24 minutes ago, Argo said:

Because I don't believe he has the ball progressing skills required in that position at this level. At West Ham under Moyes it's not a problem but in England it shows as he's often hiding behind the opposition when Stones and Maguire are trying to play out.

Also I'm a bit concerned about the excuses he's been making whenever England have f**ked up. After the nations league demotion he defended four games of zero goals by saying it's fine because they score loads in training (imagine this thread had Jorgi came out and said similar after Newcastle to defend the recent performances) and defended the France elimination by practically saying "oh well atleast we stopped Mbappe" (imagine if Jorginho said "oh well we stopped Saka" after Arsenal). Compare that to Reece and his first words to Koulibaly, night and day.

I never said he doesn't have his plus points but with how important ball progression is in his position and compared to the type of players in the teams we hope to compete with (Rodri, Partey, Bruno G, Thiago, likely Enzo and even Kalvin Phillips) he falls short in my opinion.

I'll be delighted if I've got it wrong and will probably spend the early period trying to convince myself I am when we sign him (it's inevitable in my opinion) but I can't see it and never have.

Correct me if I am wrong but Rice plays & will play a different role here to Partey, the comparison should be with Xhaka. Same with Bruno Guimaraes who has Longstaff playing his role. Thiago also Fabinho next to him. 

29 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Correct me if I am wrong but Rice plays & will play a different role here to Partey, the comparison should be with Xhaka. Same with Bruno Guimaraes who has Longstaff playing his role. Thiago also Fabinho next to him. 

Partey is more the deeper player with Xhaka getting the freedom these days. And I'm pretty sure Guimaraes has been the deeper playmaker at Newcastle whenever I've seen them.

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Because I don't believe he has the ball progressing skills required in that position at this level. At West Ham under Moyes it's not a problem but in England it shows as he's often hiding behind the opposition when Stones and Maguire are trying to play out.

Also I'm a bit concerned about the excuses he's been making whenever England have f**ked up. After the nations league demotion he defended four games of zero goals by saying it's fine because they score loads in training (imagine this thread had Jorgi came out and said similar after Newcastle to defend the recent performances) and defended the France elimination by practically saying "oh well atleast we stopped Mbappe" (imagine if Jorginho said "oh well we stopped Saka" after Arsenal). Compare that to Reece and his first words to Koulibaly, night and day.

I never said he doesn't have his plus points but with how important ball progression is in his position and compared to the type of players in the teams we hope to compete with (Rodri, Partey, Bruno G, Thiago, likely Enzo and even Kalvin Phillips) he falls short in my opinion.

I'll be delighted if I've got it wrong and will probably spend the early period trying to convince myself I am when we sign him (it's inevitable in my opinion) but I can't see it and never have.

I wouldn’t confuse international football with club. They might as well be two separate games. I think we all have to admit despite our CL success the team has to change. We are seeing Chelsea teams bullied,something we haven’t seen for maybe 25 years. It’s interesting you choose Rodri and Partey as examples both come from a background under a pragmatic manager similarly to what Rice has played. The point being players can change under differing conditions. Remember Partey is part of the set up you didn’t rate! I see in Rice a player of similar ilk to Keane when he first signed for Forest. Versatile, box to box , can do a job at DM plus can also play as central defender. Add to this there is no settling in period for the Premier League required. Placed alongside a good technician and in a better team he would be a good acquisition…wether it’s us? Who knows! Peps call-out of Phillips may see him on the move soon?

Rice next to a technical player good in the build up makes a lot of sense tbh. 

On 24/12/2022 at 17:01, Sconnie Blue said:

Rice next to a technical player good in the build up makes a lot of sense tbh. 

If Rice is bound to sign for us and if we don't finish top 4 with him, it will be safe to say that he ruined us for years to come, can't even blame his partner since Kovacic is actually a good technical player that is one of the best when it comes to carrying the ball forward, in the whole league.

The last player that had such a vanilla DM role and did it well was Matic and he was signed for 20m, and then sold to Man United for 40m after winning the PL title so it was a win of a transfer at all levels. But we're going to sign Rice for 70m or so and thus a top 4 is the bare minimum, if we don't reach that you can start comparing Rice to Bakayoko as it would actually be legit.

Edited December 26, 20223 yr by Gol15

On 25/12/2022 at 00:01, Sconnie Blue said:

Rice next to a technical player good in the build up makes a lot of sense tbh.

City and arsenal build up with one their fb invert inside as dm. 

I watched Spain build up and Busquets didn't move at all form the middle. It was the two fb job to drift middle and started the attack. There are a lot of ways to do build up. 

Been offered a new contract by the club. Not at all a surprise.

54 minutes ago, OriginalS said:

Been offered a new contract by the club. Not at all a surprise.

I do like Jorginho but felt this summer would be the right time to move him on. Maybe the club feel that losing him and Kante in the same window was not the best idea. 

1 hour ago, OriginalS said:

Been offered a new contract by the club. Not at all a surprise.

Like it or lump it Jorgi is our most reliable midfielder, can't rely on Kante or Kovacic because of injuries and the rest aren't at his level.

In an ideal world we sign Enzo and he happily remains as backup as we will still have no one else to play that role with the possible exception of Hall but I'm not sure he'd want that which is fair enough.

2 hours ago, OriginalS said:

Been offered a new contract by the club. Not at all a surprise.

With the Kante, Kovacic, James, Chilwell, Fofana, Broja injuries no it isn't a surprise at all. Unfortunately it's a necessity in the circumstances.

That certainly doesn't make it a good thing though. 

As for Jorginho being our most reliable player because he never gets injured, if he doesn't put his body on the line, contest 50-50 tackles, compete for aerial duels, or run with the ball at his feet, it's pretty obvious why he doesn't pick up injuries.

We want you to stay, we want you to staaayyyyy, @Gol15, we want you to stay!

39 minutes ago, just said:

With the Kante, Kovacic, James, Chilwell, Fofana, Broja injuries no it isn't a surprise at all. Unfortunately it's a necessity in the circumstances.

That certainly doesn't make it a good thing though. 

As for Jorginho being our most reliable player because he never gets injured, if he doesn't put his body on the line, contest 50-50 tackles, compete for aerial duels, or run with the ball at his feet, it's pretty obvious why he doesn't pick up injuries.

Potter likes him a lot so I think he would have had an offer anyways.

And while the Premier League doesn't differentiate between 50-50s or "normal" tackles he made more tackles for us than any other midfielder last season mate. I like statistics as it gives an unbiased picture wheter it's good or it's bad so I just wanted to mention that. Because he certainly tackles.

 

Think the Newcastle links were bollocks. Probably going back to Italy. 

1 hour ago, OriginalS said:

Potter likes him a lot so I think he would have had an offer anyways.

And while the Premier League doesn't differentiate between 50-50s or "normal" tackles he made more tackles for us than any other midfielder last season mate. I like statistics as it gives an unbiased picture wheter it's good or it's bad so I just wanted to mention that. Because he certainly tackles.

 

He had more than 10 ball recoveries last match, more than any other player and also most progressive passes and 91% pass accuracy.

But he does get "dribbled passed" more than your average midfielder, so while he does position himself well he's walking the tight rope and not your ideal player to have in a 1v1.

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

We want you to stay, we want you to staaayyyyy, @Gol15, we want you to stay!

4 hours ago, drjonesy1994 said:

I do like Jorginho but felt this summer would be the right time to move him on. Maybe the club feel that losing him and Kante in the same window was not the best idea. 

It would be a huge surprise if he doesn't leave in the summer. I think his mind has been set to leave ever since Tuchel got sacked.

I'm indifferent. 

If we sell him, that's fine so long as he is properly upgraded on. If he stays, a good rotation option to have. 

2 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Think the Newcastle links were bollocks. Probably going back to Italy. 

Reverse psychology at play Sconnie. We need to leak stories that we may be interested in Eric Dire. Tottenham might decide to extend his contract.

Edited December 29, 20223 yr by just

13 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Think the Newcastle links were bollocks. Probably going back to Italy. 

There is 0 chance he is moving to Newcastle. 

It is crazy to say for player who won "best player in Europe". But even when he was in his prime, only few select team can use him. 

 

Edited December 30, 20223 yr by Bob stark

I just saw this uefa player of the year list and let me be honest jorgi being in this list is just mind-boggling. 

 

If I have to apply the standard that I use for any of these player to jorgi then I will turn into @just

https://www.football365.com/news/opinion-enzo-fernandez-jorginho-chaos-stability-chelsea-transfer-midfield-tide

Excellent take IMO.

Enzo will almost certainly be an upgrade. But if we signs him as I hope we do he will still need to prove himself in England before I make any conclusions.

But if we land Enzo now in January and then Rice in the summer that's brilliant business as far as i'm concerned.

5 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I just saw this uefa player of the year list and let me be honest jorgi being in this list is just mind-boggling. 

 

If I have to apply the standard that I use for any of these player to jorgi then I will turn into @just

Modric got it due to Croatia reaching the World Cup final mainly, Van Dijk because of the CL win with Liverpool.

So that standard is the same since Jorginho won it due to Italy winning the Euro + we winning the CL, fair game.

I would resign Jorginho and Kanté on deals that suit the club's best interests. Say what you want about the players, but they have continued to bring success to this club. Fun fact since Jorginho signed we have never finished out of the top 4, and have reached at least one cup final in each season. 

Coincidence? Perhaps, I personally think he brings more to the table than just his playing skill set. He's the vice captain for a reason and despite his obvious limitations he also has very visible strengths to his game. I personally think it's a mistake to let him go for free. 

Resigning Jorginho and Kanté doesn't mean we can't sign another world class midfielder. In an ideal world if we're playing a back 4 we will need at least 5/6 midfielders of similar quality to protect us against injuries. RLC imo isn't cut out for this level. Whilst Mount and Gallagher can play as CMs and AMs. I would rather see those two as the player playing further forward in a midfield 3. Meaning we need another CM and another DM. Perhaps we sign a top tier mid that has the qualities to play as both a DM and CM. Thus allowing Jorginho, Kanté and Kova to be rotated with them. 

Add Rice or Enzo to our current midfielders and we look solid. We just need to shift some of the squad players imo that aren't at the same level.