5 hours ago, ozboy said:

Great video. Makes you realize just how talented Neymar is. His career is a bit of a tragedy. Deserved to have been seen at his best in big tournaments. 

Meh, karma for all of that cheating. Hard to feel sorry for him.

2 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Meh, karma for all of that cheating. Hard to feel sorry for him.

I'm with you on that.

8 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Meh, karma for all of that cheating. Hard to feel sorry for him.

And yet Maradonna had his hand of god and is remembered as a great footballer. And despite that handball anyone who watched that tournament will have seen how he was clearly a great player and how diminished that tournament and football in general would have been diminished without Maradonna. Your view is churlish in my opinion but there you go. . I don’t see neymar being injured as  karma but as a loss to people like me who like to watch great footballers. 

4 hours ago, ozboy said:

And yet Maradonna had his hand of god and is remembered as a great footballer. And despite that handball anyone who watched that tournament will have seen how he was clearly a great player and how diminished that tournament and football in general would have been diminished without Maradonna. Your view is churlish in my opinion but there you go. . I don’t see neymar being injured as  karma but as a loss to people like me who like to watch great footballers. 

Maradona is remembered more for his football outside of England, but in England, everybody remembers him more for his hand of god moment. It's the first thing that comes to most peoples mind when they think of him.

I don't think my comment is churlish. If he wasn't the biggest cheat of his generation, people wouldn't feel this way about him.

On 25/06/2024 at 03:06, frendz said:

Don't feel he is worth this much amount of money when we could have invested directly in current team. Check this video. Neymar was and is all about about skilling and dribbling while this guy is just dribbling. He isn't using any skills. So probably wont perform well against better defenses.

 

It's why he is called "Messinho" and not compared to other players.

But in the video you have sent, Neymar was already in his third and fourth season with Santos, aged 20 and 21, months before he left for Barcelona. Bit unfair to compare him to a 17 yo Estevao.

If you want a closer look into both players at 17 you should search for Neymar's compilation videos at 17 in his debut season with Santos. He is doing the same things Estevao does at the moment. Simple dribblings, simple flicks, a skinny, not yet matured body, he is easily brushed off by opponents. But you can see the talent, just like with Estevao right now. Honestly the way recently turned 17 year olds normally look when they switch to proffesional football.

The more I look into it, the more I start to believe that this whole analytics stuff is a game changer and our board might get a lot of stick for it, but will prove to be the winning formula in the future. And currently, based on that type of data, Estevao is the #1 prospect in the whole world.

Might prove to be the winning move just like it was with the Mavericks and Doncic. Their scouting team had Ayton as the undisputable #1 pick, whereas their analytics team had Doncic not only as the #1 pick, but as the one and only player capable of superstar levels in that draft. And the Mavericks took the massive analytics based gamble and it paid off.

And just like Neymar at 17, Doncic at 17 looked like a normal youngster with bags of potential, but nothing more than that. Sports it is all about developing and improving through your prime years, this is why it is unfair to compare 17 year olds to already developed ones, especially the Neymar before his move to Barcelona. In 2013, Barcelona did not take a gamble on Neymar the prospect, they moved for the already developed Neymar, way past his prospect days, with 4 years in the Santos team and almost 200 professional matches.

Chelsea now took a massive gamble on the Estevao prospect, just like they tried to do with the 18 yo Neymar when we bid over 25M for him and it would have proved to be the right move.

12 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Maradona is remembered more for his football outside of England, but in England, everybody remembers him more for his hand of god moment. It's the first thing that comes to most peoples mind when they think of him.

I don't think my comment is churlish. If he wasn't the biggest cheat of his generation, people wouldn't feel this way about him.

Fair enough. There is a very good movie about Maradonna that shows what happened to him in Italy. Well worth watching, one of my favourite sports movies. I thought Maradonna in that USA tournament, a great tournament, was on a different level. There were times when he was playing where it. Looked like everyone else was standing still. In fact probably along with Brazil Italy and France Germany from 1982 World Cup some of the most memorable football I’ve ever seen. 

2 hours ago, ozboy said:

Fair enough. There is a very good movie about Maradonna that shows what happened to him in Italy. Well worth watching, one of my favourite sports movies. I thought Maradonna in that USA tournament, a great tournament, was on a different level. There were times when he was playing where it. Looked like everyone else was standing still. In fact probably along with Brazil Italy and France Germany from 1982 World Cup some of the most memorable football I’ve ever seen. 

Was that the one where he disgraced his entire country by getting banned and thrown out for drugs.

1 hour ago, WhiteWall said:

Was that the one where he disgraced his entire country by getting banned and thrown out for drugs.

Yeah, there's a very good reason he looked like he was playing on a different level.....

I'll give you a hint...

 

 

The movie is a lot better than a drug movie, although it might suit you poms to believe Maradonna was on drugs and neymar cheats. As usual if you aren’t English you arent  any good and if you are it’s because you cheat. Makes me smile. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maradona_(film)

40 minutes ago, ozboy said:

The movie is a lot better than a drug movie, although it might suit you poms to believe Maradonna was on drugs and neymar cheats. As usual if you aren’t English you arent  any good and if you are it’s because you cheat. Makes me smile. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maradona_(film)

Well no, we believe he was on drugs because he was actually on drugs.

2 hours ago, ozboy said:

The movie is a lot better than a drug movie, although it might suit you poms to believe Maradonna was on drugs and neymar cheats. As usual if you aren’t English you arent  any good and if you are it’s because you cheat. Makes me smile. 
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maradona_(film)

Shame about the ridiculous comment accusing a bias that you have no evidence that i have, cos you're a really good poster. You cited the 94 world cup in your post. Factually I am correct that he failed a drugs test in that tournament and was subject to a lengthy ban. I can't imagine what led the authorities to select him for screening.

 

It has nothing to do with any form of xenophobia on my part. I just cannot abide cheating. 

 

This one is official, should join Kendry Peaz in the general section @Mod ;)

8 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

Shame about the ridiculous comment accusing a bias that you have no evidence that i have, cos you're a really good poster. You cited the 94 world cup in your post. Factually I am correct that he failed a drugs test in that tournament and was subject to a lengthy ban. I can't imagine what led the authorities to select him for screening.

 

It has nothing to do with any form of xenophobia on my part. I just cannot abide cheating. 

 

Of course Maradonna took drugs. My point is he was one the best footballers the world has ever seen. His story was so much more than the end of his career. He carried Argentina in the 86 World Cup when he was 25 having come back from a broken leg. He carried Napoli to a scuddeto when they were a rubbish team. He may well have ended up on drugs anyway but if you watch the movie you will see how Napoli embraced him, gave him a home, chewed him up and then discarded him like last season’s t shirt. it’s a top movie. 
 

I recalled the “86 World Cup as in the USA it was Mexico as I should have remembered.   one of Maradonnas goals was voted goal of the century  if you watch the movie, which doesn’t show much football but in what it does show you will just see a beat juventus or Milan defender just shake his head  

my original point was that had he not been injured Neymar may have given us football lovers similar joy. 
. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 20242 yr by ozboy

Regardless of the drugs, Maradona is the best footballer I’ve ever seen. 
 

Back on topic. Estevao looks like the real deal although adapting to the PL is always difficult. Paez looks ahead of him from what I’ve watched but hopeful both are the real deal.

On 30/06/2024 at 04:09, petre ispirescu said:

It's why he is called "Messinho" and not compared to other players.

But in the video you have sent, Neymar was already in his third and fourth season with Santos, aged 20 and 21, months before he left for Barcelona. Bit unfair to compare him to a 17 yo Estevao.

If you want a closer look into both players at 17 you should search for Neymar's compilation videos at 17 in his debut season with Santos. He is doing the same things Estevao does at the moment. Simple dribblings, simple flicks, a skinny, not yet matured body, he is easily brushed off by opponents. But you can see the talent, just like with Estevao right now. Honestly the way recently turned 17 year olds normally look when they switch to proffesional football.

The more I look into it, the more I start to believe that this whole analytics stuff is a game changer and our board might get a lot of stick for it, but will prove to be the winning formula in the future. And currently, based on that type of data, Estevao is the #1 prospect in the whole world.

Might prove to be the winning move just like it was with the Mavericks and Doncic. Their scouting team had Ayton as the undisputable #1 pick, whereas their analytics team had Doncic not only as the #1 pick, but as the one and only player capable of superstar levels in that draft. And the Mavericks took the massive analytics based gamble and it paid off.

And just like Neymar at 17, Doncic at 17 looked like a normal youngster with bags of potential, but nothing more than that. Sports it is all about developing and improving through your prime years, this is why it is unfair to compare 17 year olds to already developed ones, especially the Neymar before his move to Barcelona. In 2013, Barcelona did not take a gamble on Neymar the prospect, they moved for the already developed Neymar, way past his prospect days, with 4 years in the Santos team and almost 200 professional matches.

Chelsea now took a massive gamble on the Estevao prospect, just like they tried to do with the 18 yo Neymar when we bid over 25M for him and it would have proved to be the right move.

The board gets stick for it because they are acting like they invented the idea of quantitative analysis, when in reality Chelsea have had a "data-driven" transfer policy for over a decade. Data is why we targeted players like Antonio Rudiger, Ngolo Kante and Nemanja Matic, but it's also why we took gambles on Bakayoko, Werner, Havertz and Morata.

Not sure I agree about the basketball comparison either as the 2018 draft class is probably an exercise in the failure of data analytics. Analytics had DeAndre Ayton as a clear #1 pick based on his college data, and the same analyses focussed entirely on Doncic as a playmaker. Those models totally undersold the fact that Doncic was a standout game-changer despite being a boy playing against grown men in Euroleague, and oversold the value of American college ball data vs an actual professional Euroleague. Besides, Mavericks were also lucky that Atlanta were prepared to trade down for Doncic so it is hardly a decision borne of premeditation and analysis.

Estevao may well go on to be a great player but let's not pretend that the data is showing that right now. For one, the majority of his "data" refers to performances in youth football. It's a speculative gamble that is likely just as informed by hype from agents, media and the selling club as much as any rational analysis, but given how low the cost is in these inflated times, it is actually pretty reasonable. If his name was "Steve Williams" we would have had to pay double as much before any incentives.  

What this management appear to have not yet realised is that players do not develop in a vacuum. There is no hidden variable that determines a player's potential like in a video game. All players need infrastructure - coaching, mentoring from senior players, freedom from injury and actual game time - and when players don't perform as expected it's almost always because one of those four factors is lacking rather than an intrinsic limit. With a new coach, no senior/experienced players, a poor injury record and a bloated squad, we may well be unable to provide any of them to our promising young players. No player, not even Messi or Ronaldo, has ever reached their potential without support.

 

On 29/06/2024 at 19:23, Scott Harris said:

Maradona is remembered more for his football outside of England, but in England, everybody remembers him more for his hand of god moment. It's the first thing that comes to most peoples mind when they think of him.

I don't think my comment is churlish. If he wasn't the biggest cheat of his generation, people wouldn't feel this way about him.

Maradona for me is the greatest ever player. I know Messi is really it but I love larger than life characters and Diego was that. Messi is not a character in one least bit.

As I like the fact England always fail in big comps I like his goal by hand even more 🤣. Sorry England fans...

3 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

The board gets stick for it because they are acting like they invented the idea of quantitative analysis, when in reality Chelsea have had a "data-driven" transfer policy for over a decade. 

 

In what way have they acted like they invented it?

On 01/07/2024 at 17:08, dkw said:

In what way have they acted like they invented it?

Specifically Eghbali to be fair; 

"[We] looked at it and we think European sports is probably 20 years behind US sports in terms of sophistication on the commercial side, and sophistication on the data side. [...] "

Which is an absolutely arrogant, nonsense take. The data analysis methods applicable to US sport and scouting do not work in football because of the underlying mathematics, and Chelsea have had a world-class analytics department for years.

7 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Specifically Eghbali to be fair; 

"[We] looked at it and we think European sports is probably 20 years behind US sports in terms of sophistication on the commercial side, and sophistication on the data side. [...] "

Which is an absolutely arrogant, nonsense take. The data analysis methods applicable to US sport and scouting do not work in football because of the underlying mathematics, and Chelsea have had a world-class analytics department for years.

To be fair they have first hand knowledge of that. Boehly runs LA Dodgers so if he sees methods used in Europe he saw in America used 20 years ago I think the comment is at least somewhat fair. How much it affects day-to-day or the outcome of the performance is another question. 

You also need to consider European people might not be as willing to take all the "commercial sophistication" the same way American people do. America culturally is so much different. Just by watching American sports you can see that.

However this (commercial side) is where I think the club can gain most advantage. The sporting side is much much more competed and it is not percentages you talk about when trying to gain advantage over your competition.

7 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Specifically Eghbali to be fair; 

"[We] looked at it and we think European sports is probably 20 years behind US sports in terms of sophistication on the commercial side, and sophistication on the data side. [...] "

Which is an absolutely arrogant, nonsense take. The data analysis methods applicable to US sport and scouting do not work in football because of the underlying mathematics, and Chelsea have had a world-class analytics department for years.

So they didnt claim they invented it then. 

 

Scored another just now against Bahia, with a great run and finish.

Only problem is that he ran direct and straight towards the goal, which will get him benched at Chelsea 

 

2 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Scored another just now against Bahia, with a great run and finish.

Only problem is that he ran direct and straight towards the goal, which will get him benched at Chelsea 

He's young and coachable - Cobham can solve that issue.  Don't know what he is thinking. 

We are a bit disconnected from the reality of day to day Brazilian football to understand just how massive this kid actually is in that country. I sometimes find myself translating comments from Brazilian fans and no matter what Brazilian club they support, the consensous is that he is the next big thing and the closest talent to Neymar they've seen since Neymar's Santos days.

I know it is early days and he cost a fortune already, but if everything clicks, this type of players are the ones that transform an entire club as a whole and take it to a whole new level.

I believe Cole Palmer has the same aura around him and is capable of incredible things. What I have noticed during the Euros is that it has been a very long time since a Chelsea player benefited from such a good publicity from the media and also from rival fans. At the moment I think it is very hard to find an English fan that does not want him in the starting line-up and here I include even our biggest rivals.