17 hours ago, ozboy said:

A new emerging criticism is Poch hasn’t given many minutes to academy players. Gilchrist is an exception. Yet he complains, correctly, that Enzo and Caicedo are tired and over worked. He would have liked to have ugo, Lavia and chukky of course but when they injured he won’t take a risk. Same as he wouldn’t risk maatsen. This has been shown up by Klopp. 

I get a club like Chelsea shouldn’t need to play academy players. But guess what. We do. 

so to me all these things are just consistent with a lack of spirit. 

I am still confused with Maatsen discussion. Maatsen is better of as an attacker in PL. Why he is not playing more? M & M are two very expensive academy player. 

In midfield, I completely agree, kids need to get more minutes. 

Edited March 1, 20242 yr by Bob stark

21 hours ago, RMH said:

He hasn't been capable of making this group of players a team. 8 months in and they are still a group of individuals that have no idea of where each other are... 8 months in! Many coaches can make a team of worse players than we have. It's got to the point that supporters are blaming the players (Enzo, Caicedo are sh*t, nowhere near enough what we paid for them, etc) when the reality is that the coaching team is not improving them or making them play as a team. They've been playing together for 7 months and they are still not on the same wavelength. In addition, he's got no emotion whatsoever and hasn't given any leadership to the team. Leadership starts from the coach! Shockingly spursy coach!

Great post. Agree with all of this

21 hours ago, AndyDowsleftflank said:

Overall agree with this. It has been a horrible situation for him, so its kind of hard to judge him on this season alone

The players seem to like him which doesn’t always have to be the case to be successful, but with our young squad lacking leadership I actually think its crucial. 
I wish I saw more tactical nous from him, my biggest worry is that we seem to be tactically out-thought even against lower opposition, and I do not trust him to change the game for us in a positive way when plan A doesn’t work. But how much of that is because of the resources available to him - I just dont know. 
 

This is not a team that will respond positively to a managerial change and all of a sudden start winning, therefore I think we are better off with him at the moment. 

I don't think managerial change will be  problem. There are many interesting option out there but we can hire whomever, it won't change anything. 

Klopp finished 8th in his first season. Arteta was doing 😵‍💫😵‍💫 in his early days. Pep finished 4th in his first season. 

Does these manager just get better tactically? Nope,They just have better players. 

Our squad building plan is far more concerning. We can't score this season, whoever will be in charge next will ask for a goalscorer. Will the board give him a ready made goal getter or they will just say we have Fofana or give him a 18 year old wonder kid. 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 20242 yr by Bob stark

18 hours ago, evissy said:

Reece James, Ben Chilwell, Fofana, Nkunku, Chukwuemeka, Cucurella, Lavia, Ugochukwu, Chalobah, Badiashile...a list of players mostly out all season. 

This kind of proves @RMH point though doesn't it. If these have been out for most of the season then those replacing them have been in for most of that time. There should be a better level of understanding and joined up play with the main body of the team by now

Some of the poor quality passing and control exhibited by the players makes it look like they just don't focus on developing working relationships and patterns.

16 hours ago, Jangz said:

I am not a Poch backer but i also believe in perspective.. The criticism that you are labelling have been labelled at all managers since the Conte season.. We have had roughly 3 different teams since then..  

As for playing positions out of position .. as much as I hate it too .. all other coaches have done it and i think with out injuries his hand has been forced too.. Apart from Enzo i dont think he has played players out of position when first team players have been available.

As a club we are in poor place and untill we stitch results together we will continue to be low on confidence and play sh*te.. even klopp coundnt do much better maybe a couple of places.. Nothing helps like winning.. Last year Almiron looked worldclass

My advice is have patience.. Arteta was called the spanish Tony Pulis for 4 years.. i dont know if Poch will win or succeed but unlike a lot here

• reaching a cup final is progress for me
• winning and scoring last minute winners against villa/palace etc is progress for me
• Not folding in front of city and others is progress for me

WIth this squad if we finished in the top 6 with good cup runs i think he has at the very least achieved his targets.. 

We have squandered money on poor players and on top have been desperately unlucky with injuries.. so lets keep it real.

This is a good counter balance to the frustration that I am feeling over Poch thus far and I can see the reasoning in a lot of this.

At this point I would just like to see each player take more responsibility for their own mental awareness,  touch control and to take more care in every pass and movement they make.

I can see so much of our problem stems from stunted momentum, negative passing and bad run timing. Just ensuring that passing the ball accurately and at the right pace and then receiving players being economical and active with their touches will massively improve tempo and confidence.  Finally we have to have a striker that dominates.

I think Villa are a really good side this season. Each player generally has the attributes above and so they look slick, they move rapidly and with confidence and with Watkins they have a dominant forward running the line.

They were a shambles under Gerrard and Emery has had a similar length of time to Poch. I don't believe the core of their players are dramatically better than ours but the coaching and the attention to detail is clearly far better.

This is what I lay at Pochettino's door. Get this right, then I am not too worried about Europe or league position because I'll know we are on the right track and developing.  Just can't see any of this currently. 

Edited March 1, 20242 yr by WhiteWall

Based on what I read in this thread, most fans here will prefer if we hire de zerbi/sarri/conte style manager.

I guarantee you, after 1 month, we will have clear pattern of play that many  here can see, better passing. Everyone will know where is everyone anytime. You will think that our player have radar on their head. 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

I don't think managerial change will be  problem. There are many interesting option out there but we can hire whomever, it won't change anything. 

Klopp finished 8th in his first season. Arteta was doing 😵‍💫😵‍💫 in his early days. Pep finished 4th in his first season. 

Does these manager just get better tactically? Nope,They just have better players. 

Our squad building plan is far more concerning. We can't score this season, whoever will be in charge next will ask for a goalscorer. Will the board give him a ready made goal getter or they will just say we have Fofana or give him a 18 year old wonder kid. 

 

 

 

That's a good point, with the current recruiting model and potential FFP constraint, difficult to see us improve the quality of players anytime soon. Let's say we hire a De Zerbi who will get more about of players, but can't expect him to train 5 or 6 players individually to improve them.  He will be relying on recruitment to give him a Lewis Dunn type of player. Brighton is a lot more forgiving, nobody called them bottlers when they got thrashed by Luton or lost in the last minute to Spurs. It's a completely different game at Chelsea, Potter would have told him that.

7 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

That's a good point, with the current recruiting model and potential FFP constraint, difficult to see us improve the quality of players anytime soon. Let's say we hire a De Zerbi who will get more about of players, but can't expect him to train 5 or 6 players individually to improve them.  He will be relying on recruitment to give him a Lewis Dunn type of player. Brighton is a lot more forgiving, nobody called them bottlers when they got thrashed by Luton or lost in the last minute to Spurs. It's a completely different game at Chelsea, Potter would have told him that.

The problem with manager like De Zerbi is once your opp find out your circuit, like you said even team like Luton can smash you. It is unthinkable for Brighton to get smashed by Brighton but this the weakness of circuit ball. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 20242 yr by Bob stark

Btw a lot of people here say that we don't have pattern of play which is very strange because Poch is a circuit manager. He is just not a very strict one. 

 

Brighton is a well run club with right people in right positions just like City. What Brighton doesn't have is the big club pressure. That is what the outside world does to our young boys. 

As Pochettino have said many times over the lads need full support now and not later. Lose games, fine. Cheer them on. What we don't need is sour fans and opportunistic media pushing the Roman agenda and glory days to their face. We can't do sh*t with the media but we can cheer the lads on.

Edit: as far as I understand the match going fans have done just this.

Edited March 1, 20242 yr by evissy

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

 

Klopp finished 8th in his first season. Arteta was doing 😵‍💫😵‍💫 in his early days. Pep finished 4th in his first season. 

Does these manager just get better tactically? Nope,They just have better players. 

 

 

 

 

Actually managers can get better, tactically, culturally, language skills, managing up, out and down, learning the other teams,  just as players can improve. Emery is an example I think, Postecoglou is a far different manager to when he started out.

I do agree that better players make more of a difference. However it's the complete package. You are defined in these things by your weaknesses not your strengths. If team is just missing a striker that's what shows up. If team is missing the right manager that's what shows up. If team is young, missing striker, and manager, that's what shows up.

9 minutes ago, evissy said:

Brighton is a well run club with right people in right positions just like City. What Brighton doesn't have is the big club pressure. That is what the outside world does to our young boys. 

As Pochettino have said many times over the lads need full support now and not later. Lose games, fine. Cheer them on. What we don't need is sour fans and opportunistic media pushing the Roman agenda and glory days to their face. We can't do sh*t with the media but we can cheer the lads on.

Yes, We are currently being run like Brighton. It is a very interesting experiment. Hopefully it can work in the long run. On the short term, it is just crazy. 

 

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Based on what I read in this thread, most fans here will prefer if we hire de zerbi/sarri/conte style manager.

I guarantee you, after 1 month, we will have clear pattern of play that many  here can see, better passing. Everyone will know where is everyone anytime. You will think that our player have radar on their head. 

 

 

 

 

 

Emery is not a Sarri/de Zerbi/Conte kind of coach. And within weeks he had his players playing like a compact team. Understanding each other does not imply a static type of football, it means that you can anticipate where your team mate is going to be within the second and getting the ball there fast or cover for him in the defensive part of the game. Ancelotti, whom you equate with Pochettino (which is plain crazy if you ask me), has the Madrid players playing as a team (it is true that they've got a settled team with players having been together for seasons), but I don't see how Pochettino has made any progress on that. We are a collective of individuals who still don't know how to play with each other 7 months down the line.

 

don't get the hype around De Zerbi. His tactics have been found out this season. When Bholey's fetish club get beaten they get walloped. If we win the game in hand we are one point behind De Zerbi's side. Last season we finished how many points behind his team, think it was 18... It could be argued that this is an improvement right or has De Zerbi been found out or his team not performed as well? Great mid table manager... goes to united and he is still a good mid table manager. Moves to us, good mid table manager...  it's not like they've had an injury crisis like ours to deal with. Leads me onto the next type of manager... I dont see him as a man to get us turning up into the top four let alone challenging for a title. Happy to change perspectives on him should he get the fetish club past roma. Not won anything with any club outside of Romania. 

Sarri - Sarri ball. Fans turned on him after we got walloped like a De Zerbi team - we all know how that went down with match day fans. "F**k sariball" chants... 

Conte... the man child... nuff said. Toxic manager. got found out tactically after winning the title. Was crap at spurs even before his implosion. 

Emre, sitting 4th in the table but when they get beaten they also get walloped. (space behind full backs see how we exploited it at their place) didnt do well at a big club like Arsenal... who were in a similar position to us now when he took over club wises 

Remember Scolari's football? didnt last long... 

It has also happened to Poch this season with us. (think Liverpool away) 

Guarantee, if we got Emry, De Zerbi, and we get walloped, the calls from fans will be the same, sack the manager. 

Basically, some fans won't be happy until Poch is sacked - it's as simple as that. Can the club keep affording to pay manager release clauses? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, olderschoolcfc said:

don't get the hype around De Zerbi.

Personally I'm quite amused that people want De Zerbi to replace Poch when Poch has beaten De Zerbi three times in a row this season when we are apparently crap and Brighton are the best thing since sliced bread LOL. The old adage "be careful what you wish for" I guess !

 

3 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Yes, We are currently being run like Brighton. It is a very interesting experiment. Hopefully it can work in the long run. On the short term, it is just crazy. 

 

Crazy for a traditional big club that has fans who are expecting to win every game and living in the past 🤣🤣

2 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Personally I'm quite amused that people want De Zerbi to replace Poch when Poch has beaten De Zerbi three times in a row this season when we are apparently crap and Brighton are the best thing since sliced bread LOL. The old adage "be careful what you wish for" I guess !

 

Not that I think De Zerbi is the answer, Brighton have been injury stricken far worse than we have been on both occasions, stripped of their two best players in Caicedo and MacAllister, and despite beating them they are still 4 points clear ahead of us. 

On 26/02/2024 at 13:46, WhiteWall said:

Klopp was considered a serial loser before Liverpool? Seriously? For getting Dortmund to a whisker of Champions league glory over the club side that completely and totally dominated their league. This after back to back league titles. Let's not forget that Bayern side under Heynkes were the equivalent of Man City playing in the Championship ( I mean this Man City team, not the Shaun Goater, Paul Dickov and Nicky Weaver team that were actually there). The structure, finances, players, their pull for other players domestically.

I get the point about giving the right man the right length of time to develop something and despite the inauspicious start, Klopp was incrementally improving them even then, but serial loser before Liverpool is a bit of a stretch isn't it.

And isn't the message about finding the right man to start with. My question is how do you find the right man. This guy is on a two year contract. To warrant demonstrative progress where should we be by now?

TBF, Klopp lost 3 out of 4 major finals with Dortmund. He was considered a bit of a bottle job in big games.

Cole Palmer seems to rate Pochettino anyway ...  :-)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68445255 

Asked if Pochettino has made him a better player, Palmer said "yeah", adding: "He's given me the freedom to play my stuff and I like it when he frees you because I feel I can express my stuff more.

"I'm loving it. Every day he's talking to you about different things, not just football things but life things as well. He's good at making you feel good and trying to get the best out of you."

 

Who wants to be first to tell Cole how wrong he is ?

I see both sides of the debate, I think @RMH has got a good point, we're still all over the place and nobody besides Gallagher has improved from last season into this season. 

Gusto and Palmer have been the two standouts from our recent signings, they've both been excellent, everyone else is a bit hit or miss. I still think the team needs more time, you can see we're incredibly inexperienced, it was always going to be a very hard job to get everyone gelling. It's frustrating, I believe he's underperforming, but I also think he should get more time, simple as that really. 

46 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Not that I think De Zerbi is the answer, Brighton have been injury stricken far worse than we have been on both occasions, stripped of their two best players in Caicedo and MacAllister, and despite beating them they are still 4 points clear ahead of us. 

So context and perspective are only important if it is someone else other than Poch ... 

Got it ... thanks !

37 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

So context and perspective are only important if it is someone else other than Poch ... 

Got it ... thanks !

What context and perspective are you specifically pointing to? Brighton have a worse squad than us, with multiple injuries, and are still above us despite beating them?

1 hour ago, Sexyfootball said:

Asked if Pochettino has made him a better player, Palmer said "yeah", adding: "He's given me the freedom to play my stuff and I like it when he frees you because I feel I can express my stuff more.

 

That's kind oif the problem though. He just lets players be "free" and so the majority of them don't seem to know what to do. Sure it works for some, but it's not enough to just let the team be free. 

We are facing a Brentford team that have lost 12 in their last 15 and the majority of us have zero confidence at the weekend. 

Ownership need to make a decision. If they do intend on keeping Poch, which media suggests, they need to own up to their decision and be held accountable if it gets any worse or there is no improvement. Especially considering the managerial pool this summer is pretty stacked. 

1 hour ago, Zeta said:

That's kind oif the problem though. He just lets players be "free" and so the majority of them don't seem to know what to do. Sure it works for some, but it's not enough to just let the team be free. 

with this young squad we need someone who can help them grow, if they want someone to let the players be free then let the kit manager do the work