37 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Wonder if the new baby has anything to do with it. 

Including the 9 months before?

1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

Including the 9 months before?

Well you know, usually pregnancy lasts 9 months so...

3 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I still think Enzo deserves some level of freedom in the way he roams, but I agree with you on Caicedo. He really isn't a natural DM in the sense Lesly is. He's a box to box. 

I'm not sure any level of coaching can turn players into what they aren't. 

I agree that Enzo should be dictating our play and that for that he does need some level of freedom.

But there is something missing there, if both him and Caicedo like to roam, meaning if you're right about Caicedo being a more box-to-box player, then it sounds like we didn't solve our problem from the past when we had both Kovacic and Kante doing exactly that and leaving too big of an area for the opposition.

Enzo in that case must come back and play deeper in order for Caicedo to not be in shackles. Leave all that space in front for Gallagher, Palmer, Nkunku and distribute the ball while Caicedo does the box-to-box thing, I see no other way for it to work out otherwise unless Lavia plays deeper than the two of them in a 4-3-3?

Enzo Caicedo
     Lavia

But then it would mean that Poch changes his formation. It's more natural for Poch to play with Nkunku centrally which gives us the much needed clinical attacking power.

Sterling Nkunku Palmer

       Enzo Caicedo

Or switch to a 4-4-2.

             Sterling Nkunku
   Mudryk Enzo Caicedo Palmer

We do have options but it takes balls to try it out, Conte had the balls to change his tactic mid season and it ended up being amazing.

Needs to do more. For the money we paid and the reputation and approval he got from many fans, he doesn't control the game enough. You compare how Rice is in that Arsenal midfield and he bosses every game. I think the difference is clear in how difficult the PL is. Enzo is by no means a weakling, but doesn't have the dominating physical presence in midfield. So he is not able to impose himself on the game same ways like Rice is able too. He was brilliant against Liverpool first game and also against Fulham but have not seen enough games this season where he has controlled the game.

Same thing can go to Caicedo but seeing as Fernandez is considered to be the playmaker and probably a higher reputation, kind of picked on him and posted in here instead of Caicedo thread.

You know what I thought yesterday?

That what we saw was a dead ringer to what happened when we used to face Arsenal 15 years ago. They would show up with two talented youngsters like Denilson and Alex Song in midfield while we would show up with men like Essien, Mikel and Lampard. And we'd brutalize them just as Amrabat & McTominay did to Caicedo and Enzo yesterday.

We used to laugh ourselves silly over Arsenal, now we've become a ultra cheap version of what they used to be at their worst.

5 minutes ago, OriginalS said:

You know what I thought yesterday?

That what we saw was a dead ringer to what happened when we used to face Arsenal 15 years ago. They would show up with two talented youngsters like Denilson and Alex Song in midfield while we would show up with men like Essien, Mikel and Lampard. And we'd brutalize them just as Amrabat & McTominay did to Caicedo and Enzo yesterday.

We used to laugh ourselves silly over Arsenal, now we've become a ultra cheap version of what they used to be at their worst.

Good comparison to yesterday Gooners. We have far too many players in the side who aren’t prepared to put their bodies on the line defending. Yesterday we made McTominany look world class simply by having little presence in midfield. We got dominated, maybe the manager should have been a little wiser and added a third midfielder last night, Old Trafford is always a hard place to play under the lights. It’s clear to see though why at present Poch likes Gallagher to start as a norm. 
 

9 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I agree that Enzo should be dictating our play and that for that he does need some level of freedom.

But there is something missing there, if both him and Caicedo like to roam, meaning if you're right about Caicedo being a more box-to-box player, then it sounds like we didn't solve our problem from the past when we had both Kovacic and Kante doing exactly that and leaving too big of an area for the opposition.

Enzo in that case must come back and play deeper in order for Caicedo to not be in shackles. Leave all that space in front for Gallagher, Palmer, Nkunku and distribute the ball while Caicedo does the box-to-box thing, I see no other way for it to work out otherwise unless Lavia plays deeper than the two of them in a 4-3-3?

Enzo Caicedo
     Lavia

But then it would mean that Poch changes his formation. It's more natural for Poch to play with Nkunku centrally which gives us the much needed clinical attacking power.

Sterling Nkunku Palmer

       Enzo Caicedo

Or switch to a 4-4-2.

             Sterling Nkunku
   Mudryk Enzo Caicedo Palmer

We do have options but it takes balls to try it out, Conte had the balls to change his tactic mid season and it ended up being amazing.

Lavia isn't a DM either. 

12 hours ago, Upb78 said:

Well you know, usually pregnancy lasts 9 months so...

Crikey i know that Fernandez can do pretty much everything, but i didn't realise this included gestation.

Just now, Sconnie Blue said:

Lavia isn't a DM either. 

I am pretty sure I see him in the interview when he signed describe his game as protecting the back like and breaking up play 

13 hours ago, OriginalS said:

You know what I thought yesterday?

That what we saw was a dead ringer to what happened when we used to face Arsenal 15 years ago. They would show up with two talented youngsters like Denilson and Alex Song in midfield while we would show up with men like Essien, Mikel and Lampard. And we'd brutalize them just as Amrabat & McTominay did to Caicedo and Enzo yesterday.

We used to laugh ourselves silly over Arsenal, now we've become a ultra cheap version of what they used to be at their worst.

Yes, playing kids against men usually ended up in tears, Jose figured that out 20 years ago.

Tick tock.

 

That's the sound of Enzos patience with this project running out.

17 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Tick tock.

 

That's the sound of Enzos patience with this project running out.

He is not going to lose patience that easily, he got everything he wished for so this project is also on his shoulders.

Hmm so rival fans are turning their banter to Enzo, renaming him Enjojo, claiming he is our rich man's Jonjo Shelvey.

Caicedo is also Concedo, that one explains itself.

Banter era, well we did have fun for a while at their expense.

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Hmm so rival fans are turning their banter to Enzo, renaming him Enjojo, claiming he is our rich man's Jonjo Shelvey.

Caicedo is also Concedo, that one explains itself.

Banter era, well we did have fun for a while at their expense.

More stuff for you to have a w**k over then. 

1 hour ago, Victor90 said:

More stuff for you to have a w**k over then. 

I'm sorry, do we have a problem here Victor? 

Blaming Enzo for our troubles makes about as much sense as blaming Alisson Liverpools season last year or Willian in 15/16.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

Blaming Enzo for our troubles makes about as much sense as blaming Alisson Liverpools season last year or Willian in 15/16.

Aye but you know how rival fans are. Heck he has been coping heat from some on here too.

Before the season started quite a few were on board with the idea of Enzo playing further forward, I was completely against that but turns out Enzo's dad convinced a lot of people so you all got what you deserve. Should have just kept Kovacic then, same bottom line on the pitch.

A world-class midfielder ruined so might as well sell him and start with a whole new project because it's looking too rough out there, you can't build a team around him in this way. 

 

Looking every bit the 40m pound player signed on the back of a decent tournament in a team dragged along on the coat tails of the greatest player in a generation.  

52 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Before the season started quite a few were on board with the idea of Enzo playing further forward, I was completely against that but turns out Enzo's dad convinced a lot of people so you all got what you deserve. Should have just kept Kovacic then, same bottom line on the pitch.

A world-class midfielder ruined so might as well sell him and start with a whole new project because it's looking too rough out there, you can't build a team around him in this way. 

 

Against United he played as  DLP and could not get into the game at all. I think he is a very good player but think he has had a bit of a meteoric rise way too fast and the World Cup achievements has obviously raised expectations but you can see he is not 100% there yet with the pace and physical nature of the PL. I did not see much of him before the World Cup started so I could not lay my judgement on him apart from the comments in the forums and I was hopeful but I am thinking that he defo isn't as ready as some people thought. The whole team is an issue but I expected him to be making things happen constantly but like the likes of Sterling and co sometimes, there isn't enough leaders to take the game into their own hands like Hazard did.

He will come really good like Caicedo I am sure, but again today just no control of play. I defo think he will be a top player and he will be killing it next season but right now can see why people are underwhelmed.

1 hour ago, STATS said:

Against United he played as  DLP and could not get into the game at all.

It didn't look like he was the vast majority of the time. He was way too far up the pitch and was always coming late to defend and even conceded a penalty. It was no different now at Goodison, he spent most of the time being an extra man in the final third, running into people and trying to shoot.

On 08/12/2023 at 16:15, Gol15 said:

Back to Conte 3-4-2-1 means we are already defeated as a club. Nobody plays like that, at least not any side that plays the most updated way and that is winning matches.

Play Enzo deeper like it's supposed to be and let Caicedo have more freedom to press because right now he's a shadow of himself. 

Let's examine some situations;

Hojlund decided to take a shot, if he had passed to Bruno it's a goal, Enzo is playing too far up the pitch, Caicedo can't mark everyone by himself, Enzo is out of position and late:

Enzo also came late and conceded a penalty as well. When we lost possession it's also largley due to Enzo not being anywhere near our passing sequence, 4 players around Palmer:

Just prior to them scoring, Enzo was as high up the pitch as Mudryk:

We actually scored when Enzo came to play deeper and when he really was in line with Caicedo in a 4-2-3-1 like it's supposed to be, you can actually see Palmer making the run:

Enzo is given far too much freedom by Poch. I don't care what his dad wants he should be playing deeper because this isn't going to work.

 

 

He looks lost in the system right now. I don’t know what to suggest, but I know there is much more there than we are seeing. Keep the faith with him. 

Best I have seen him play is when we play back 5 

16 hours ago, charierre said:

Looking every bit the 40m pound player signed on the back of a decent tournament in a team dragged along on the coat tails of the greatest player in a generation.  

Yep. Perhaps if Spurs tire of the woeful Romero we can get him into our defence as well. World Cup winner after all.

I think the reality is that in a well structured and organised team he can be effective and a pivotal. Same as Jorginho could have been for us. Of course, its a pretty pivotal position.

In a disorganised non functioning team his obvious limitations are, well, obvious and are somewhat heightened by the pivotal position. Can't run, can't head, can't shoot, has limited passing range when under pressure, can be bullied and out muscled when isolated. Pretty similar to Jorginho for me.