17 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Yep, we have not seen this type of play for many months. What's telling is there are two 1v1s in the box - Felix at the front post, Sterling taking the back post and a clear angle for the wide player to make the pass. So often this play has broken down because the wide player or overlapper hits a cross in the air attempting to pick out the four midgets nowhere near the box.

Still, i'm not convinced it wasn't just a fluke!

That's the key. The pull back isn't rocket science. Except to some of our lads.

31 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Yep, we have not seen this type of play for many months. What's telling is there are two 1v1s in the box - Felix at the front post, Sterling taking the back post and a clear angle for the wide player to make the pass. So often this play has broken down because the wide player or overlapper hits a cross in the air attempting to pick out the four midgets nowhere near the box.

Still, i'm not convinced it wasn't just a fluke!

Hopefully it isn't because this can be repeatable.This is everyone doing what they are good at which is  😍😍

Like you said this is not floating crosses to midget in the box with Kai Havertz playing as 9 and then people are asking why we only score 1 every 10 games.

We had Madueke who is good at one on one freezed defender,  athletic fb making underlapping run, cut back with 4 player in the box.  

 

Edited May 15, 20233 yr by Bob stark

24 minutes ago, dermott said:

That's the key. The pull back isn't rocket science. Except to some of our lads.

I think they key is creating the space for cutback. Having a player who can manipulate the ball one on one and having another who is a willing and athletic runner is the key. Every team has this combination. Saka + white. I saw mahrez + walker did something similar yesterday (city doesn't really do this anymore though, they have Haaland now, they don't do many cut back) 

Edited May 15, 20233 yr by Bob stark

12 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Hopefully it isn't because this can be repeatable.This is everyone doing what they are good at which is  😍😍

Like you said this is not floating crosses to midget in the box with Kai Havertz playing as 9 and then people are asking why we only score 1 every 10 games.

We had Madueke who is good at one on one freezed defender,  athletic fb making underlapping run, cut back with 4 player in the box.  

 

One problem is that we don't always have available the players who are most inclined to construct this sort of play. The fullbacks are fine, but look at our potential players in the wide right side position:

• Havertz: not good enough 1v1 to freeze the defender, more likely to pass back infield and also should be the ideal recipient of such a play
• Mount/Gallagher/Kante: more likely to run the underlap leaving the FB to run at defender 1 v 1 - less optimal situation
• Ziyech: will use underlap as a decoy to cut inside and cross to back post midget (his signature play, really)
• Pulisic: will use underlap to cut inside and attempt shot, but end up congesting the box by dragging defenders into it.

Compare this to Man City for example, where all their fullbacks (Walker, Lewis) and all their midfielders (De Bruyne, Silva, Mahrez, Foden) are easily capable of pulling off either position in the play. More importantly, they are practiced and attuned to it because Guardiola coaches it, leading to my next point...

12 hours ago, dermott said:

That's the key. The pull back isn't rocket science. Except to some of our lads.

It's rocket science to our lads because we have largely failed to incorporate attacking structures into our coaching for the last 20 years. Scolari, Sarri, Villas-Boas and Potter failed at it, whereas Ancelotti, Mourinho and Tuchel were content to let attackers more or less "do their thing". We've always had a Zola, Lampard, Robben, Mata, Fabregas or Hazard to plug the caps with individual quality. Conte famously did impose these structures, but wanted to micromanage them and naturally the whole thing fell apart. Genuinely, I don't think we've had a structured attacking team since Claudio Ranieri.

I think the best sort of tactic is one that only requires really good players to do simple things. What I mean by this is creating situations where your best individual players only have to complete a simple action to be successful, instead of relying on their ability to pull off the spectactular. I think that Guardiola has completely mastered this in the systems his creates. Individual brilliance is an embellishment on a strong foundation, and it's this that transforms his teams from consistent to utterly dominant in league settings.

Take tiki-taka, for example, which he adopted from Luis Aragones because he saw how well it worked for Spain. Aragones leant into the tactic because he realised his Spain team were too reliant on counter-attacking and crossing to Morientes and Raul, which in turn rested solely on the ability of wingers like Vicente and Joaquin to beat their man, yet had a squad packed with players who could thread the eye of a needle. The success of tiki-taka was that it required the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Fabregas, all capable of picking out a coin on the other side of the field, merely to complete a 5-yard pass most of the time. This was something they could do repeatedly and consistently with almost no effort at all. Add that to a team with clever movement - Henry, Eto'o. Villa, Messi, Pedro etc and you basically create situations where some of the best 1v1 dribblers the game had ever seen were consistently able to be put 1v1 against defenders. It was a system that had top class players consistently complete basic actions to build a foundation that made the special moments easier to come by.

Guardiola did the same at Bayern, again creating a system where Ribery and Robben were often given 1v1 opportunities, and the tweak here was better pressing allowing Ribery and Robben to counter-attack from higher up the pitch. Man City is probably his best team, as probably only de Bruyne gets into his Barcelona or Bayern teams, but again we see the same simplicity as the foundation - de Bruyne can split a defence from the centre circle but the majority of his assists are simple through-balls and cut backs around the box, Mahrez and Foden can beat 2-3 defenders but is always given the ball in a position where they only need to beat 1 and despite his ability on the ball Aguero only ever needed to harry defenders and make runs to receive the ball in a shooting position.

Meanwhile, virtually every other team in the Premier League is heavily reliant on a position or player. Liverpool and ourselves live and die by our fullbacks, which is unsustainable simply because they are not attacking players - our seasons ended when Alexander-Arnold, James and Chilwell produced anything other than exceptional form. Manchester United and Arsenal heavily rely on Bruno Fernandes and Martin Odegaard having a good game. City rarely rely on de Bruyne or even Haaland to have a good game, they just need them to complete simple tasks on a regular basis, and for players of their ability this is repeatable even on an off day.

Edited May 15, 20233 yr by SydneyChelsea

34 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

One problem is that we don't always have available the players who are most inclined to construct this sort of play. The fullbacks are fine, but look at our potential players in the wide right side position:

• Havertz: not good enough 1v1 to freeze the defender, more likely to pass back infield and also should be the ideal recipient of such a play
• Mount/Gallagher/Kante: more likely to run the underlap leaving the FB to run at defender 1 v 1 - less optimal situation
• Ziyech: will use underlap as a decoy to cut inside and cross to back post midget (his signature play, really)
• Pulisic: will use underlap to cut inside and attempt shot, but end up congesting the box by dragging defenders into it.

Compare this to Man City for example, where all their fullbacks (Walker, Lewis) and all their midfielders (De Bruyne, Silva, Mahrez, Foden) are easily capable of pulling off either position in the play. More importantly, they are practiced and attuned to it because Guardiola coaches it, leading to my next point...

It's rocket science to our lads because we have largely failed to incorporate attacking structures into our coaching for the last 20 years. Scolari, Sarri, Villas-Boas and Potter failed at it, whereas Ancelotti, Mourinho and Tuchel were content to let attackers more or less "do their thing". We've always had a Zola, Lampard, Robben, Mata, Fabregas or Hazard to plug the caps with individual quality. Conte famously did impose these structures, but wanted to micromanage them and naturally the whole thing fell apart. Genuinely, I don't think we've had a structured attacking team since Claudio Ranieri.

I think the best sort of tactic is one that only requires really good players to do simple things. What I mean by this is creating situations where your best individual players only have to complete a simple action to be successful, instead of relying on their ability to pull off the spectactular. I think that Guardiola has completely mastered this in the systems his creates. Individual brilliance is an embellishment on a strong foundation, and it's this that transforms his teams from consistent to utterly dominant in league settings.

Take tiki-taka, for example, which he adopted from Luis Aragones because he saw how well it worked for Spain. Aragones leant into the tactic because he realised his Spain team were too reliant on counter-attacking and crossing to Morientes and Raul, which in turn rested solely on the ability of wingers like Vicente and Joaquin to beat their man, yet had a squad packed with players who could thread the eye of a needle. The success of tiki-taka was that it required the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Fabregas, all capable of picking out a coin on the other side of the field, merely to complete a 5-yard pass most of the time. This was something they could do repeatedly and consistently with almost no effort at all. Add that to a team with clever movement - Henry, Eto'o. Villa, Messi, Pedro etc and you basically create situations where some of the best 1v1 dribblers the game had ever seen were consistently able to be put 1v1 against defenders. It was a system that had top class players consistently complete basic actions to build a foundation that made the special moments easier to come by.

Guardiola did the same at Bayern, again creating a system where Ribery and Robben were often given 1v1 opportunities, and the tweak here was better pressing allowing Ribery and Robben to counter-attack from higher up the pitch. Man City is probably his best team, as probably only de Bruyne gets into his Barcelona or Bayern teams, but again we see the same simplicity as the foundation - de Bruyne can split a defence from the centre circle but the majority of his assists are simple through-balls and cut backs around the box, Mahrez and Foden can beat 2-3 defenders but is always given the ball in a position where they only need to beat 1 and despite his ability on the ball Aguero only ever needed to harry defenders and make runs to receive the ball in a shooting position.

Meanwhile, virtually every other team in the Premier League is heavily reliant on a position or player. Liverpool and ourselves live and die by our fullbacks, which is unsustainable simply because they are not attacking players - our seasons ended when Alexander-Arnold, James and Chilwell produced anything other than exceptional form. Manchester United and Arsenal heavily rely on Bruno Fernandes and Martin Odegaard having a good game. City rarely rely on de Bruyne or even Haaland to have a good game, they just need them to complete simple tasks on a regular basis, and for players of their ability this is repeatable even on an off day.

Fantastic post. Its what i have been getting at for some time but in no way as eloquently as you have set it out.

This is all predicated on an acceptable collective level of fitness to ensure that nobody cheats and thus breaks the structures of play therefore relying upon others to pick up the slack and go beyond doing the simple things. Its where i think Mason Mount has picked up some bad press from fans in recent times. Running from pillar to post pressing players becuase teammates like Havertz haven't bothered run energy levels down therefore undermining structures and patterns.

Excellent post. Bang on.

 

7 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

One problem is that we don't always have available the players who are most inclined to construct this sort of play. The fullbacks are fine, but look at our potential players in the wide right side position:

• Havertz: not good enough 1v1 to freeze the defender, more likely to pass back infield and also should be the ideal recipient of such a play
• Mount/Gallagher/Kante: more likely to run the underlap leaving the FB to run at defender 1 v 1 - less optimal situation
• Ziyech: will use underlap as a decoy to cut inside and cross to back post midget (his signature play, really)
• Pulisic: will use underlap to cut inside and attempt shot, but end up congesting the box by dragging defenders into it.

Compare this to Man City for example, where all their fullbacks (Walker, Lewis) and all their midfielders (De Bruyne, Silva, Mahrez, Foden) are easily capable of pulling off either position in the play. More importantly, they are practiced and attuned to it because Guardiola coaches it, leading to my next point...

It's rocket science to our lads because we have largely failed to incorporate attacking structures into our coaching for the last 20 years. Scolari, Sarri, Villas-Boas and Potter failed at it, whereas Ancelotti, Mourinho and Tuchel were content to let attackers more or less "do their thing". We've always had a Zola, Lampard, Robben, Mata, Fabregas or Hazard to plug the caps with individual quality. Conte famously did impose these structures, but wanted to micromanage them and naturally the whole thing fell apart. Genuinely, I don't think we've had a structured attacking team since Claudio Ranieri.

I think the best sort of tactic is one that only requires really good players to do simple things. What I mean by this is creating situations where your best individual players only have to complete a simple action to be successful, instead of relying on their ability to pull off the spectactular. I think that Guardiola has completely mastered this in the systems his creates. Individual brilliance is an embellishment on a strong foundation, and it's this that transforms his teams from consistent to utterly dominant in league settings.

Take tiki-taka, for example, which he adopted from Luis Aragones because he saw how well it worked for Spain. Aragones leant into the tactic because he realised his Spain team were too reliant on counter-attacking and crossing to Morientes and Raul, which in turn rested solely on the ability of wingers like Vicente and Joaquin to beat their man, yet had a squad packed with players who could thread the eye of a needle. The success of tiki-taka was that it required the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi and Fabregas, all capable of picking out a coin on the other side of the field, merely to complete a 5-yard pass most of the time. This was something they could do repeatedly and consistently with almost no effort at all. Add that to a team with clever movement - Henry, Eto'o. Villa, Messi, Pedro etc and you basically create situations where some of the best 1v1 dribblers the game had ever seen were consistently able to be put 1v1 against defenders. It was a system that had top class players consistently complete basic actions to build a foundation that made the special moments easier to come by.

Guardiola did the same at Bayern, again creating a system where Ribery and Robben were often given 1v1 opportunities, and the tweak here was better pressing allowing Ribery and Robben to counter-attack from higher up the pitch. Man City is probably his best team, as probably only de Bruyne gets into his Barcelona or Bayern teams, but again we see the same simplicity as the foundation - de Bruyne can split a defence from the centre circle but the majority of his assists are simple through-balls and cut backs around the box, Mahrez and Foden can beat 2-3 defenders but is always given the ball in a position where they only need to beat 1 and despite his ability on the ball Aguero only ever needed to harry defenders and make runs to receive the ball in a shooting position.

Meanwhile, virtually every other team in the Premier League is heavily reliant on a position or player. Liverpool and ourselves live and die by our fullbacks, which is unsustainable simply because they are not attacking players - our seasons ended when Alexander-Arnold, James and Chilwell produced anything other than exceptional form. Manchester United and Arsenal heavily rely on Bruno Fernandes and Martin Odegaard having a good game. City rarely rely on de Bruyne or even Haaland to have a good game, they just need them to complete simple tasks on a regular basis, and for players of their ability this is repeatable even on an off day.

I am personally not big fan of too structured football (of course too losse is also not good) but you are absolutely right simplifying the role for each player is one of Manchester city key success. Pep ask their player to do few things well (it help when they are so good 😁😁). 

I personally think Arsenal is quite similar to city however the drop off from their main guy to backup is quite drastic. Saliba backup is holding, dias backup is Laporte who probably will start for Arsenal. 🤣🤣

But I agree we need a structured "go to move" where everyone is doing what they are good at and something that we can do repeatedly. 

Arsenal has zinchenko finding martinelli and jesus between the line or Saka one on one with white overlap or odegaard get the ball between the line. Everyone is doing what they are good at and they will do this again and again.

City is the same. Get the ball to wing, cross to Haaland and Gundo in the box. Gundo and haaaland are strong in  the box. B silva and Grealish are strong one on one. Everyone doing what they are good at. 

Then you look at how we play under Tuchel. Tuchel does not want specialist. He want everyone to do everything which make our offense very inconsistent. 

If you look at the makeup of our team under Tuchel 

LHS

Rudi, Chilwell, jorgi, mount 

All of them are runner. So who is the on the ball guy or the dribbler? Of course if you believe jorgi is a wc dpl then it is jorgi but let's be honest he is not.

Mount is decent at between the line game but who can do the zinhcenko pass? The answer is Mount but he can't pass the ball to himself

That is why if you watch our game, our offense works better when we had kova or Cho. They are inconsistent player though. 

As consequences, we have watched "circle of the death sequence" many times rudi to chilwell back to mount back to jorgi back to rudi to Chilwell and then switch play. 😭😭😭

On the RHS

Chalo, Kante, James, timo. 

Who is the on ball guy? James. Who is the dribbler? James. What position is he playing? Wb 😭😭😭

It is crazy asking your rwb to do all of that so we need timo or kante to help reeceon the ball = madness. Kante is a good dribbler and ok on the ball, but you don't want to make it as if he doesn't do this well, the offense doesn't work kind of thing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 20233 yr by Bob stark

I reckon Lamps has been reading some of my posts in here - stuff about taking the small wins here and there, and not necessarily expecting an improvements in results etc….

stagnating and rotten squad. 

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

I reckon Lamps has been reading some of my posts in here - stuff about taking the small wins here and there, and not necessarily expecting an improvements in results etc….

stagnating and rotten squad. 

You definitely feel better 

 

 

 

Part of me worries that Lampard has done some irreversible damage to the players. 

Played RLC who is literally walking through Milan’s door but pour carney loses his World Cup . 
that’s not great 

1 hour ago, Drogba1 said:

 

 

 

Yeah that is poor on Frank's part.

They said we could not be worse than with Potter...

Literally his only job for the remainder of the season was to try and get a few good vibes back. Start playing some of the younger new players and see what they can do. But no, same old sh*t every game. What was the point of signing people like Mudryk and Madueke for tonnes of money if they can't get any game time? No idea what he's doing. Awful awful manager.

5 hours ago, Zeta said:

Literally his only job for the remainder of the season was to try and get a few good vibes back. Start playing some of the younger new players and see what they can do. But no, same old sh*t every game. What was the point of signing people like Mudryk and Madueke for tonnes of money if they can't get any game time? No idea what he's doing. Awful awful manager.

Sad but true. His one win is when he started both Mudryk and Madueke, and then he changed it next game and we drew.

Mendy "deserved" to play that one we hear, I guess the likes of Carney do not.

I absolutely agree that lamp should play kids more but not this nonsense of carney should have played for Ruben. Soon somebody will say, we should play murdyk instead of Kepa. 

 

 

12 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Part of me worries that Lampard has done some irreversible damage to the players. 

Within 2 months?

12 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Part of me worries that Lampard has done some irreversible damage to the players. 

Far more worried about what Potter did to them.

This rotten mentality everyone is showing started creeping in when he arrived and by the time he left any resemblance of pride and fight was completely gone.

Lampard haven't done well but he should never have accepted the job in hindsight. He took on a impossible task.

 

Good footballer Frank, but a truly f**king useless manager. Lost all respect for him. 

2 hours ago, Kev56 said:

Good footballer Frank, but a truly f**king useless manager. Lost all respect for him. 

I wouldn't go quite as far as that but this interim role has been an unmitigated disaster.

Lamps was such a legend as a player I didn't think it possible he could tarnish anything as a manager, but there is no doubt he has pissed off many supporters in this short spell. He was on a hiding to nothing and originally I did feel sorry for him but now I'm just fed up with it all and just want him gone, which is sad when you think of all he has achieved for CFC.

I think with Frank, his tactics or ability to implement them is what sets him back as a manager. There’s no doubt that he understands the game and knows what needs to be done but its tactical side that seems to be his undoing. 
 

One of the kids in my lads football team went for a trial at Liverpool and they gave a presentation saying that the odds of becoming a premier league player is 150 to a million chance. It’s like 0.18%. I suspect the odds are similar to becoming a manager. 

3 hours ago, Kev56 said:

Good footballer Frank, but a truly f**king useless manager. Lost all respect for him. 

 

30 minutes ago, Nibs said:

I wouldn't go quite as far as that but this interim role has been an unmitigated disaster.

Lamps was such a legend as a player I didn't think it possible he could tarnish anything as a manager, but there is no doubt he has pissed off many supporters in this short spell. He was on a hiding to nothing and originally I did feel sorry for him but now I'm just fed up with it all and just want him gone, which is sad when you think of all he has achieved for CFC.

As a wanna be manager. 

It's still possible we could end up being the lowest London club in the league that's bloody depressing. 

53 minutes ago, JM7 said:

I think with Frank, his tactics or ability to implement them is what sets him back as a manager. There’s no doubt that he understands the game and knows what needs to be done but its tactical side that seems to be his undoing. 
 

 

I think you're right. Along with his man management. Whether he will ever be up to it or not, he's been in the perilous situation of learning on the job. At Derby for a season, where he hardly flattered despite some talent in that team. Then pitched in the very deep end at Chelsea to learn on the job and sacked. Then recalled to prove that he hasn't learned much at all. It's been a curious - and slightly sad - journey.

1 hour ago, bluehaze said:

It's still possible we could end up being the lowest London club in the league that's bloody depressing. 

Not as depressing as being the lowest club in the league. The only reason we aren’t is we got a few points earlier on. Absolutely f**king disaster of a season. The worst in my 50 plus years of following the club. 

47 minutes ago, Kev56 said:

Not as depressing as being the lowest club in the league. The only reason we aren’t is we got a few points earlier on. Absolutely f**king disaster of a season. The worst in my 50 plus years of following the club. 

Me too. I can still remember the dark days of 74-89, when we were like a yo-yo, but at least in those days, we knew and accepted we were sh*t. We had a shocking squad, desperately poor Managers (John Neal exempted) no money, a crumbling ground and no prospect of any of it changing. But change it did. The current squad has cost millions, as has the succession of Managers/Coaches, 2 years ago, we were European and World Champions and now look at us. The collapse of the Club is remarkable. I blame 1. The New owners who haven't got a clue, 2. The Players, who to a man, do not seem remotely interested and 3. Graham Potter & Frank Lampard for accepting a job that they must have known was completely outside their very limited skillsets.