9 hours ago, JM7 said:

I think it’s becoming clear that Tuchel is falling to get the best out of the attacking players. Whether that’s through the system, personality clashes, confidence…whatever, he’s not getting anything out of them.
 

Unfortunately I don’t believe that Kai, Werner, Ziyech, Lukaku, Mount and Pulisic are ALL this bad. 

Clearly that is going to make or break this season. We are the only team that doesn't have anyone in attack that is scoring goals which is simply not viable.

Now we lost Rudiger that was going forward and winning penalties his replacement Koulibaly already scored a goal, 3 PL goals scored in 3 matches is pretty poor considering who we played and the scorers being Koulibaly, James and Jorginho is a big red flag.

People keep saying that Tuchel is to blame for the attacking system, but we were missing chance after chance since Conte was at Chelsea. Conte had the fortune of Costa scoring 20+ goals in the title winning season, which is something Tuchel hasn't had. It's obvious that a 20+ goal a season striker would help immensely in challenging for the league title. In hindsight, maybe Tammy should have been given a chance, but it is what it is. 

Edited August 25, 20223 yr by enigma

I asked already didn’t get an answer so I will try again who are people choice to replace him if he goes?

14 minutes ago, enigma said:

People keep saying that Tuchel is to blame for the attacking system, but we were missing chance after chance since Conte was at Chelsea. Conte had the fortune of Costa scoring 20+ goals in the title winning season, which is something Tuchel hasn't had. It's obvious that a 20+ goal a season striker would help immensely in challenging for the league title. In hindsight, maybe Tammy should have been given a chance, but it is what it is. 

Obviously he is to be blamed for our poor attack. He was happy to sign Lukaku for almost 100m, he has signed Sterling that after 3 matches has 1 assist only.

11 hours ago, thebluekid said:

Coco, his football is boring, tedious and nap worthy. The constant excuses made for it after the Champions League win is unashamedly consistent!

Is it that bad though? Genuinely feel that it's quite overstated how "boring" we are.

Alright we didn't consistently play great or even good football from December until the end of the season last campaign. Still played a few cracking games though. But more importantly there was a lot of very valid reasons why our performances suffered for the second half of last season. Whether you rate Tuchel or don't rate him I don't think you can argue against that so it needs to be taken into consideration.

My take on this is that we in general looked fantastic from Tuchel joined the club in January until Chilwell went down v Juventus on the 23rd of November last year. Played great, fast and fluent football and for the first time in our history we genuinely looked like the best team in Europe and ultimately won the biggest prize as we all know.

Still extremely early this season of course so time will tell how we look. But if we can keep everyone fit and bring in two or three players that we are rather desperate for I believe Tuchel will have us looking like one of the better teams in Europe again. Both in terms of style and in terms of results. In terms of performance then Tottenham was very promising and we looked great and while everything went to sh*t against Leeds I certainly wouldn't describe it as tedious and boring. Simply two pressing machines that went toe to toe with eachother and Leeds came out of top due to individual mistakes from us. Both in terms of poor finishing from our side and errors defensively.

I suppose my question is: Why do we judge his football on a period where we encountered so much turbulence and not consider how we looked under him during a more settled time? Both in terms of players available and outside events influencing the entire club.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 20223 yr by Sindre

On 09/08/2022 at 17:00, Chris Gundleton said:

I like TT and with him in charge I am confident that we will always be competitive if not pretty on the eye.  Real Madrid away last year, we almost pulled it off, under Frank we would have been smashed.

My issue, and I do think this is about not taking risks on the orders of TT, is when the wing back doesn't put a quick ball in.  Cucu did it once on Saturday and Sterling almost scored but the amount of time James stopped and passed back drives me mad.  I hate to say it, but on the evidence of TT at Chelsea I would think twice about signing if I was a striker.  Drogba would have been up in arms in the current set up with no quick ball.

I also mentioned under the Gallagher thread, that if TT managed the Mourinho squad, first time around, he wouldn't play Frank.  He'd have Makalele and Essien.  Frank would have had to make do with playing out of position, in a wide position, or not playing at all (although as another poster mentioned, I would like to think that TT sets the team up based on the squad he has and would have played 4/3/3).

I agree with a lot of this, thought when Frank waa here he wanted to make changes and bring-in players like Zaha, Rice, Tarkowski and think playing four at the bank again that would have been exciting though think the board were not convinced. Of course under Frank we might have ended up like West Ham mkII under Moyes, we just don't know.

Gallagher will be an interesting puzzle for TT, we have a good player the question is does he fit TT's model?

 

2 hours ago, enigma said:

People keep saying that Tuchel is to blame for the attacking system, but we were missing chance after chance since Conte was at Chelsea. Conte had the fortune of Costa scoring 20+ goals in the title winning season, which is something Tuchel hasn't had. It's obvious that a 20+ goal a season striker would help immensely in challenging for the league title. In hindsight, maybe Tammy should have been given a chance, but it is what it is. 

Fabregas was key IMO to our PL win. Having Matic & Kante behind him freed up our attacking players. Still don’t think a 20+ player will solve the issue, we had that last season. 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Obviously he is to be blamed for our poor attack. He was happy to sign Lukaku for almost 100m, he has signed Sterling that after 3 matches has 1 assist only.

I'm not convinced that Lukaku was even his signing. Why would they have apparently fallen out if Tuchel genuinely wanted him? Makes no sense. Lukaku just seemed like trouble early on, then coming out with that interview. He didn't help himself whatsoever. 

9 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Fabregas was key IMO to our PL win. Having Matic & Kante behind him freed up our attacking players. Still don’t think a 20+ player will solve the issue, we had that last season. 

Him and Costa definitely were influential in that season, definitely. Kante coming in too really was great. Problem is, Kante is no longer in his prime and getting injured more regularly.

We have no Fabregas type player or a 20 goal a season striker. Tuchel wasn't here when Havertz and Werner were signed. Tuchel is only now trying to build the team to his mould. 

1 hour ago, enigma said:

I'm not convinced that Lukaku was even his signing. Why would they have apparently fallen out if Tuchel genuinely wanted him? Makes no sense. Lukaku just seemed like trouble early on, then coming out with that interview. He didn't help himself whatsoever. 

He was going for Håland first but he was happy with Lukaku, he said he would bring us an extra tactical option.

2 hours ago, ducavis said:

Fabregas was key IMO to our PL win. Having Matic & Kante behind him freed up our attacking players. Still don’t think a 20+ player will solve the issue, we had that last season. 

Well we clearly didn't given no one in our team managed to score 20+ goals last season.

If you're referring to Fat Rom he didn't manage to score 20 goals in his last season at United.

Infact in his 8 seasons in the Premier league he scored 20+ league goals exactly once.

Harry Kane or Sergio Aguero he is not.

11 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I thought ruben played well against leeds, so not sure playing ruben as rwb was a problem, the same as playing Reece as rcb. 

I am not sure rwb is Reece best position. He is so good everywhere it is almost irrelevant. 

 

I thought Ruben was terrible myself.

Refusing to strike the ball when running onto a 1 vs 1 from about 8 yards out is one of the worst passages of play I've genuinely ever seen on a football pitch.

Reece Buries that, any other fullback I can think of at least takes the shot.

Ruben always wants 3 touches too many.

Ever since Costa left we’ve lacked a proper goal scorer, no one since then has been what i think we need. The fat f**k was never going to work, the other lot are not in that bracket, same as sterling as good at what he does. Literally wasted hundreds of millions trying to solve the problem. Surely with our world wide scouting there is a f**king  goal scorer out there somewhere? I hear a lot of people saying it’s not the problem, that we need to sort out the midfield, I agree with that as well but for f**k sake the untold goal opportunities pathetically  wasted by our so called ‘attack’ is really incredible Werner alone must have been 20a season, the fat £100m c**t another example, throw in another half a dozen and it runs into hundreds. We then spend a lot on Sterling, same again, good at what he does but not a prolific goal machine. So frustrating. 

16 hours ago, thebluekid said:

Coco, his football is boring, tedious and nap worthy. The constant excuses made for it after the Champions League win is unashamedly consistent!

It can be, and it has been for a while though, but do you think this is how he wants it to be? The type of performance vs Tottenham, our Champions League winning run and those first few months before injuries kicked in last season is surely enough evidence of how Tuchel wants us to play. Pay attention to Tuchel on the touchline, you can clearly see him constantly telling the players to wake up and improve the tempo. Some players in this squad seem incapable of doing it for more than a few games, they also respond terribly to set backs. Maybe this squad just isn't mentally equiped to peform at a high level for a full season.

6 hours ago, El regreso said:

I asked already didn’t get an answer so I will try again who are people choice to replace him if he goes?

Potter

23 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

It can be, and it has been for a while though, but do you think this is how he wants it to be? The type of performance vs Tottenham, our Champions League winning run and those first few months before injuries kicked in last season is surely enough evidence of how Tuchel wants us to play. Pay attention to Tuchel on the touchline, you can clearly see him constantly telling the players to wake up and improve the tempo. Some players in this squad seem incapable of doing it for more than a few games, they also respond terribly to set backs. Maybe this squad just isn't mentally equiped to peform at a high level for a full season.

How do they get mentally equipped? 

I'm pretty sure that's where the manager's man management skills should shine through and it happens from the training ground.  Not match day. 

It's one thing to have low scoring strikers, it's another to have consistently most of your goals coming from the wing back and defensive players.   

It paints a picture, we all don't want to accept it but, it is what it is.  The attacking element of our game has fallen to the wayside and the truth of the matter is that if attacking players constantly make bad decisions or finish poorly,  it is because that aspect of their game isn't getting the required attention in training. 

4 hours ago, bisright1 said:

Potter

I like him too bisright. He does seem to have the happy knack of spotting talent on a tight budget. And his teams always play good football. A shame Gilmour didn't get to work under him last season. Think that would have worked out playing next to Bissouma. He comes across as a cool dude too.

That said, I do want us to stick with TT. See how he does this season. He's earned that I feel. Though like others, I do feel he needs to be more adaptable with his selections and formations.

Edited August 25, 20223 yr by just

9 minutes ago, just said:

I like him too bisright. He does seem to have the happy knack of spotting talent on a tight budget. And his teams always play good football. A shame Gilmour didn't get to work under him last season. Think that would have worked out playing next to Bissouma. He comes across as a cool dude too.

That said, I do want us to stick with TT. See how he does this season. He's earned that I feel. Though like others, I do feel he needs to be more adaptable with his selections and formations.

Tuchels got til the world cup for me. If the team is outside the top 6 then and still failing to click offensively, then I'd have to fall on the side of switching it up. 

I don't mind his systems, his plan. But it's got to show fruit by the winter break. 

And also, that's when we'd need to get potter. Because otherwise I can see england getting him...as I don't hold much hope for Southgate. 

The other benefit of potter is that his teams play a similar style to tuchel, it's not a drastic change. My only concern would be with him that Brighton have also been a bit concerning with their offensive plah - but he has a better argument for his players not being good enough than tuchel. 

Edited August 25, 20223 yr by bisright1

2 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Tuchels got til the world cup for me. If the team is outside the top 6 then and still failing to click offensively, then I'd have to fall on the side of switching it up. 

I don't mind his systems, his plan. But it's got to show fruit by the winter break. 

And also, that's when we'd need to get potter. Because otherwise I can see england getting him...as I don't hold much hope for Southgate. 

Potter for us ? You must be joking ? He would need 2-3 seasons to get us going, can you imagine some of our fans after 18 months and were in mid table ? Look what happened to Frank.

33 minutes ago, coco said:

Potter for us ? You must be joking ? He would need 2-3 seasons to get us going, can you imagine some of our fans after 18 months and were in mid table ? Look what happened to Frank.

Why? Understand it would be a huge step up in terms of expectations Coco. But he looks like the kind of personality who could possibly handle it. He might, MIGHT, give us all a different perspective in terms of the players he goes for. To me his ethos seems to be team before individuals. That would probably mean "thank you very much and goodbye" for some of our current crop but perhaps that's a good thing. We wouldn't be batting our eyelids at the likes of Ronaldo for sure. Potter's side's usually play with great tempo and good technical ability. Don't see what's not to like myself.

Edited August 25, 20223 yr by just

If we sack Tuchel surely we have to hire Klopp.

He's also met the sackable offence threshold of having a poor first 3 games to the season so I expect he'll be avaliable at the same time we sack Tuchel.

1 minute ago, just said:

Why? Understand it would be a huge step up in terms of expectations Coco. But he looks like the kind of personality who could possibly handle it. He might, MIGHT, give us all a different perspective in terms of the players he goes for. To me his ethos seems to be team before individuals. That would probably mean "thank you very much and goodbye" for some of our current crop but perhaps that's a good thing. His side's usually play with great tempo and good technical ability. Don't see what's not to like myself.

I said why, he wouldn't be afforded the time by our fan base, they wont accept mid table for a season or so, if he failed to get top four in his first two seasons the fans would turn on him, even Frank didn't get much time. 

Fans are already moaning about Tuchels management and talking about his replacement, despite everything he's done for us in such a short time, so imagine how long Potter would get if we were not inside top 4, even for one season.

27 minutes ago, coco said:

I said why, he wouldn't be afforded the time by our fan base, they wont accept mid table for a season or so, if he failed to get top four in his first two seasons the fans would turn on him, even Frank didn't get much time. 

Fans are already moaning about Tuchels management and talking about his replacement, despite everything he's done for us in such a short time, so imagine how long Potter would get if we were not inside top 4, even for one season.

Yep, possibly. One thing though Coco. The fans 100% did not turn on Lampard. The overwhelming majority were happy to give him all the he time he needed. Roman, however, in keeping with his style, was not. And if he were still in charge Tuchel would be a very, very worried man at the moment.

Like I said though, IMO, Tuchel deserves more time. But there are potential alternatives out there and Graham Potter is currently one of them.

3 minutes ago, just said:

And if he were still in charge Tuchel would be a very, very worried man at the moment.

My guess is he would've been long gone by now and started the season with a new manager!

5 minutes ago, Mod said:

My guess is he would've been long gone by now and started the season with a new manager!

Yup two cup final losses would have done that with Roman imo.