Yes this was a pre-season game but the lack of understanding in the team is clear. There is no attacking cohesion. I mean that is two games now where I have watched and thought "what is our philosophy". Arsenal had a clear game plan yesterday and dominated us on all angles. It looked yesterday that we just sent out a team with 11 players and told to compete, rather than a gameplan. Pre-season or not, we should not be struggling to beat the likes of Charlotte FC. Arsenal beat Orlando 3-1, who are a better team than Charlotte. 

This may end up being a blessing in disguise for Tuchel to work on much needed tactics on the training ground, but yesterday was so worrying. Not our best team but many players out there are PL standard players who should be doing a lot better. 

we needed a shock to the system

31 minutes ago, azpi28 said:

he needs to get rid off the players who don't want to be here and let them train on their own

segregate the players we are going to use from the players we want to get rid off for the next 2 weeks 

mmmm, well if they knew they were actually leaving is one thing and while you can segregate them for training, you can't stop them talking to each other and that's when the poison starts to spread, especially if one of the players segregated is best mates of one that isn't.  

19 minutes ago, azpi28 said:

we obviously didn't give a sh*t about pre season, which is a bit concerning

Arsenal are always good when there is no pressure 

we played 6 finals since arsenal played their last final, so this Florida Cup final was a big deal for them and we couldn't match their motivation & intensity

They should have a 'Chelsea' trophy...they only beat us in Finals, non sensical games and when we hand them 3 points in the league to get them kickstarted...

The only way to salvage something from this tour and prevent it from being a complete waste of time is to take Pulisics passport off him and leave him in Orlando.

We also really whould be stripping Dave of the captaincy.  Having a captain that wants to leave is a terrible situation for the squad and sends the wrong message to everyone else.

Give it Silva or Jorginho.

Edited July 24, 20223 yr by HazardousChoice

5 minutes ago, HazardousChoice said:

The only way to salvage something from this tour and prevent it from being a complete waste of time is to take Pulisics passport off him and leave him in Orlando.

We also really whould be stripping Dave of the captaincy.  Having a captain that wants to leave is a terrible situation for the squad and sends the wrong message to everyone else.

Give it Silva or Jorginho.

What's up with the intense hatred for Pulisic. I admit he didn't do much yesterday, but to continually gloss over inept performances like that of Havertz, Werner, CHO, Ziyech and even Sterling who hasn't done a thing this preseason shows a truly myopic and naive recognition of the game. No blame for Tuchel? His system? The sh*tty midfield that can't penetrate to save their lives. Your continuous blame of one player, when it is obviously a system that is broke, is droll and tired.

42 minutes ago, Argo said:

We lost 4 in a row in 2010, then the real stuff starts, first six games won with a 22-2 GD.

And there's also this example from further afield.

Ok, let me rephrase.  I would suggest that there is a higher chance of starting the season badly with a poor pre-season.  I want you to be right but I'm not getting that feeling.  This feels like Mourinho, season 3, 2nd time, and Conte season 2.  I recall in those seasons we were poor in the Community Shield too, all.under cooked when the season started, and before you mention it, I know we lost the Community Shield in 2010 too.....

just stands to reason that if you have good results in pre-season you're more likely to start the season better.  It's not just fitness or not all the 1st team.playing that contributes s to a poor pre-seaon.  There's always something else going on......

 

 

2 hours ago, rtwelch said:

That is just ridiculous. Rudiger for one. Chilwell improved. Mount has improved. Kante's decision making. Trev has improved? Kepa stopped being calamity Jane? There's some off the top of my head. 

No rudiger didn’t improve.. he deployed a system where we had 8 defensive players and it hid weaknesses.. chilwell was already playing decent and was good under TT but no one is saying  he is suddenly saying he is the premier league’s best..

lol did you just say Kante has improved?? If you read across most people think he is nowhere near his best..

Kepa has improved so much that we are flooded with offers… seriously if you need to think about Kepa as an example .. when havertz, CHO, pulisic, werner, lukaku, ziyech all have failed them you are clutching at straws 

15 minutes ago, USATim said:

What's up with the intense hatred for Pulisic. I admit he didn't do much yesterday, but to continually gloss over inept performances like that of Havertz, Werner, CHO, Ziyech and even Sterling who hasn't done a thing this preseason shows a truly myopic and naive recognition of the game. No blame for Tuchel? His system? The sh*tty midfield that can't penetrate to save their lives. Your continuous blame of one player, when it is obviously a system that is broke, is droll and tired.

I don't hate Pulisic or any of our players

I do however think Pulisic is by far the worst of our attackers and importantly the only one that has never looked good at any point in his career.

I can understand persisting with Havertz because he showed such a high level at Leverkusen or hoping Ziyech and Werner could translate the quality they showed in their previous leagues to the Premier league even if I don't expect them to come good.

Pulisic has literally never had a good season in his career.   He's played 7 seasons.

Expecting a player that has been poor for his entire 7 season career to be an asset in his 8th season is an absurd level of delusion way beyond optimism.

As Tuchel said the players haven't changed why would the problems be gone? 

Not one manager or system in 2 different leagues has managed to get more than 4/5 good performances a season out of Pulisic.   

Blaming Tuchel when he inherited such dross is madness.

Edited July 24, 20223 yr by HazardousChoice

5 minutes ago, HazardousChoice said:

I don't hate Pulisic or any of our players

I do however think Pulisic is by far the worst of our attackers and importantly the only one that has never looked good at any point in his career.

I can understand persisting with Havertz because he showed such a high level at Leverkusen or hoping Ziyech and Werner could translate the quality they showed in their previous leagues to the Premier league even if I don't expect them to come good.

Pulisic has literally never had a good season in his career.   He's played 7 seasons.

Expecting a player that has been poor for his entire 7 season career to be an asset in his 8th season is an absurd level of delusion way beyond optimism.

As Tuchel said the players haven't changed why would the problems be gone? 

Not one manager or system in 2 different leagues has managed to get more than 4/5 good performances a season out of Pulisic.   

Blaming Tuchel when he inherited such dross is madness.

If that is your logic, then you should be more pissed at the German Wunderkinds, who tore it up in other leagues, only to do nothing here. You see, to me, it doesn't matter what an attacking player did in the past - that is irrelevant.  All that matters is are they playing well and scoring for Chelsea - and they are not. End of story. Even Sterling has looked pedestrian in this juggernaut of an offense. Werner was the worst player on the pitch yesterday, is a cancer of the field, yet he somehow avoids your vitriolic diatribes. Laughable.

1 minute ago, USATim said:

If that is your logic, then you should be more pissed at the German Wunderkinds, who tore it up in other leagues, only to do nothing here. You see, to me, it doesn't matter what an attacking player did in the past - that is irrelevant.  

That's very relevant when we're spending 58m and paying a ludicrous salary for a player.  It's even more relevant when you're criticising Tuchel for not getting the best out of players.

The fact that no manager has managed to get a decent set of performances out of Pulisic should tell you it isn't Tuchel that is the problem.

The talent just isnt there to work with.

Every attacking player scores hatfuls in the Bundesliga.  It's the most open league in Europe.   Every attacking player aside from Pulisic anyway.

I'm not absolving Werner of criticism.  I don't think he's good enough and should be moved on if possible however he was at least signed based on his ability and performances at Leipzig and not solely on his nationality and commerical hype.

Timo is also a far better player, can reliably stay fit and and works much harder on the pitch.  Both lack talent but only 1 lacks workrate.

And when you're one of the least talented players in the squad you better have a god damn high workrate.

12 minutes ago, HazardousChoice said:

That's very relevant when we're spending 58m and paying a ludicrous salary for a player.  It's even more relevant when you're criticising Tuchel for not getting the best out of players.

The fact that no manager has managed to get a decent set of performances out of Pulisic should tell you it isn't Tuchel that is the problem.

The talent just isnt there to work with.

Every attacking player scores hatfuls in the Bundesliga.  It's the most open league in Europe.   Every attacking player aside from Pulisic anyway.

I'm not absolving Werner of criticism.  I don't think he's good enough and should be moved on if possible however he was at least signed based on his ability and performances at Leipzig and not solely on his nationality and commerical hype.

Timo is also a far better player, can reliably stay fit and and works much harder on the pitch.  Both lack talent but only 1 lacks workrate.

And when you're one of the least talented players in the squad you better have a god damn high workrate.

Who has scored more important goals for Chelsea - Werner or Pulisic? 

28 minutes ago, HazardousChoice said:

That's very relevant when we're spending 58m and paying a ludicrous salary for a player.  It's even more relevant when you're criticising Tuchel for not getting the best out of players.

The fact that no manager has managed to get a decent set of performances out of Pulisic should tell you it isn't Tuchel that is the problem.

The talent just isnt there to work with.

Every attacking player scores hatfuls in the Bundesliga.  It's the most open league in Europe.   Every attacking player aside from Pulisic anyway.

I'm not absolving Werner of criticism.  I don't think he's good enough and should be moved on if possible however he was at least signed based on his ability and performances at Leipzig and not solely on his nationality and commerical hype.

Timo is also a far better player, can reliably stay fit and and works much harder on the pitch.  Both lack talent but only 1 lacks workrate.

And when you're one of the least talented players in the squad you better have a god damn high workrate.

Your silence is deafening. Simple question: of the two players, Werner or Pulisic, who has scored more goals in bigger games for Chelsea? Waiting patiently. 

15 minutes ago, USATim said:

Your silence is deafening. Simple question: of the two players, Werner or Pulisic, who has scored more goals in bigger games for Chelsea? Waiting patiently. 

You need to go outside mate.  I'm not glued to the forum. I'm happy to answer your question :)

Pulisic has scored more than Timo for us because he's played another season. 

Werner has scored 23 goals for us in 2 seasons.  Pulisic has scored 25 in 3.  Not the argument you want to make.  You don't want to mention big games either as Pulisic has missed chance after chance in big games.   Against Real in the CL this season,  the FA cup final against Liverpool.  A huge miss in the CL final when out through 1 vs 1 against City

Fun fact for you - In Timo's lowest goal scoring season for us he scored 11 goals (his lowest in 6 seasons) which is equal to the highest number of goals Pulisic has scored in any season in his career.

Edited July 24, 20223 yr by HazardousChoice

31 minutes ago, HazardousChoice said:

You need to go outside mate.  I'm not glued to the forum. I'm happy to answer your question 🙂

Pulisic has scored more than Timo for us because he's played another season. 

Werner has scored 23 goals for us in 2 seasons.  Pulisic has scored 25 in 3.  Not the argument you want to make.  You don't want to mention big games either as Pulisic has missed chance after chance in big games.   Against Real in the CL this season,  the FA cup final against Liverpool.  A huge miss in the CL final when out through 1 vs 1 against City

Fun fact for you - In Timo's lowest goal scoring season for us he scored 11 goals (his lowest in 6 seasons) which is equal to the highest number of goals Pulisic has scored in any season in his career.

Werner's lowest scoring season was last year - He had 9 goals, only 4 in PL play. He had what you claimed was his lowest scoring season the year before with 11.  Pulisic had 8 goals last year, 6 in PL action. Your facts, like your argument, are wrong. And Pulisic has scored in bigger, more important, games for Chelsea than Werner has. Period. Friendly wager that Pulisic outscores Werner this season.

Edited July 24, 20223 yr by USATim

Can we just agree that they are both sh*t?

1 minute ago, Zeta said:

Can we just agree that they are both sh*t?

We can agree that Tuchel's offensive philosophy is sh*t. 

16 minutes ago, USATim said:

Werner's lowest scoring season was last year - He had 9 goals, only 4 in PL play. He had what you claimed was his lowest scoring season the year before with 11.  Pulisic had 8 goals last year, 6 in PL action. Your facts, like your argument, are wrong. And Pulisic has scored in bigger, more important, games for Chelsea than Werner has. Period. Friendly wager that Pulisic outscores Werner this season.

I get anyone who actually rates Pulisic is ignoring reality usually in favour of patriotic bias but Werner had 12 goals last season and 11 this season so I'm not sure what you're missing.

I'm not even defending Timo I don't rate him highly and I think most can accept he isn't good enough and he hasn't scored enough goals for us.

But the idea of an Pulisic as a potentially a great player despite his entire club career being a testament to the opposite is absurd and I have no idea why his compatriots can't accept it.

He's a Hugo Rodellega or a Charles Nzogbia type talent but he's clearly not talented enough for a top club.

I'd take that bet, I'm optimistic we'll sell Pulisic and Werner this summer.

I could see Timo hitting big numbers back in Germany cause he's shown he can do it.

I don't see Pulisic being a starter at any club in a top 5 European league.

 

Edited July 24, 20223 yr by HazardousChoice

9 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Can we just agree that they are both sh*t?

I agree with that.

Neither are good enough for us.  I don't think anyone would actually argue Werner is.

or anyone outside of America would argue that Pulisic is.

1 hour ago, HazardousChoice said:

I agree with that.

Neither are good enough for us.  I don't think anyone would actually argue Werner is.

or anyone outside of America would argue that Pulisic is.

I don't think Pulisic is sh*t. I am not American. I think he has been largely inconsistent but has produced moments of quality for us too. So your wrong.

Was always going to be a challenging pre season- the license restrictions at end of last, then change in ownership, pink slip for Cech & Marina and new owner whose ego tells him he can pull the strings in the transfer market, a squad with at least 1/2 dozen on big wages that  need moving on now. The Perfect Storm.

We will struggle to get top 4 this season imo because our main rivals have strengthened and their preparation for 2 weeks time is progressing nicely compared to Chelsea’s so far. 
 

Need a few more well targeted players in - up top proper goalscorer, midfield playmaker, defenders and in turn a few more out the door. TT is having to be the chief cook & bottle washer because Boehly didn’t engage the necessary expertise in the market so that’s a factor too. How the season plays out is dependent on getting more good business done before the market closes next month.

7 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

The only way to salvage something from this tour and prevent it from being a complete waste of time is to take Pulisics passport off him and leave him in Orlando.

We also really whould be stripping Dave of the captaincy.  Having a captain that wants to leave is a terrible situation for the squad and sends the wrong message to everyone else.

Give it Silva or Jorginho.

Hazardous could you please write a short post where you say the following;

"It would be fantastic if Tottenham got relegated this season"

I know it's not likely to happen, (either you writing that or Tottenham getting relegated), but it would be great if you could do that for me. Because just once, just one time, I would really like you to post something I actually agreed with.

1 minute ago, just said:

Hazardous could you please write a short post where you say the following;

"It would be fantastic if Tottenham got relegated this season"

I know it's not likely to happen, (either you writing that or Tottenham getting relegated), but it would be great if you could do that for me. Because just once, just one time, I would really like you to post something I actually agreed with.

Since it is unlikely he does will you settle for me?

It would be fantastic if Tottenham got relegated this season.

7 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

I don't hate Pulisic or any of our players

I do however think Pulisic is by far the worst of our attackers and importantly the only one that has never looked good at any point in his career.

I can understand persisting with Havertz because he showed such a high level at Leverkusen or hoping Ziyech and Werner could translate the quality they showed in their previous leagues to the Premier league even if I don't expect them to come good.

Pulisic has literally never had a good season in his career.   He's played 7 seasons.

Expecting a player that has been poor for his entire 7 season career to be an asset in his 8th season is an absurd level of delusion way beyond optimism.

As Tuchel said the players haven't changed why would the problems be gone? 

Not one manager or system in 2 different leagues has managed to get more than 4/5 good performances a season out of Pulisic.   

Blaming Tuchel when he inherited such dross is madness.

harsh on pulisic I think , he was excellent in his first season here I thought. Honestly don’t think there’s much between him and havertz who’s a bit of a golden goose. Can’t really see how you could rate him below CHO, Ziyech or Werner who have barely strung 2 good back to back performances in a Chelsea shirt.

I knew we were on to a crap game last night when Reece's face was of thunder even before the barrage of goals!

It was like we didn't want to play at all! We looked completely in close season mode, where as Arsenal played like they were half way through a prem season fighting for the title!

It's also time to ship off Werner, I think even he knows now. He has some real pace, but forgets he needs the ball to go with him! Unlike previously, its at a time now where he can't even be compared to Torres in a blue shirt. Let him go, even if its just for his career going forward. The club has been screaming out for a Costa type player for years and without one, we won't be able to compete.