1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Strongly disagree.

Colwill gets a permanent move and stability to develop in ideal conditions. We get money now and if Colwill develops as we all hope we can sign what's hopefully a top class CB at that point for a net sum of about £20 million.

More top spin than a Rafa Nadal fore-hand.

5 minutes ago, just said:

That hasn't aged well.

Another "big up" for the Tuchel does yoof narative.

If the manager and player between them decided it's best for Colwill to leave so he can develop in optimal conditions i'm all for that. In the end it may be better for his development then being fifth or sixth choice here with us and with a buy-back clause I wouldn't have a problem with it.

The buy-back clause should suggest that he's someone the manager wants to play for Chelsea in the future and i'm happy with that. Not to mention we've brought in a lot of extremely talented youngsters this window under Boehly and Tuchel's guidance. Slonina is 18 and will join up with the team in January. Chukwuemeka at 18  will apparently be a part of the squad this season as well.

And I don't think there is a "narrative" that he does youth or whatever you want to call it. If there is a narrative its that he somehow hates youth and doesn't want anything to do with them despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary.

 

15 minutes ago, just said:

That hasn't aged well.

Another "big up" for the Tuchel does yoof narative.

Since his arrival on January 26 of 2021, Thomas Tuchel had fielded 14 Cobham graduates in competitive matches, with 6 being given over 1000 minutes. Those being: Mason (5,967'), Reece (4,781'), AC (4,008'), CHO (2,842'), Chalobah (2,305'), and RLC (2,250'). With 1 of those 6 being let go on a free.

Klopp, who has been at Liverpool for 5 years and 4 months longer, also has given 6 Melwood graduates over 1000 minutes. With 3 sent out on loan or sold by Klopp.

Guardiola, who has been at city for 4 years and 6 months longer, has given 3 academy graduates over 1000 minutes. With 2 being sold or let go on a free.

Arteta, who has been at Arsenal for 1 year and 1 month longer, has given 7 Hale end graduates over 1000 minutes. With 4 being sent out on loan or sold by Arteta.

Current European and LaLiga champions, Real Madrid, only have 3 academy products who racked up more than 1000 minutes last season with all 3 of them being over 30 years of age.

European powerhouse, Bayern Munich, only had 2 academy products rack up over 1000 minutes last season with one of them being Thomas muller.

PSG, who have arguably the best academy in Europe, only had 1 academy product rack up over 1000 minutes last season.

Barcelona's famous La Masia has only produced 5 players who have played over 1000s minutes in LaLiga for the club since 2020

What was that last bit? Why can't you just admit TT is no more open to a young player walking in to our first team squad than Jose was?

But then, why should he be? He needs results week in week put. Whose to say that philosophy is wrong? We have, ALLEGEDLY, the best academy production line in Europe. But that doesn't mean we have to play them though. Just make a profit on them.

I think our young talent are realising that and choosing to move on early rather than wait for a real opportunity that probably, very probably, won't come. I for one, don't blame them. I think it shows ambition and belief in their own abilities. 

Edited August 3, 20223 yr by just

6 minutes ago, just said:

What was that last bit? Why can't you just admit TT is no more open to a young player walking in to our first team squad than Jose was?

But then, why should he be? He needs results week in week put. Whose to say that philosophy is wrong? We have, ALLEGEDLY, the best academy production line in Europe. But that doesn't mean we have to play them though. Just make a profit on them.

I think our young talent are realising that and choosing to move on early rather than wait for a real opportunity that probably, very probably, won't come. I for one, don't blame them. I think it shows ambition and belief in their own abilities. 

Exactly, and which club with pressure to win has played as many or more youth products than we have in the last few years? I'm in my 30's and of the top of my head can only think of 2 (Pep's Barca and the CO92).

For the record i'm a bit annoyed Colwill is leaving but it doesn't make him a youth hating maniac anymore than it did Lampard when he sold his new teammate early 2020.

Colwill is going to be a top level CB, and just cause we have a buyback, does not mean he has to come back.

If Real or City are after him in a couple of years he may we prefer to go there, and may well remember rather than developing him like we did Mason and Reece, we let him go.

He has looked every bit as good as Mount and James did in their first season loans imo

1 minute ago, axman2526 said:

Colwill is going to be a top level CB, and just cause we have a buyback, does not mean he has to come back.

If Real or City are after him in a couple of years he may we prefer to go there, and may well remember rather than developing him like we did Mason and Reece, we let him go.

He has looked every bit as good as Mount and James did in their first season loans imo

Will he even have a say if we activate the clause? I remember Morata didn't have a choice but to return to Real when they activated his from Juve.

23 minutes ago, Argo said:

Exactly, and which club with pressure to win has played as many or more youth products than we have in the last few years? I'm in my 30's and of the top of my head can only think of 2 (Pep's Barca and the CO92).

For the record i'm a bit annoyed Colwill is leaving but it doesn't make him a youth hating maniac anymore than it did Lampard when he sold his new teammate early 2020.

But you are obsessed, absolutely obsessed with internet stats here. I'm sure, 100% sure, if I had the time and could be arsed I could find contradictory figures Argo. Please, please forget stats and, think about what we see. Look at what we have seen with TT's pre-season player selections in regards to known quantities, older players, deadwood, and young talent. 

You can't fob it off with Man U does this, Barca does that. We have, or are supposed to have, the best academy and youth production line in Europe, if not the World. Something we have invested in and built up for a decade. Why aren't more of them breaking through? Why aren't more of them getting a chance? TT could really make a big difference if he felt the same.

 

 

Edited August 3, 20223 yr by just

9 minutes ago, Argo said:

Will he even have a say if we activate the clause? I remember Morata didn't have a choice but to return to Real when they activated his from Juve.

Not sure if the deals are structured as they were then. I mean with today's HR stuff is it inforceable to make him come back if he really did not want to? Would be a PR nightmare.

13 minutes ago, Argo said:

Will he even have a say if we activate the clause? I remember Morata didn't have a choice but to return to Real when they activated his from Juve.

I really don't know. There are probably different types of buy back clauses. If a player is being forced to return to a club, then surely that player will be guaranteed a certain wage.

The frustrating thing for me is not loaning these young players for experience and get them back without paying for them.

Then we buy players for 40 70  up to 98 million and loan them out sometimes helping with wages run contracts down and leave for nothing!

Too much to ask for now but I would really like it if Levi turns them down and stays and fights for his place.

The competition  is not that strong really as Silva cannot play every game, Trev is injury prone, Koulibaly new too the league and Dave slower than father time.

If he stays I reckon he would force his way in and never look back, like Reece and Mase did 3 years ago.

Honestly, was optimistic Colwill would make a James level impression on the first team, and he is not really getting the chance.  Would be disappointed to see him leave - not sure we see him back and something to be said for developing our own players.

for all defending this deal we are getting absolutely mugged. Lets say even if we buy back Colwill for 45M and sell him for 20M thats a 25M markup. So if we are essentially paying 77 mil for cucurella plus giving a player for free on loan.

There are a lot of EPL clubs we could have loaned Colwill too and made some loan fee too. For the life of me i cant understand how this club operates in the transfer market. For 77 mil there are a lot of LBs out there who are better than Cucurella.

TT is more a coach but i am not confident of his transfer market dealings so it worries me when we are going after so many of his signings. His record at PSG was abysmal - he spent 40m for Thilo (Very similar to CC) , 50m for Icardi, 40 mil for Abdou Diallo, 30 mil for leandro parades, 30 mil for Gueye and none of them have had more than 20/25 appearances for PSG .. heck he even spent money Sarabia and Keylor Navas

It is dangerous for the club to trust TT on transfers his record is abysmal not a single signing apart from Mbappe was a success in 3 years at PSG.

7 hours ago, Sindre said:

If the manager and player between them decided it's best for Colwill to leave so he can develop in optimal conditions i'm all for that. In the end it may be better for his development then being fifth or sixth choice here with us and with a buy-back clause I wouldn't have a problem with it.

The buy-back clause should suggest that he's someone the manager wants to play for Chelsea in the future and i'm happy with that. Not to mention we've brought in a lot of extremely talented youngsters this window under Boehly and Tuchel's guidance. Slonina is 18 and will join up with the team in January. Chukwuemeka at 18  will apparently be a part of the squad this season as well.

And I don't think there is a "narrative" that he does youth or whatever you want to call it. If there is a narrative its that he somehow hates youth and doesn't want anything to do with them despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary.

 

Tuchel is apparently open to having youth in his squad, just not necessarily our own youth 

8 hours ago, just said:

Why can't you just admit TT is no more open to a young player walking in to our first team squad than Jose was?

Because I don't agree with that at all.

Chalobah wouldn't have had a chance if Mourinho was our manager and neither would Loftus Cheek with the situation he was in last summer. Two players that were discarded by almost everyone and yet Tuchel gave them over 60 games between them last season. Including finals and Champions League knockout games. Should he not get an any credit for that? In my opinion he clearly should while you are on the topic of youth.

You mentioned pre-season and yet Conor Gallagher have played as much as any and will clearly be a part of our team this year. He got every opportunity to force himself into the starting XI for Everton even but due to not doing that well that seems a bit unlikely for the time being, But he's another that will get chances to impress this season in my opinion.

We've rejected a big bid for Broja because the manager wants to keep him and he and Colwill always featured in pre-season as well when they weren't out with injuries.

So no, I don't see your point at all just.

 

On the youth policy: Dortmund and Leipzig have a clear policy for using youth players. They are either buying 15-18 year old players with a good prospect of playing in the Bundesliga, give them gametime and let them nurture into moneymaking names like Pulisic, Haaland, Nkunku and so on. Sell them on with a hefty profit. Rinse and repeat. 

They are clubs that are able to do that. We can't. We have to fight on every front and win every single game in the toughest league. So basically a youth policy like that is impossible for us. Liverpool and City use youth here and there in the cup games. Nobody cares if they do or not as they are winning everything there is to win. As was Chelsea under Jose 2004-. 

Our youth setup is excellent and we are producing some of the best talent, we can sell them on or loan them as we are doing, the absolute gems we are keeping and nurturing. Levi Colwill is looking like that. I think it is a good deal for us to sell him to Brighton and put in a buyback clause. I don't see any negatives in that.

If we are not slotting him immediately in the side we are better letting him grow somewhere else. 

Tuchel has been given more a say in the transfermarket and he has a new boss. It is a new situation for him. I am sure Todd has said what is expected of him and he is probably leaning towards safer solutions, which means experienced players. They could give you the results easier, faster than relieing on youth. 

We are Chelsea and not Dortmund or Leipzig and we are seen to be fighting with Liverpool rather than making profit with Broja for example. This is why Colwill's case for me is secondary in terms of clubs goals.

 

 

2 hours ago, Valerie said:

Tuchel is apparently open to having youth in his squad, just not necessarily our own youth 

Nathan Aké? 🤔

3 hours ago, Jangz said:

TT is more a coach but i am not confident of his transfer market dealings so it worries me when we are going after so many of his signings. His record at PSG was abysmal - he spent 40m for Thilo (Very similar to CC) , 50m for Icardi, 40 mil for Abdou Diallo, 30 mil for leandro parades, 30 mil for Gueye and none of them have had more than 20/25 appearances for PSG .. heck he even spent money Sarabia and Keylor Navas

It is dangerous for the club to trust TT on transfers his record is abysmal not a single signing apart from Mbappe was a success in 3 years at PSG.

https://sempreinter.com/2020/09/27/psg-coach-thomas-tuchel-did-not-want-to-sign-mauro-icardi-from-inter-french-media-claim/

PSG Coach Thomas Tuchel Didn’t Want Mauro Icardi Signed From Inter French Media Claim

According to my information a certain Leonardo was responsible at PSG for the transfers. Do you have other informations that Tuchel instead of Leonardo was the sports director in Paris ?

If this deal is for Cucurella to come in at LCB it makes sense, we've lost two experienced CB's in AC and Rudiger and only brough Koulibaly in. Also likely to lose Alonso and Azpi too, therefore going into the season with the very raw Colwill would have been a massive risk, especially with Silva another year older. Deal makes sense to me if we had to do it to get Cucu over the line, at least we have a buy back.

10 hours ago, Argo said:

Since his arrival on January 26 of 2021, Thomas Tuchel had fielded 14 Cobham graduates in competitive matches, with 6 being given over 1000 minutes. Those being: Mason (5,967'), Reece (4,781'), AC (4,008'), CHO (2,842'), Chalobah (2,305'), and RLC (2,250'). With 1 of those 6 being let go on a free.

 

For the sake of argument, I’d argue here that Mason and Reece were benched in Tuchel’s first game, only to realise that the more experienced options were not on par, they were already first team players before he arrived;  Christensen was more or less established first team player; Hudson-Odoi had been getting minutes under Sarri towards the end of the season, but I give it to you though Tuchel is not playing him much; Chalobah I have no issues with you stating that Tuchel has brought him up to the first team and played him; now, with RLC you’re taking the Micky, he’s no youth any more and has seen many managers. 

9 hours ago, Argo said:

Will he even have a say if we activate the clause? I remember Morata didn't have a choice but to return to Real when they activated his from Juve.

Brighton will have a say. Why would they sell for 40m when they don't have to. They didn't sell Cucu for that price.

And Colwill is probably going to be grateful for the opportunity. We've given him what he wants. That will mean a lot. 

1 minute ago, bisright1 said:

Brighton will have a say. Why would they sell for 40m when they don't have to. They didn't sell Cucu for that price.

And Colwill is probably going to be grateful for the opportunity. We've given him what he wants. That will mean a lot. 

No, he means that if Colwill ends up at Brighton as expected with a buyback clause which we activate it, will Colwill have a say in it or not. That's what he means. Brighton will have to accept the offer if we pay the release clause but what @Argo is asking is whether the player has a say if he wants to stay or it is an obligation to move. I think it is the latter but not 100% sure.

14 minutes ago, STATS said:

No, he means that if Colwill ends up at Brighton as expected with a buyback clause which we activate it, will Colwill have a say in it or not. That's what he means. Brighton will have to accept the offer if we pay the release clause but what @Argo is asking is whether the player has a say if he wants to stay or it is an obligation to move. I think it is the latter but not 100% sure.

If I had to guess, the transfer goes ahead and the only thing a player could turn down would be a fresh contract. Which would hamper our interest in paying 40m. E.g. Colwill may only have 2 or 3 years remaining on his current deal.

But I can't imagine a situation where we would want to activate the clause and he wouldn't want to move. 

10 hours ago, just said:

What was that last bit? Why can't you just admit TT is no more open to a young player walking in to our first team squad than Jose was?

But then, why should he be? He needs results week in week put. Whose to say that philosophy is wrong? We have, ALLEGEDLY, the best academy production line in Europe. But that doesn't mean we have to play them though. Just make a profit on them.

I think our young talent are realising that and choosing to move on early rather than wait for a real opportunity that probably, very probably, won't come. I for one, don't blame them. I think it shows ambition and belief in their own abilities. 

 

It is very strange that people still defend Tuchel youth policy.

Btw I completely agree with what you said. The success of borja, gallagher, guehi, tomori, tammy, livramento make our youth realize that they belong in top flight football and it does not have to be with us. They can have success elsewhere.