Timo has underwhelmed me a bit. But in fairness to the lad he runs his socks off, pulls the oppositions defence all over the place and really stretches play. So even if he doesn't score he usually is a good player to have on the pitch.

Havertz I think is pure quality, so much raw talent. Bit inconsistent, but in a few years time he will be our best player I think.

Does anyone see any comparisons of Havertz with Oscar?  I was so annoyed when Mourinho chose Oscar over Mata, blatant work rate over ability.  For me Oscar was like one decent game in seven.  I think Havertz is better than Oscar but I see similarities in work rate, flashes of skill, and numbers not being great. Both came as the next big thing....

to answer the question, I like both but feel Havertz has delivered more than Werner.  However, I do feel TT rotates the front three too much and therefore no rhythm or understanding so feel this has a bearing on the numbers...

On 07/01/2022 at 05:36, Gol15 said:

Havertz is still only 22 years old, I think his ceiling is probably close to the highest in our squad given that he's a young intelligent player. So in terms of potential he's up there with CHO and Pulisic because he has great technique and reads the game well. Some of the simple things he does go unnoticed but he's a player that will most likely make the correct split second decision at any given moment and that's a player any coach would love to have.

He's underwhelming right now I get it, but things haven't been exactly easy. When it comes to scoring goals he has the quality to be a real threat but he can also miss a clear cut chance, plenty of room for improvement there. I think he's capable of having a bit more than 10 goals in the PL in the future, though I don't see him being a regular scorer that would get 15+ goals but it's a plus that he's not afraid of the big matches, he can become really impactful and deliver in the big games.

Interesting opening phrase @Gol15. You correctly accept that his young age will mean we won’t fully know his potential for another 3/4 years. Yet in another thread don’t give Rice the same leeway, both are the same age. Both have played at an early age for their respective countries, both are very much work in progress. 

21 hours ago, azpi28 said:

 

based on this you could conclude that Werner creates more chances and is less involved on the ball than Havertz. Havertz however doesn't do as well in making the final decision/pass, but he carries the ball well and is involved in the attacking play a bit more than Werner. 

Looks like charts from the Open University from the 80's npxG+xA is that a chemical formula ?😆

17 minutes ago, bluehaze said:

Looks like charts from the Open University from the 80's npxG+xA is that a chemical formula ?😆

It’s short for non penalty expected goals + expected assists 😋

37 minutes ago, azpi28 said:

It’s short for non penalty expected goals + expected assists 😋

Jesus christ on a bike, this stats thing is utterly ridiculous now.

Do you have any stats showing how often Werner has to do his laces up compared to Havertz. Or how often they spit, how often they scratch their ass.

Edited January 8, 20224 yr by dkw

46 minutes ago, charierre said:

Interesting opening phrase @Gol15. You correctly accept that his young age will mean we won’t fully know his potential for another 3/4 years. Yet in another thread don’t give Rice the same leeway, both are the same age. Both have played at an early age for their respective countries, both are very much work in progress. 

It's a totally different discussion and they don't really play the same positions but if you honestly believe that Rice is right now, as we speak the best midfielder in the whole PL then I can only disagree with that.

100m for a work in progress is an interesting way of seeing it, Havertz is by all means one of the best youth players that German football has produced in the recent years and as an attacking player that potential is worth more but even so he wasn't worth 100m like Rice. Who was the DM that was signed for 100m, was it Pogba? He didn't exactly win titles for Man United.

5 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

It's a totally different discussion and they don't really play the same positions but if you honestly believe that Rice is right now, as we speak the best midfielder in the whole PL then I can only disagree with that.

100m for a work in progress is an interesting way of seeing it, Havertz is by all means one of the best youth players that German football has produced in the recent years and as an attacking player that potential is worth more but even so he wasn't worth 100m like Rice. Who was the DM that was signed for 100m, was it Pogba? He didn't exactly win titles for Man United.

Don't get too hung up on a price quoted in a newspaper or website. The price really means zilch other than for some reason we fans decide that one player is worth this and another isn't. Too much playing computer games, these figures are sums that the majority of us will never see or be involved in business deals at that amount. As for the two players they both have played a lot of first-team football and will mature their games as they approach peak age. Defensive nous is a lot harder to teach than attacking skill. Both players will go on to have fine careers, though there are so many variables as to whether they will achieve this.

At what point have I said that Rice is the best midfielder...that is reserved for N'Golo by a country mile. I will say again he is in development, a young prospect as is Kai.

16 minutes ago, charierre said:

Don't get too hung up on a price quoted in a newspaper or website. The price really means zilch other than for some reason we fans decide that one player is worth this and another isn't.

It doesn't mean nothing, especially not if they flop. Not only because we have to keep giving them chances (unless a club let's us off the hook by giving us our money back ala Morata) but it's sets a precedence, if we sign Rice for £100m this summer and want Bellingham the next then good luck pulling that off for less than £150m.

If Torres was anything from free to £20m we'd have been able to ditch him when he actually deserved it (the first possible transfer window) but because of the price tag and wages we had to keep trying to make it work for another 3 years.

Another example is United and Maguire, if his price was reasonable he would be a mere squad player by now if he was still there atall, but because he's a big investment they've had to not only stick by him but move mountains to help him out (low block, two DM's infront, two defensive fullbacks, Varane to partner him etc).

11 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Hmm surprised no one heard this when reading the title:

53 minutes ago, dkw said:

Jesus christ on a bike, this stats thing is utterly ridiculous now.

Do you have any stats showing how often Werner has to do his laces up compared to Havertz. Or how often they spit, how often they scratch their ass.

i'm not a stats merchant either, just thought it was some sort of contribution to the discussion. I only looked up the stats initially to sh*t on United fans who claim Ronaldo does defend. I was trying to make the argument that none of the united players would start in a combined 11 of the top 3. I was only looking at the "Pressures" stat.

1 hour ago, dkw said:

Jesus christ on a bike, this stats thing is utterly ridiculous now.

Do you have any stats showing how often Werner has to do his laces up compared to Havertz. Or how often they spit, how often they scratch their ass.

What you on about dkw? To judge a player you have to apply the mathematical model to solve Fermat's last theorem. You shouldn't be wasting your time watching how they play.

3 minutes ago, loz said:

What you on about dkw? To judge a player you have to apply the mathematical model to solve Fermat's last theorem. You shouldn't be wasting your time watching how they play.

Last theorem or little theorem, there's an important distinction that could mean Havertz is slightly better at applying his sock tape than Werner or vice versa.

7 minutes ago, azpi28 said:

i'm not a stats merchant either, just thought it was some sort of contribution to the discussion. I only looked up the stats initially to sh*t on United fans who claim Ronaldo does defend. I was trying to make the argument that none of the united players would start in a combined 11 of the top 3. I was only looking at the "Pressures" stat.

Ha ha, no problem, I wasn't aiming a shot at you specifically. I just generally hate the overuse of stats to prove/disprove opinions in football 

57 minutes ago, dkw said:

Ha ha, no problem, I wasn't aiming a shot at you specifically. I just generally hate the overuse of stats to prove/disprove opinions in football 

or you could be like Raymond Domenech, former france national coach who based his selection on astrological signs

 

Edited January 8, 20224 yr by azpi28

1 hour ago, azpi28 said:

or you could be like Raymond Domenech, former france national coach who based his selection on astrological signs

 

Yeah I remember that, the nutjob.

2 hours ago, Munkworth said:

7 hours ago, charierre said:

Don't get too hung up on a price quoted in a newspaper or website. The price really means zilch other than for some reason we fans decide that one player is worth this and another isn't. Too much playing computer games, these figures are sums that the majority of us will never see or be involved in business deals at that amount. As for the two players they both have played a lot of first-team football and will mature their games as they approach peak age. Defensive nous is a lot harder to teach than attacking skill. Both players will go on to have fine careers, though there are so many variables as to whether they will achieve this.

At what point have I said that Rice is the best midfielder...that is reserved for N'Golo by a country mile. I will say again he is in development, a young prospect as is Kai.

If you're asking me to forget about the price tag, in that case I'm not against Tuchel signing Rice. With that said I believe that offensive skills and attacking is still more valuable than defending.

Werner. I’m still trying to work out what Havertz brings to the team when he plays, every game he starts I’m excited to see what this £70m player is going to do and virtually every game he’s played since he arrived I’ve been disappointed.

54 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Werner. I’m still trying to work out what Havertz brings to the team when he plays, every game he starts I’m excited to see what this £70m player is going to do and virtually every game he’s played since he arrived I’ve been disappointed.

I bet I can guess one game you were happy with him though… 

Havertz is getting into the team as a 9, but many think he is better as a 10. Werner was bought as a 9 but is getting into the team as an 8. 
 

i wonder if we shouldn’t ask which are the best combo of Werner/havertz Werner/lukaku or havertz/lukaku. 

I have opinions but I’ve come to learn that Tuchel has way  different and better understanding than me. No surprise there. 

for me I like Werner lukaku together but I also want to see cho putting in the crosses because I think he is one that can give lukaku constant aerial supply. 

44 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

I bet I can guess one game you were happy with him though… 

Goal vs Southampton obviously mehehehfhfee

Havertz is so overrated. 

1 minute ago, KonaKai Blue said:

Havertz is so overrated. 

If this thread was on BlueMoon, you´d get banned for trolling. City trying to win the Champions League for a decade, bringing in Pep, spending a billion dollars, and people here are like: I wonder whether it will ever work out for Havertz or Werner, they are underwhelming etc....

IT ALREADY WORKED OUT. THEY WON THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE. They started nearly all knockout games, including the final. I mean what else is there to make these transfer work out? There is nothing bigger than the Champions League. That´s the biggest title in club football. This is a football club. You expect them to wingman you into a threesome with some supermodels?