14 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

The problem is that he hasnt "done it all" this season though. As I pointed out in an earlier post, Tammys goals/assists have one us only a single EPL point this season, when he scored the last min equiliser against WBA.

Other than that, none of his goals have been result changing (i.e minus his goals and the outcome would have remained the same).

He has scored 12 goals, and got 1 assist, 5 of his goals have come against lower league opposition, with only 1 coming against a team in the upper part of the league (West Ham).

Tammy hasn't played well under Tuchel no one deny this. The question is how in the hell Werner play all the time while performing poorly game after game. 

The only explanation of why Werner, Ziyech and Havertz have to play all the time because of their fee. I can't find other explanation. 

38 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Tammy hasn't played well under Tuchel no one deny this. The question is how in the hell Werner play all the time while performing poorly game after game. 

The only explanation of why Werner, Ziyech and Havertz have to play all the time because of their fee. I can't find other explanation. 

Tammy hasn't played well all season - not just in the few games he played if tickles reign before he was injured.

werner for all his faults, has scored, assisted or won pens for a lot of goals that have won us points this season. Including those in big games.

Tammys goals/assists by comparison have altered the final result of a single game, winning us 1 point with his goal earlier in the season against wba.

We all want Tammy to succeed and take his chance when it is given, but let's not rewrite history. He has been poor this season, and his goal return of 12 is hugely inflated thanks to 5 goals against barnsley and Luton, and a couple more in big wins in which his goals made no difference.

Tammy on merit and output does not deserve to be in the team automatically. As and when he gets another chance, he need to vastly improve his impact.

(FYI- Werner does too, but overall this season he has been far more impactful and "game changing"  than Tammy)

Edited April 10, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

Obviously we can't know what Tuchel's ultimate intention is here, but if nothing else he's certainly giving Tammy a hard time publicly. Perhaps Tuchel has indeed decided that he doesn't rate him, but that does seem strange considering a) Tammy is quite capable of pressing from the front (certainly moreso than Giroud, whom Tuchel has started five times), b) is the closest thing we currently have to a natural, consistent goalscorer, and c) his alternatives are playing very badly, especially in the areas in which Tammy excels.

 

“I don’t think he’s the top scorer since I arrived. I can only judge what I see. I saw a bright young man in front of me. I saw a guy who is self-confident, who has a lot of talent. But it cannot be that in a period of such good results that suddenly the guys who don’t play are the winners.

“This is not logical to me. He was for some weeks not available, so is it now the moment to do crazy stuff and try things? If you just look at the data, you will say: ‘OK, he’s the top scorer.’ If you look at the data since we are here, it will maybe tell you a different story.”

“I can’t make my decisions based on the personal goals of my players. Kepa [Arrizabalaga] also has the personal goal to go with Spain. It’s good they have these goals but it never influences my decisions. I’m the coach for Chelsea and I have to do what is good for us.

“Tammy had a bit of a rough time. He was twice substituted for tactical reasons at half-time. He could not have the impact he demands from himself and we wish from him.”

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

Tammy hasn't played well all season - not just in the few games he played if tickles reign before he was injured.

werner for all his faults, has scored, assisted or won pens for a lot of goals that have won us points this season. Including those in big games.

Tammys goals/assists by comparison have altered the final result of a single game, winning us 1 point with his goal earlier in the season against wba.

We all want Tammy to succeed and take his chance when it is given, but let's not rewrite history. He has been poor this season, and his goal return of 12 is hugely inflated thanks to 5 goals against barnsley and Luton, and a couple more in big wins in which his goals made no difference.

Tammy on merit and output does not deserve to be in the team automatically. As and when he gets another chance, he need to vastly improve his impact.

(FYI- Werner does too, but overall this season he has been far more impactful and "game changing"  than Tammy)

Werner has played in just over 3,000 across 41 games minutes this season across all competition and scored 10 goals and assisted 11.

 

Tammy has played just over 1,000 minutes across 30 games in all comps and scored 12 and assisted 6. He’s outscored him in a third of the time & got half the assists he does. 
 

Of course he’s going to be much more impactful and game changing when he’s playing almost every minute in most games. Inflated? They both took part in those games until Werners injury. Let’s not forget Werner played the full 90 minutes against that very same Luton side and scored zero, 70 against Morecambe and got one goal in a combined 160 minutes... Tammy played 193 minutes across the three games against Morecambe, Luton & Barnsley and scored 4. Werner had just as much chance to boost his goal scoring record in this games as Tammy, he just couldn’t.

3 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Tammy hasn't played well all season - not just in the few games he played if tickles reign before he was injured.

werner for all his faults, has scored, assisted or won pens for a lot of goals that have won us points this season. Including those in big games.

Tammys goals/assists by comparison have altered the final result of a single game, winning us 1 point with his goal earlier in the season against wba.

We all want Tammy to succeed and take his chance when it is given, but let's not rewrite history. He has been poor this season, and his goal return of 12 is hugely inflated thanks to 5 goals against barnsley and Luton, and a couple more in big wins in which his goals made no difference.

Tammy on merit and output does not deserve to be in the team automatically. As and when he gets another chance, he need to vastly improve his impact.

(FYI- Werner does too, but overall this season he has been far more impactful and "game changing"  than Tammy)

Werner is a poacher who struggle to score. Just the sound of it sound crazy but it is true.

The biggest problem is you can't use him any other way. 

For tammy, even if he doesn't score you can use him to battle cb so our two 10 can play of him or ask him to go deep and let our two 10 push up. So many ways to use tammy, with Werner there is only way and he struggle to do it yet he keep starting. 

1 hour ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Werner has played in just over 3,000 across 41 games minutes this season across all competition and scored 10 goals and assisted 11.

 

Tammy has played just over 1,000 minutes across 30 games in all comps and scored 12 and assisted 6. He’s outscored him in a third of the time & got half the assists he does. 
 

Of course he’s going to be much more impactful and game changing when he’s playing almost every minute in most games. Inflated? They both took part in those games until Werners injury. Let’s not forget Werner played the full 90 minutes against that very same Luton side and scored zero, 70 against Morecambe and got one goal in a combined 160 minutes... Tammy played 193 minutes across the three games against Morecambe, Luton & Barnsley and scored 4. Werner had just as much chance to boost his goal scoring record in this games as Tammy, he just couldn’t.

 

I am not saying Werner has been good enough (let me be clearer, he hasnt been!). I am saying that Tammy has not done enough when he has been given the chance.

Up until his injury, Tammy played 1017 minutes in the EPL, and scored or assisted in 8 games (i.e 127 minutes between a goal or assist). To compare like for like, up until Tamms injury (Before Man utd on 28th Feb), Werner had played 1833 minutes, and scored or assisted in 13 games. (i.e 141 minutes between a goal or assist). For me both of those figures are not good enough.

However, there is a difference in the number of game/result changing goals/assists that each player has got, and the resulting number of points that those goals/assists have won us.

Tammy

-Tammys goals have changed the outcome (win/lose/draw) of just 1 EPL game. That was against WBA when his last min equiliser earned us a point.

- It is also only right to acknowledge that in addition to this 1 outcome changing goal, Tammy also got the assist for the first goal against Burnley.

- He also got the first goal in 4v1 win against Sheffield Utd - both the burnely assist and the Sheff UTD goal can be argued to have changed the games in our favour.

Timo

-Timo in comparison also only has 1 game where his goals have directly impacted the final outcome. This was when his 2 goals earned us a point against Southampton.

- However he also has multiple assists which have won us points.

- For example, in addition to his 2 goals against Southampton, he also had an assist in that same game.

- Timo also got the assist in the 1v0 win against spurs (earning us 3 points)

- He also got 2 assists in the 2v1 win against Sheffield utd (earning us 3 points). 

- In addition, he also got the assist for the opening goal against Brighton, which can be argued changed the game in our favour as we went on to win.

When all is said and done, Tammys goals or assists have directly won us 1 point (against West Brom). Timos goals/assists have won us 7 points (against Southampton, Spurs and Sheffield UTF), an 600% increase in points won.

Again, lets not beat around the bush both have not been good enough, but the lack of impact Tammy has had, and his inability to regularly score or assist in game/result changing goals this season, mean that I understand why he is not being put straight back into the team now he is back from injury.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

Werner is a poacher who struggle to score. Just the sound of it sound crazy but it is true.

The biggest problem is you can't use him any other way. 

For tammy, even if he doesn't score you can use him to battle cb so our two 10 can play of him or ask him to go deep and let our two 10 push up. So many ways to use tammy, with Werner there is only way and he struggle to do it yet he keep starting. 

Out of interest, what examples have there been this season of when Tammy won a battle with a CB?  I am sure there must have been a time, but I cant for the life of me remember an instance. Please do jog my memory.

4 hours ago, PloKoon13 said:

Obviously we can't know what Tuchel's ultimate intention is here, but if nothing else he's certainly giving Tammy a hard time publicly. Perhaps Tuchel has indeed decided that he doesn't rate him, but that does seem strange considering a) Tammy is quite capable of pressing from the front (certainly moreso than Giroud, whom Tuchel has started five times), b) is the closest thing we currently have to a natural, consistent goalscorer, and c) his alternatives are playing very badly, especially in the areas in which Tammy excels.

 

 

 

He is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Many on here are frustrated at his apparent tinkering and lack of settled team - with him regularly taking out players who have been winning us games, to the detriment of the performances (see Silva/Rudi/Christensen)

Yet, many on here are also exasperated that Tuchel has not played Tammy in the 1 or 2 games that he has been back from injury. 1 of those games was a Champions league quarter final, which lets be honest, is really not the time/place to be messing around and playing players who are not match fit.

As can be seen by my other messages on this thread, I hope that Tammy comes good and takes his chance as/when/if it comes...but his performances this season have not been good enough to justify Tuchel putting him straight back into the team, at the business end of the season, following a lengthy injury, and I fully understand and agree with Tuchels position on this.

I don’t think anyone is saying here that Tammy is a world class striker, but given the rotation that Tuchel is doing and that Werner in the last few games has been a shadow, Tammy should be given the nod so that Werner can get a well-deserved rest. I sincerely prefer Werner, he always puts a shift and does not hide, plus he offers more to the attacking front. But, I think that Tammy needs to get games given that Werner is at the moment not even capable of being involved in the attack and Tammy has always got a goal in him.

I don't think Tammy is really challenging Werner for a spot (that'd be Pulisic) but Giroud, who doesn't get a whole lot of minutes himself, and Havertz. The latter had a rough start (imho totally excused mostly by being that young, coming from a foreign league while not having any real pre-season + Covid infection + inexperienced manager) but starts to play better and has by far the most potential of those three.

 

edit: to clarify, I don't think he has no place in this team. Of course not but mostly his place in the squad is redundant with Giroud. So you basically have on of those "too much" within the current system. If one of those two really has the potential to build a front line around them I'd question. Giroud is too old and Tammy prolly to risky. As others have said, if he's ok with a back-up role / role-player...eh...role than I'd be happy to see him inthe squad. But eventually it'd be more important for him to play as much as possible which isn't likely in a club as big and  ambitious as Chelsea.

Edited April 11, 20215 yr by weetee

On 10/04/2021 at 19:41, nonotnowjim said:

Out of interest, what examples have there been this season of when Tammy won a battle with a CB?  I am sure there must have been a time, but I cant for the life of me remember an instance. Please do jog my memory.

Tammy hasn't played for a long time, i really don't remember against whom but tammy played show how a no 9 play against cb, battle aerially, plau with back to goal. I remembered saying that I don't see Werner doing that. 

Think he might be gone in the summer unfortunately. It's clear Tuchel prefers Havertz up front and in my view that the sensible decision at this point too.

But Abraham have made it clear previously that he's not interested in staying unless he's first choice. He's also reportedly refused to sign a contract extension earlier because we have been looking at reinforcements in terms of Haaland and Lukaku. If that impressed I am unimpressed with that kind of mentality as nothing is given to you here at this club and to fight for your spot should be what's expected.

But if he's not interested in being second choice right now then it's probably best for all parties if he does leave.

He is not even second choice, is he? There’s no reason why he is not been given chances in the rotation Tuchel is doing, we need to rest players, Giroud and Tammy are being overlooked at the moment.

13 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Think he might be gone in the summer unfortunately. It's clear Tuchel prefers Havertz up front and in my view that the sensible decision at this point too.

But Abraham have made it clear previously that he's not interested in staying unless he's first choice. He's also reportedly refused to sign a contract extension earlier because we have been looking at reinforcements in terms of Haaland and Lukaku. If that impressed I am unimpressed with that kind of mentality as nothing is given to you here at this club and to fight for your spot should be what's expected.

But if he's not interested in being second choice right now then it's probably best for all parties if he does leave.

 

24 minutes ago, RMH said:

He is not even second choice, is he? There’s no reason why he is not been given chances in the rotation Tuchel is doing, we need to rest players, Giroud and Tammy are being overlooked at the moment.

 

I think he would be if he's here in August.

He's been a bit unfortunate lately. First he had two PL-performances far below par where he got hooked at half time in both. Then he got injured and we went on to beat Atletico away, Liverpool away, Everton at home and Atletico at home again during that time. So my conclusion is that the players involved in that run there earned Tuchel's trust while Abraham probably hasn't yet.

So bad timing with the injury, made worse by the fact that it came off a couple of bad performances on the trot and then his replacements went on to win us some brilliant games while he was out.

So I can understand where Tuchel is coming from. 

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

I think he would be if he's here in August.

He's been a bit unfortunate lately. First he had two PL-performances far below par where he got hooked at half time in both. Then he got injured and we went on to beat Atletico away, Liverpool away, Everton at home and Atletico at home again during that time. So my conclusion is that the players involved in that run there earned Tuchel's trust while Abraham probably hasn't yet.

So bad timing with the injury, made worse by the fact that it came off a couple of bad performances on the trot and then his replacements went on to win us some brilliant games while he was out.

So I can understand where Tuchel is coming from. 

What you say sounds reasonable but I don’t buy it. Jorginho lost us West Brom and he’s still in the team. The strikers drew against Leeds and Sheffield, and lost to West Brom. And he still doesn’t get a run. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to use him as a second striker and give Werner or Havertz some rest. And I’m not Tammy’s biggest fan.

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

I think he would be if he's here in August.

He's been a bit unfortunate lately. First he had two PL-performances far below par where he got hooked at half time in both. Then he got injured and we went on to beat Atletico away, Liverpool away, Everton at home and Atletico at home again during that time. So my conclusion is that the players involved in that run there earned Tuchel's trust while Abraham probably hasn't yet.

So bad timing with the injury, made worse by the fact that it came off a couple of bad performances on the trot and then his replacements went on to win us some brilliant games while he was out.

So I can understand where Tuchel is coming from. 

Dont think he would be 2nd choice then either.

At the moment Kai, Werner and Giroud are all ahead of him, making him 4th choice at best and that is assuming that if all 3 of them were out that TT would not chose to deploy Pulisic or Mount as a false 9 before bringing Tammy in.

Even if Giroud leaves sounds like we either get Aguero or someone else who would also be ahead of Tammy.

End of the day I think if TT stays Tammy goes for a Tomori size fee if we can find a buyer, though I expect a side like Villa, Wolves or Everton veing willing to take him on.

I literally have the same feelings to what I did when Tomori disappeared from the team. Did want his minutes to completely plummet? No. Am I losing sleep over it? Equally no.

And it's not just Tuchel, Lampard wasn't that convinced by him either, his selection patterns after the first few months clearly demonstrated that. When it came to the crunch last season he turned to Oli and was picking Werner over him (when it was one or the other and Timo wasn't put on the left) until the German started struggling.

33 minutes ago, Argo said:

And it's not just Tuchel, Lampard wasn't that convinced by him either, his selection patterns after the first few months clearly demonstrated that. 

You get the impression that Abraham is just not a "coach's player", the guy who goes on and does exactly as you asked whether he plays 9mins or 90.

When the other young players are Mount, James, Gilmour etc that stands out like a sore thumb. 

He makes the grade for being our third striker but he surely won't accept that role.

Not good enough. Playing him will cost us top 4.

14 hours ago, Argo said:

I literally have the same feelings to what I did when Tomori disappeared from the team. Did want his minutes to completely plummet? No. Am I losing sleep over it? Equally no.

And it's not just Tuchel, Lampard wasn't that convinced by him either, his selection patterns after the first few months clearly demonstrated that. When it came to the crunch last season he turned to Oli and was picking Werner over him (when it was one or the other and Timo wasn't put on the left) until the German started struggling.

To be fair, that was Tammy's first PL season and he carried us till January or so and got burned out and injured and that's the main reason why Giroud was awakened once again at that time... But yes this season even Lampard wasn't relying on him as much.

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

To be fair, that was Tammy's first PL season and he carried us till January or so and got burned out and injured and that's the main reason why Giroud was awakened once again at that time... But yes this season even Lampard wasn't relying on him as much.

Basically since covid hit us and fans have been absent, Tammy has struggled to score, thats why he should still be in the squad next season and part of the set up, i think he's one of those players who needs loving, Tommy seems like a strict teacher, but he may soften up when he hears the fans reaction to Abraham coming on the pitch.

20 hours ago, Sindre said:

Think he might be gone in the summer unfortunately. It's clear Tuchel prefers Havertz up front and in my view that the sensible decision at this point too.

But Abraham have made it clear previously that he's not interested in staying unless he's first choice. He's also reportedly refused to sign a contract extension earlier because we have been looking at reinforcements in terms of Haaland and Lukaku. If that impressed I am unimpressed with that kind of mentality as nothing is given to you here at this club and to fight for your spot should be what's expected.

But if he's not interested in being second choice right now then it's probably best for all parties if he does leave.

I dont think it's a bad thing that he wants to play. All young players should want to play and prove themselves so if he chooses to leave to do that, it isnt a sign of weakness. Sancho did it and flourished at Dortmund, Lingard has done it this season (not young anymore, but needed to get game time). Leaving a "big" club to go play shows a better mentality to me than a Winston Bogarde, cash the cheque each week type of player. 

19 minutes ago, Coxy15 said:

Leaving a "big" club to go play shows a better mentality to me than a Winston Bogarde, cash the cheque each week type of player. 

I agree with your post, I’d just like to suggest we can now update this reference to Danny Drinkwater nowadays. 

5 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

I agree with your post, I’d just like to suggest we can now update this reference to Danny Drinkwater nowadays. 

In fairness Drinkwater has went out on loan. Just that he has been total sh*t wherever he goes.