7 hours ago, OriginalS said:

Can he be judged next season in your eyes? Or is that another freebie for Potter as he and some supporters can use the "rebuild" buzzword to hide behind? Genuine question.

Or will for example 7th be good enough next season if we finish 9th this year as that would be progress?

 

Nope next year he has to be top 4 at the minimum infact I'll say even now his performance needs a review with whether he stays dependant on how we end the season performance wise.

But while we're on the game of playing if, buts and maybes would a UCL win this season give him atleast a year of good grace in your eyes regardless of what happens next season? I ask that because your main rebuttal to me pointing out Arteta's poor performances and Pulis esque football in his first season and a half at Arsenal was to mention his FA Cup win so on the same basis Potter should win your unconditional support for a year at the absolute minimum, no?

Edited March 26, 20233 yr by Argo

5 hours ago, evissy said:

The ceiling in this climate of Premier League and all the competitions Chelsea is in with Roman's short-termism is cup here, cup there and maybe a title once in 5 years. 

The ceiling in this climate for long-term planning is higher. We could see a double, treble even with the wealth and resources we have. 

In the latter version we just have to suffer more as fans. And as we can all see here in this forum many here are not accustomed to it nor willing to try.

This is a bit of an odd comment to make. We could also see relegation or languishing in the bottom half of the table. We hope, as fans, to see a demonstrable improvement for a longer sustained period but there are no guarantees.

As a minimum we should be expecting a return to the level that we have been at, which is top 4.

Also its not exactly a case of a cup here, a cup there as you mention above. Under Roman Chelsea were the most successful club side in english football over a sustained 20 year period. Not potential, no maybes, but fact.

1 hour ago, WhiteWall said:

Also its not exactly a case of a cup here, a cup there as you mention above. Under Roman Chelsea were the most successful club side in english football over a sustained 20 year period. Not potential, no maybes, but fact.

In the last 5 years it was a cup here, cup there (admittedly the big one in there).

As far as the league and consistently competing was concerned we seemed to hit a similar crossroads Wenger's Arsenal did, ie competitors with more modern ideas overtook us. The Lukaku and Luis Diaz signings for me summed up in a nutshell why we fell so far behind Liverpool, they sourced a perfect stylistic fit and a Mane replacement before Mane even left whereas we just looked at the top line assumed it would fall into place and didn't factor in how Lukaku was literally the worst fit imaginable for the football Tuchel had us playing upto that point.

I don't know for sure if the clearlake way will get us back challenging, but despite the short term pain this season I'm a lot more hopefull than I was a year and a bit ago, as soon as we signed Lukaku I gave up on us being anything more than a cup team again under Roman (and even that would have been a struggle given Lukaku's record in big games).

Edited March 26, 20233 yr by Argo

2 hours ago, evissy said:

Could be, could also be we have just right manager in place. What we know for certain is it is and will never be Tuchel or someone with similar track record as he does. That is not even debatable.

It will never be Tuchel because we sacked him and he went to Bayern. There is no way Tuchel would have had us 10th had he stayed on. If anything, it's almost impossible to argue that Potter could even come close to winning a title here, no matter how much time we give him. 

 

10th with Swansea in the Championship and 9th with Brighton after 3 years, on what planet is Potter going to win us a league here? It's just blind hope at this point

2 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

This is a bit of an odd comment to make. We could also see relegation or languishing in the bottom half of the table. We hope, as fans, to see a demonstrable improvement for a longer sustained period but there are no guarantees.

As a minimum we should be expecting a return to the level that we have been at, which is top 4.

Also its not exactly a case of a cup here, a cup there as you mention above. Under Roman Chelsea were the most successful club side in english football over a sustained 20 year period. Not potential, no maybes, but fact.

We don't see relegation, don't be foolish. If we invest in talent, invest in good management, invest for facilities we are expected to be at a certain level. Potter for me is good enough coach to guide us to somewhere better what it is now and he is just one component in this club. I am not saying he is going to bring us titles as we can't assess that right now. Our squad is so far from something that is ready to compete. 

We have been successful don't get me wrong.. i have witnessed it. But to be something like M City we need to build a base with someone. We have the means to build but not sure yet whether we have the brains for it. Not commenting just Potter but the whole club.

9 minutes ago, Drogba1 said:

Honestly crazy how quick the media turned on Conte, he's one point behind Ten Hag's United, who is supposedly doing a fantastic job there. Conte didn't get to  spend 220m on Lisandro, Antony and Casemiro either

On the contary, given how he behaves they've gone easy on him and that includes his time here aswell.

Many times I've watched a press conference or post match interview of his thinking why the hell aren't the journalists pointing out all his contradictions. For example when he was using resources as an excuse for being behind the two Manchester clubs the first thing I'd have asked is "Antonio if financial resources is the main reason why you are behind the Manchester clubs then why are you behind Liverpool and Spurs despite spending 5x more than the former and 2x more than the latter?" or when he's waving the white flag against a Chelsea team with Kepa, Saul, Sarr playing and no James, Chilwell, Kante, Silva, Mendy or Kova "why are you repeatedly claiming you can't compete with a Chelsea team that is objectively inferior to the one you had which you constantly criticised publicly all while you've got according to your words while at Chelsea your dream striker signing playing for you?".

So yeah considering the way he opens himself up I think he gets off very very lightly. And furthermore I don't think Potter has had it easy, he has been openly humiliated and been called the worst manager in our history at press conferences (whether or not that is true is irrelevant, he didn't deserve that thrown in his face) aswell as basically being called a robot repeatedly.

15 minutes ago, Argo said:

On the contary, given how he behaves they've gone easy on him and that includes his time here aswell.

Many times I've watched a press conference or post match interview of his thinking why the hell aren't the journalists pointing out all his contradictions. For example when he was using resources as an excuse for being behind the two Manchester clubs the first thing I'd have asked is "Antonio if financial resources is the main reason why you are behind the Manchester clubs then why are you behind Liverpool and Spurs despite spending 5x more than the former and 2x more than the latter?" or when he's waving the white flag against a Chelsea team with Kepa, Saul, Sarr playing and no James, Chilwell, Kante, Silva, Mendy or Kova "why are you repeatedly claiming you can't compete with a Chelsea team that is objectively inferior to the one you had which you constantly criticised publicly all while you've got according to your words while at Chelsea your dream striker signing playing for you?".

So yeah considering the way he opens himself up I think he gets off very very lightly. And furthermore I don't think Potter has had it easy, he has been openly humiliated and been called the worst manager in our history at press conferences (whether or not that is true is irrelevant, he didn't deserve that thrown in his face) aswell as basically being called a robot repeatedly.

 

I'm sure he has contradicted himself but he really hasn't done a bad job. His squad was worse than what Pochettino had too, no Kyle Walker, no Alderweireld and Vertonghen, no prime Lloris, no prime Eriksen. Just Harry Kane and a badly out of form Son. 

17 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

No - My cards have been on the table for a long time, and I have been consistent in my messages. Life isn't binary good/bad - there are always shades of grey.

For clarity:

1) As much as I love and supported Frank, we were right to sack him. Despite him getting us top 4 with the "youth", we were in a downward spiral and were not progressing in the football we played.

2) As much as I liked and supported Tuchel, we were also right to sack him. We were playing awful awful football. Stagnant, slow, and negative. Not progressive at all. He was talking about the need for 'precision' to fix it....when we needed a sledgehammer. Added to the stinky football, he was also not showing that he wanted to work in the new structure. Added to that, there was also some unsavory stuff allegedly behind the scenes.

3) As much as I am on the fence about Potter, and have concerns about his pedigree, this is clearly a long-term rebuild. There will be ups and downs along the way. There is no quick fix - and I have seen enough in flashes to continue to be positive about our long-term trajectory. He has however been underperforming and we are right to want more. He is too passive for a start.......but that doesn't change the particular circumstances in which he has come in, and muppets on here comparing him to the circs of others like the FSW, are simply moronic.

So - all the time morons on here come on and whinge and shout about  wanting "RESULTS NOW!!!" I will not "bore off' (as you so eloquently suggested). If you take off your blinkers and climb down off your high horse you will see that this is a long-term rebuild that was badly needed - so to judge conclusively (either way I should add) on the space of 6 months' work, is once again, simply moronic.

 

 

 

I agree long term plan is important and manager need time. Just look at Klopp or Arteta. But what really take time is not implementing their idea, you can see this very quickly. What take a while is improving the squad. Klopp and Arteta has to replace their entire squad. Surely that can't be the case for us. 

Personally despite all the risks I'd have Conte back again in a heart beat. As Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead". Sure I'd like a stable club and long term trustworthy (ie consistently delivers) manager. I thought we had that with Tuchel.  I really think Tuchel should have been given more time but that plane long ago took off. Conte wasn't really backed in the transfer market but his track record is probably better than Mourinho's at least in the league. Mourinho was great in cups, as was tuchel. 

Conte not only has team ideas but from what I have read is great at getting the players on the right diets and getting them fit. I'd rather have a premier league next year and sack conte the following season as compared to taking two more years of what we are currently getting. But I think in the right environment conte could stay for 3-5 years. All but a very few managers have done all they can do after 5 years. If you accept that, then Potter is already a significant way into his likely tenure. Is he a Ferguson or a Wenger? I mean how optimistic do you want to be?

5 hours ago, Drogba1 said:

Honestly crazy how quick the media turned on Conte, he's one point behind Ten Hag's United, who is supposedly doing a fantastic job there. Conte didn't get to  spend 220m on Lisandro, Antony and Casemiro either

He got given a lot of money to spend this summer. £60m on Richarlison, £25m on Bissouma, £20m on Spence. All three were used sparingly as subs as well. Also bought Romero for what £42m. Pedro Porro was bought this January for £40m too. I agree with parts of what you are saying but also Spurs are out all of the cup competitions once again and it is more the fact that he scapegoated his players after the Southampon downfall, why a lot of people have turned on him.

2 hours ago, ozboy said:

Personally despite all the risks I'd have Conte back again in a heart beat. As Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead". Sure I'd like a stable club and long term trustworthy (ie consistently delivers) manager. I thought we had that with Tuchel.  I really think Tuchel should have been given more time but that plane long ago took off. Conte wasn't really backed in the transfer market but his track record is probably better than Mourinho's at least in the league. Mourinho was great in cups, as was tuchel. 

Conte not only has team ideas but from what I have read is great at getting the players on the right diets and getting them fit. I'd rather have a premier league next year and sack conte the following season as compared to taking two more years of what we are currently getting. But I think in the right environment conte could stay for 3-5 years. All but a very few managers have done all they can do after 5 years. If you accept that, then Potter is already a significant way into his likely tenure. Is he a Ferguson or a Wenger? I mean how optimistic do you want to be?

Conte had 3 years with Juventus and effectively turned the Serie A into a one team league, running away with the title 3 years in a row, and getting 102 points in one season. They finished 7th before he joined. 

 

His cup record is definitely not great, but his league record is absolutely spectacular.

Edited March 27, 20233 yr by Drogba1

5 hours ago, ozboy said:

Personally despite all the risks I'd have Conte back again in a heart beat. As Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead". Sure I'd like a stable club and long term trustworthy (ie consistently delivers) manager. I thought we had that with Tuchel.  I really think Tuchel should have been given more time but that plane long ago took off. Conte wasn't really backed in the transfer market but his track record is probably better than Mourinho's at least in the league. Mourinho was great in cups, as was tuchel. 

Conte not only has team ideas but from what I have read is great at getting the players on the right diets and getting them fit. I'd rather have a premier league next year and sack conte the following season as compared to taking two more years of what we are currently getting. But I think in the right environment conte could stay for 3-5 years. All but a very few managers have done all they can do after 5 years. If you accept that, then Potter is already a significant way into his likely tenure. Is he a Ferguson or a Wenger? I mean how optimistic do you want to be?

I don't. Look at his history as a manager. The stints in different clubs all seem to be short ones. There is a reason why that is. Conte is one those managers that get itchy. Always looks for another challenge. And the biggest thing they bring is quick solutions and quick results. We witnessed that with Conte. 

We need to evolve as a club from that I think. 

 

7 minutes ago, evissy said:

I don't. Look at his history as a manager. The stints in different clubs all seem to be short ones. There is a reason why that is. Conte is one those managers that get itchy. Always looks for another challenge. And the biggest thing they bring is quick solutions and quick results. We witnessed that with Conte. 

We need to evolve as a club from that I think. 

 

I would like to agree with that but truthfully  it is statistically unlikely. Name me some managers across England, Italy, Germany and France that have won the league and stayed with the club for than a few years after? Due to the money being so good there are a few in England, Ferguson, Wenger and now Guardiola and klopp. Yet few will be surprised if this is Guardiola's last contract with Man C and he didn't last that long at Barca or Bayern. outside of England I can't think of many. Maybe I am less familiar with those leagues. If there aren't many you need to ask yourself why that is? Are all these clubs stupid to regularly change managers?  The answer to that is almost certainly no, they aren't stupid, they act in what they perceive to be their best interest. Some are undoubtedly stupid and make poor decisions but on average you have to say that their reasoning will be rational. After all it costs money and they have all seen what happens at other clubs.

So you can dream of the ideal of one manager staying for a decade and building a culture of success but as I say statistically its most unlikely. And in the case of Potter its off to a very poor start. I could go on about the reasons why clubs need to change managers after a while but I'm sure you know that stuff as well as I do.
 

22 minutes ago, ozboy said:

I would like to agree with that but truthfully  it is statistically unlikely. Name me some managers across England, Italy, Germany and France that have won the league and stayed with the club for than a few years after? Due to the money being so good there are a few in England, Ferguson, Wenger and now Guardiola and klopp. Yet few will be surprised if this is Guardiola's last contract with Man C and he didn't last that long at Barca or Bayern. outside of England I can't think of many. Maybe I am less familiar with those leagues. If there aren't many you need to ask yourself why that is? Are all these clubs stupid to regularly change managers?  The answer to that is almost certainly no, they aren't stupid, they act in what they perceive to be their best interest. Some are undoubtedly stupid and make poor decisions but on average you have to say that their reasoning will be rational. After all it costs money and they have all seen what happens at other clubs.

So you can dream of the ideal of one manager staying for a decade and building a culture of success but as I say statistically its most unlikely. And in the case of Potter its off to a very poor start. I could go on about the reasons why clubs need to change managers after a while but I'm sure you know that stuff as well as I do.
 

I am thinking we should look at Liverpool and City and how they are backing the coach. It might be this long term coach thing is a myth and irrelevant even. I just don't think the way Roman saw the coach role is something we should replicate. We need to find ways to build something more sustainable I think.

13 hours ago, Argo said:

But while we're on the game of playing if, buts and maybes would a UCL win this season give him atleast a year of good grace in your eyes

Yes, if Potter pulls out the CL me and @nonotnowjim will be throwing hands to determine who's the real MVP of defending Potter.

May as well stop moaning now, looks like he’s here to stay: 

 

19 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

May as well stop moaning now, looks like he’s here to stay: 

 

While it's very clear he's staying for the foreseeable that could be somewhat worked around simply by putting him on gardening leave and just paying him until he finds a new job.

53 minutes ago, Argo said:

While it's very clear he's staying for the foreseeable that could be somewhat worked around simply by putting him on gardening leave and just paying him until he finds a new job.

Todds joker card is the long term deals.

1 hour ago, Argo said:

While it's very clear he's staying for the foreseeable that could be somewhat worked around simply by putting him on gardening leave and just paying him until he finds a new job.

Or appointing him as Strasbourg manager after Todd buys them.

24 minutes ago, coco said:

Todds joker card is the long term deals.

Do you mean to say Potter is in want of a very big garden? 

Edited March 27, 20233 yr by Valerie

Yeah Boehly managed to find a loophole with regards to contract amortization so I wouldn't worry about him finding one with getting rid of Potter. (should he finally have a tipping point).

Not sure Naagelsman is the answer though. 

1 hour ago, Argo said:

While it's very clear he's staying for the foreseeable that could be somewhat worked around simply by putting him on gardening leave and just paying him until he finds a new job.

Maybe change Frankie's bar name...

 

51 minutes ago, Valerie said:

Do you mean to say Potter is in want of a very big garden? 

He does resemble a garden gnome.

4 minutes ago, coco said:

He does resemble a garden gnome.

I don't know, put a Chelsea badge on that blue shirt and I reckon that may well resemble our own @coco...

6 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

May as well stop moaning now, looks like he’s here to stay: 

 

At least the board are finally being honest about the situation now 👍