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David Luiz back at Chelsea

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I try not to get too involved with the rights and wrongs of Luiz starting for us or if his attributes outweighs his deficiencies. However I thought against Bournemouth he was woeful. It’s just a matter of time before he costs us, really he should have done yesterday if Bournemouth had more quality. 

Please Mr Sarri can we have a defender play along Rudi, someone who can concentrate for the full match. 

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9 minutes ago, goose said:

I try not to get too involved with the rights and wrongs of Luiz starting for us or if his attributes outweighs his deficiencies. However I thought against Bournemouth he was woeful. It’s just a matter of time before he costs us, really he should have done yesterday if Bournemouth had more quality. 

Please Mr Sarri can we have a defender play along Rudi, someone who can concentrate for the full match. 

Christensen was doing nicely last season, only made a couple of gaping errors, but was mainly solid. I don't know if he fits Sarris criteria, but he is a better defender than Luiz right now.

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Luiz is the type of defender you play in a back 4 when your objective is just to outscore the other team, and not when your objective is to be defensively sound (unless playing with 3 CB'S or two holding mid etc). 

That will work against the majority of our opponents, but when we face a team that can score as easily or easier than us and can defend securely....That's when things get ugly quick with Luiz not devoting his attention and energy to his defending.  There easily could/should have been 3 - 6 more goals scored against us as a result of his errors this season ghats just begun. Fate has been very kind to him (& us) and our position on the table could be very different had even half of those gone in.

The biggest difference between Luiz and Christensen is about a decade.  He has a lot of time to improve and that were already debating him vs Luiz says to me the investment in giving Christensen more play time is a good one. 

Luiz vs teams works for now, but Christensen needs minutes to develop his game still and is the overall  better defender.  If he needs extra sessions practicing passing and having the ball under pressure than so be it.  He doesn't need to be at Hazard's level, just enough to get the ball securely to get a teammate or clear of danger.

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Problem is, I don't think he even brings that much to the team going forward. Look at JT up until his legs went when he couldn't get up and down the pitch as he did in his prime.  Consistently excellent in defence, calm on the ball scored goals and always a threat at corners etc. Ashley Cole was as consistently good as JT and bombed up and the pitch all match long but defending was always his top priority. Luiz thinks he's way better than he actually is. 

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7 hours ago, Dixon said:

Problem is, I don't think he even brings that much to the team going forward.

I mean, just watch a game and see how much he brings with his passing and balls over the top.

7 hours ago, Dixon said:

Luiz thinks he's way better than he actually is. 

I must have missed a couple of interviews 

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On 02/09/2018 at 01:55, Oli said:

He was actually appalling today and had bournemouth scored 2 goals we could of easily been looking at an undeserved defeat solely down to him. Its mistake after mistake and we are lucky it didnt cost us last week or today. Its not like christensen is vastly inferior to him in a passing and attacking sense..but defensively he is just miles better. Him or ampadu need to be starting games.

Its a shame really because the rest of the 11 are spot on, its just him.

But we didn't.  Way too much woulda, coulda, shoulda in this forum.  Not just you, just a representative post.  And also it highlights the gross exaggeration we all use.   He wasn't "actually appalling today".  And saying Christensen is "just miles better" is just silly, over-reaction.

13 hours ago, Barry Bridges said:

There easily could/should have been 3 - 6 more goals scored against us as a result of his errors

 

13 hours ago, Barry Bridges said:

our position on the table could be very different had even half of those gone in.

But there weren't.  And it isn't because they didn't.

If my Aunty had bollocks she'd have told the Daily Star reporter to  f**k off and stick his pencil up his arse.

Anyway, we can easily blame Luiz for all the goals Bournemouth scored.  Except for the ones that were Willian's fault, obviously.  Oh, and the ones that were directly down to Morata.  And the ones that were clearly Mikel and Kalou's fault.

BUT THEY DIDN'T SCORE!.

Sorry for shouting.

Edited by yorkleyblue

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Hey all,

I'm new here and I'm curious what is the general sentiment surrounding our defence and CB pair?

While I tend to agree with some supporters that Rudiger has improved, I'm still not sure if he pairs well with David Luiz. Also, I think Christensen is probably still our best defensive CB. I'd like to see Luiz + Christensen play as I don't think Rudiger + Luiz is a good longterm solution. I'm also a big Zouma fan and just don't understand why we would let him go on loan yet again. It seems like everyone respects and values this guys talent except us.

Regarding the fullbacks. Alonso has been good and has surprised me regarding how well he's adapted to Sarri's system. I thought he would lack the pace and that we'd be forced to start Palmieri, but he's fit in quite well so far. Regarding Azpi, I love the guy, but I'm afraid his lack of pace might hurt him in this system. TBD.

I won't be surprised if we dip into the market for a top-notch centre back and fullback by next summer. We shall see.

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4 hours ago, Stim said:

I mean, just watch a game and see how much he brings with his passing and balls over the top.

I must have missed a couple of interviews 

How many of those "balls over the top" have been actual assists? We are giving a place to a defender who makes crass errors in return for a few passes. While we have dominated possession in matches so far this season, we've struggled to create good chances up front and relied on the opposition missing good chances, several of which were entirely down to Luiz's non defending. Along with Morata, he's a clear weak link in the team at the moment. 

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Luiz offers something the other defenders don't, with his range of passing. However, his defensive work in a 2-man CB pairing leaves a lot to be desired. I can certainly see why he's started the season first choice, but I think as the season progresses, Sarri will identify his defensive frailties and bring Christensen in alongside Rudiger.

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8 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Luiz offers something the other defenders don't, with his range of passing. However, his defensive work in a 2-man CB pairing leaves a lot to be desired. I can certainly see why he's started the season first choice, but I think as the season progresses, Sarri will identify his defensive frailties and bring Christensen in alongside Rudiger.

That's what I was referring to in my first post above. But the question is what pair of those 3 is best? Luiz+Christensen or Rudiger+Christensen. Or will we eventually dip into the market for a world class CB?

I already don't think Luiz and Rudiger together is the answer. This will only become more obvious as the season progresses.

Edited by Lightspeed

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39 minutes ago, Dixon said:

How many of those "balls over the top" have been actual assists? We are giving a place to a defender who makes crass errors in return for a few passes. While we have dominated possession in matches so far this season, we've struggled to create good chances up front and relied on the opposition missing good chances, several of which were entirely down to Luiz's non defending. Along with Morata, he's a clear weak link in the team at the moment. 

Every pass doesnt have to be an assist you know. 

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11 minutes ago, dkw said:

Every pass doesnt have to be an assist you know. 

Of course! I'm not one for going overboard on stats because some of them are pretty meaningless. However, there are some pretty simple ones that can be proved to justify a player being in or out of a team as a starting player. Alonso has his weak points as a defender but there is actual clear evidence to prove his shortcomings in defence are evened out by what he gives going forward.  The stats are there for him! The support for Luiz its just this vague stuff of him bringing the ball out and balls over the top.

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1 hour ago, Lightspeed said:

Hey all,

I'm new here and I'm curious what is the general sentiment surrounding our defence and CB pair?

While I tend to agree with some supporters that Rudiger has improved, I'm still not sure if he pairs well with David Luiz. Also, I think Christensen is probably still our best defensive CB. I'd like to see Luiz + Christensen play as I don't think Rudiger + Luiz is a good longterm solution. I'm also a big Zouma fan and just don't understand why we would let him go on loan yet again. It seems like everyone respects and values this guys talent except us.

Regarding the fullbacks. Alonso has been good and has surprised me regarding how well he's adapted to Sarri's system. I thought he would lack the pace and that we'd be forced to start Palmieri, but he's fit in quite well so far. Regarding Azpi, I love the guy, but I'm afraid his lack of pace might hurt him in this system. TBD.

I won't be surprised if we dip into the market for a top-notch centre back and fullback by next summer. We shall see.

If you're wanting to get rid of one of either Rudiger or Luiz i'd drop Luiz in a heart beat. Rudiger is our best CB and should be untouchable atm.

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56 minutes ago, Lightspeed said:

Hey all,

I'm new here and I'm curious what is the general sentiment surrounding our defence and CB pair?

While I tend to agree with some supporters that Rudiger has improved, I'm still not sure if he pairs well with David Luiz. Also, I think Christensen is probably still our best defensive CB. I'd like to see Luiz + Christensen play as I don't think Rudiger + Luiz is a good longterm solution. I'm also a big Zouma fan and just don't understand why we would let him go on loan yet again. It seems like everyone respects and values this guys talent except us.

Regarding the fullbacks. Alonso has been good and has surprised me regarding how well he's adapted to Sarri's system. I thought he would lack the pace and that we'd be forced to start Palmieri, but he's fit in quite well so far. Regarding Azpi, I love the guy, but I'm afraid his lack of pace might hurt him in this system. TBD.

I won't be surprised if we dip into the market for a top-notch centre back and fullback by next summer. We shall see.

There is no way Rudiger is getting dropped, he's the best CB at the club and one of our best players. He's not just a good passer of the ball, he's an excellent defender too. I don't understand this love for Zouma, he got relegated with Stoke last season and he looks awkward on the ball, and being good on the ball is a must under Sarri. Just look at Luiz, he isn't in the team for his defensive abilities, it's his ability on the ball. I do really worry about Luiz defensively though, so many defensive errors are surely going to cost us eventually.

I'm not worried about Azpilicueta though, if anything, he was showing signs that he was starting to readjust to the fullback role against Bournemouth. He got forward well and defended well too.

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There's so much I would like to say to those who want Christensen over Luiz, but I'm way too busy at the moment. But in short, we will lose so much more having Christensen in the team over Luiz. Luiz is far more resilient to pressing than Christensen (very evident last season). And contrary to popular belief, Christensen's passing leaves a lot to be desired. Christensen is still young and is definitely a quality CB, but for how Sarri wants to play, he's not quite there yet.

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22 hours ago, Dixon said:

The support for Luiz its just this vague stuff of him bringing the ball out and balls over the top.

It's not vague though. Of all our defenders, Luiz is the one most capable of picking the ball up deep in our half and picking out an accurate long range pass to start off an attack. He's done it for years, and its one of the reasons he's always so valuable. He doesn't just hoof it, he can drop a ball in front of a midfielder or attacker from 50-60 yards, and that gives us something a lot of teams don't have. He's also an extremely classy defender capable of stuff most other CB's simply don't have the pure ability for. The only, and it really is the only real flaw with Luiz is his concentration which leads to those momentary lapses we all know so well. Obviously we need to be factoring those into whether or not he should be playing (and the Bournemouth game had me wanting him to be dropped for the next game) but let's not fool ourselves into believing David Luiz isn't an extremely good CB. On his day he's world class.

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5 minutes ago, Kentonio said:

It's not vague though. Of all our defenders, Luiz is the one most capable of picking the ball up deep in our half and picking out an accurate long range pass to start off an attack. He's done it for years, and its one of the reasons he's always so valuable. He doesn't just hoof it, he can drop a ball in front of a midfielder or attacker from 50-60 yards, and that gives us something a lot of teams don't have. He's also an extremely classy defender capable of stuff most other CB's simply don't have the pure ability for. The only, and it really is the only real flaw with Luiz is his concentration which leads to those momentary lapses we all know so well. Obviously we need to be factoring those into whether or not he should be playing (and the Bournemouth game had me wanting him to be dropped for the next game) but let's not fool ourselves into believing David Luiz isn't an extremely good CB. On his day he's world class.

Such as?

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3 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Such as?

Watch a David Luiz career highlights video. Some of his defending is absolutely sublime. It tends to get overlooked because he’s scored some cracking goals and of course because of his screw ups, but peak Luiz defending is just a joy to watch.

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I am on the fence when it comes to the debate of whether Christensen should be starting over Luiz and vice versa however the case in favour of Luiz is we look so much better playing out of the back this season than we ever did last & luiz is one of the main reasons for that. He has had his lapses defensively but so far it has not cost us points & the only way I can see Christensen making his way into the team is when he is given his opportunities in Europa or the League cup he needs to make the most of them, that will give Sarri something to think about however for the moment I can't see Sarri changing a winning formula.

In an ideal world we should be rotating between Luiz and Christensen, against lesser team who are looking to park the bus and where we are likely to dominate possession have Luiz & against some of the more technical teams who will test us defensively maybe have Christensen ahead of Luiz. There is a reason for having a strong squad and the answer could be rotation between the both of them, luckily for us we've got strong competition for places all over the starting 11 Giroud/Morata, Willian/Pedro & RLC/Barkley/Kova so it looks like we are in for a very exciting season ahead. 

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Paul Merson (says he's a Chelsea fan) can see we are better this season but thinks the defending of Luiz (and Alonso) will cost us the chance of winning the title. He pinpointed that goal he allowed at Newcastle as the kind of bad error he makes.

We have been very lucky his errors have not cost us 4 points already in just 4 games. How many more mistakes should we tolerate? Now if only we had Gomez from Liverpool. He is exactly the player we need!

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1 hour ago, Kentonio said:

Watch a David Luiz career highlights video. Some of his defending is absolutely sublime. It tends to get overlooked because he’s scored some cracking goals and of course because of his screw ups, but peak Luiz defending is just a joy to watch.

Hmm, struggle to agree with this. He might have made the occasional great tackle, but on a whole he isn't a great defender and his lapses in judgement far outweigh his positive contributions. 

I could find a Torres Chelsea highlight video and convince people he was a top finisher.

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1 hour ago, Dixon said:

Paul Merson (says he's a Chelsea fan) can see we are better this season but thinks the defending of Luiz (and Alonso) will cost us the chance of winning the title. He pinpointed that goal he allowed at Newcastle as the kind of bad error he makes.

We have been very lucky his errors have not cost us 4 points already in just 4 games. How many more mistakes should we tolerate? Now if only we had Gomez from Liverpool. He is exactly the player we need!

hmmmmm.  Very suspect.

Did you used to be a member here under a different name?  One that also implied a ling-time CFC fan?

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2 hours ago, Dixon said:

Paul Merson (says he's a Chelsea fan) can see we are better this season but thinks the defending of Luiz (and Alonso) will cost us the chance of winning the title. He pinpointed that goal he allowed at Newcastle as the kind of bad error he makes.

We have been very lucky his errors have not cost us 4 points already in just 4 games. How many more mistakes should we tolerate? Now if only we had Gomez from Liverpool. He is exactly the player we need!

LOL

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1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

LOL

A young central defender with real pace, reads the game well and very comfortable on the ball under pressure. What's lol about that?

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1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

LOL

 

2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

hmmmmm.  Very suspect.

Did you used to be a member here under a different name?  One that also implied a ling-time CFC fan?

Nope! You have my word on that!

But I do go back to Dixon, Speedie, Nevin and co.

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