

Still better than this!

Big problem for him at the moment is his mobility or lack of it. How he moved on Saturday he shouldn’t have been in the squad. 
 

No where near anything if it came in the air or across the floor, got to be on his toes and not on his heels.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

In that case, meaning if he turns out to be worse than Eto'o the board and Tuchel will take that hit more than Lukaku, after all Lukaku would be able to say that he somehow managed to score goals everywhere else but here.

So we would need then Pulisic to become a goal machine but he's never really fully fit, CHO is still young and inconsistent, Werner isn't capable and Havertz is naturally more of a classic number 10 than a false 9 that scores loads so Tuchel's plan to win the league with Rudiger, Chilwell and James going forward seems very one-dimensional and my own experience tells me that we won't be able to make a run of 10 matches won in a row while fully relying on our defenders to do the most heavy lifting.

Then we should have waited until a suitable goalscoring option who suited the system became available. We have enough quality (both on the pitch and in the dugout) to at worst get comfortable top four while we waited. And would you know, just like magic Adeyemi and possibly Chiesa will be available next summer but (like with Aguero and Falcao in 2011) we'll probably pass because it's too soon after a recent financial commitment in that area.

The thing is I do think Rom will end up with around 20 goals if he played a full season, the problem is when he plays we are weaker defensively (due to his non existent pressing) and in general play. We go from hoping we can take one of many chances to hoping we can take one of few and Edou keeps it out at the other end. The idea of a poacher to finish what we create sounds great in theory, but in reality you lose a man from the intergrete build up and the press.

20 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Still better than this!

Even the magical powers of blue socks couldn’t help Morata…

1 hour ago, dansubrosa said:

Still better than this!

The fact we're resorting to taking comfort on him being better than a flop is a worrying sign in itself.