20 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I think a lot of people who say "play the kids!!" are not actually prepared for Chelsea to come 8th or 9th next year. Which is what would probably happen. 

When the phrase, play the kids and the fans will be patient is used. The assumption is that Chelsea will go far in some cups and finish 5th or 6th. 

I wouldn't mind a top 8th finish where CHO,RLC,Ampadu and now Pulisic would establish themselves and start a new dynasty. Now we are 6th with no hope for the future.

24 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I wouldn't mind a top 8th finish where CHO,RLC,Ampadu and now Pulisic would establish themselves and start a new dynasty. Now we are 6th with no hope for the future.

Agreed. Compared with our current situation it would be much more enjoyable watching a handful of young players come through the ranks, even if it means finishing outside top 6 for a bit. 

3 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I think a lot of people who say "play the kids!!" are not actually prepared for Chelsea to come 8th or 9th next year. Which is what would probably happen. 

When the phrase, play the kids and the fans will be patient is used. The assumption is that Chelsea will go far in some cups and finish 5th or 6th. 

If this season we were 8th or 9th but I could see progress I’d be happy, but we’re sh*t!

1 hour ago, bisright1 said:

I think a lot of people who say "play the kids!!" are not actually prepared for Chelsea to come 8th or 9th next year. Which is what would probably happen. 

When the phrase, play the kids and the fans will be patient is used. The assumption is that Chelsea will go far in some cups and finish 5th or 6th. 

As you can see from multiple answers, TRUE fans WOULD be okay with it. It is only the JCL's that might not be happy and to be honest, couldn't give a toss about them - we could do with a few less glory hunters.

 

Christensen is already good enough to replace Luiz, if he gets fed up with the amount of minutes he is playing then a host of top clubs would want him then we will have to spend 60m on a risky signing. RLC is better than Barkley and Kovacic, CHO is better than Pedro and Willian, these 3 players are already good enough for the first team. 

32 minutes ago, Nibs said:

As you can see from multiple answers, TRUE fans WOULD be okay with it. It is only the JCL's that might not be happy and to be honest, couldn't give a toss about them - we could do with a few less glory hunters.

 

You could say the same last season, many in here were happy to not get CL if we changed to a more attacking football philosophy. Were they the TRUE fans, not glory hunters, that now want Sarri sacked? I can't be bothered to go and look back to the "Conte out" posts. For what is worth, I was happy to have let Conte go on another season if backed, and now I am happy to give Sarri some slack. I think the glory hunters are those that as soon as things go wrong and we don't fight for trophies ask for the head of the coach, and it's always  under the excuse of "I'd be happy to end 8 or 9 if... ". The reality is that if we played the youth and go trashed by Bournemouth or City they would be asking for the coach's head anyway.

Sometimes I wish we could sack some fans rather than the coaches.

6 minutes ago, RMH said:

You could say the same last season, many in here were happy to not get CL if we changed to a more attacking football philosophy. Were they the TRUE fans, not glory hunters, that now want Sarri sacked? I can't be bothered to go and look back to the "Conte out" posts. For what is worth, I was happy to have let Conte go on another season if backed, and now I am happy to give Sarri some slack. I think the glory hunters are those that as soon as things go wrong and we don't fight for trophies ask for the head of the coach, and it's always  under the excuse of "I'd be happy to end 8 or 9 if... ". The reality is that if we played the youth and go trashed by Bournemouth or City they would be asking for the coach's head anyway.

Sometimes I wish we could sack some fans rather than the coaches.

Are you saying we are playing a more attacking style of football? Because from where I'm standing, we're the least attacking team out of the top 6, maybe even top half of the table.

I stand by what I said earlier, I'm not here for the trophies or the glory. I just want the players to care about the badge they wear. To give 100% every match, regardless of the result. I want them to wake up every morning happy with the fact they play for Chelsea and not dreaming of the day they might be wearing all white or red and blue stripes!

This current group of players minus one of two can f**k off, along with Sarri for all I care. They're not Chelsea, they're mercenaries.

15 minutes ago, RMH said:

You could say the same last season, many in here were happy to not get CL if we changed to a more attacking football philosophy. Were they the TRUE fans, not glory hunters, that now want Sarri sacked? I can't be bothered to go and look back to the "Conte out" posts. For what is worth, I was happy to have let Conte go on another season if backed, and now I am happy to give Sarri some slack. I think the glory hunters are those that as soon as things go wrong and we don't fight for trophies ask for the head of the coach, and it's always  under the excuse of "I'd be happy to end 8 or 9 if... ". The reality is that if we played the youth and go trashed by Bournemouth or City they would be asking for the coach's head anyway.

Sometimes I wish we could sack some fans rather than the coaches.

Bit confused by that.

From my own point of view, I honestly wouldn't be fussed if we weren't picking up silverware and playing CL football if I could see development and the integration of the younger players who deserve a chance. We would expect mistakes along the way and some bad results as they were learning and it could well be that after trying them, some aren't actually good enough but we won't know until we throw them in. Not saying put them ALL in on mass but lets start bleeding a few. What we already know is some of the senior squad players are not good enough and yet they remain.  To finish 5th, 6th, whatever and end up with nothing (if we don't win the Europa), whilst largely playing the same old faces who keep failing, THAT is what pisses me off more than anything.

 

1 hour ago, Nibs said:

As you can see from multiple answers, TRUE fans WOULD be okay with it. It is only the JCL's that might not be happy and to be honest, couldn't give a toss about them - we could do with a few less glory hunters.

 

Exactly.  If we make mistakes and have inconsistent results, I'd rather we be doing it with youth players who will learn and benefit from the experience.

Edited March 20, 20197 yr by Boston Blue

38 minutes ago, RMH said:

You could say the same last season, many in here were happy to not get CL if we changed to a more attacking football philosophy. Were they the TRUE fans, not glory hunters, that now want Sarri sacked? I can't be bothered to go and look back to the "Conte out" posts. For what is worth, I was happy to have let Conte go on another season if backed, and now I am happy to give Sarri some slack. I think the glory hunters are those that as soon as things go wrong and we don't fight for trophies ask for the head of the coach, and it's always  under the excuse of "I'd be happy to end 8 or 9 if... ". The reality is that if we played the youth and go trashed by Bournemouth or City they would be asking for the coach's head anyway.

Sometimes I wish we could sack some fans rather than the coaches.

I think the difference here is that Conte's attitude changed and he became a toxic force at the club.  I think we'd have been better off letting him go earlier so that the negativity wasn't allowed to fester.

How many of you saying "play the kids" would be ok not just with 8th place but with the prospect of a relegation battle? I'm not saying that would happen but it's a distinct possibility. Can someone write out a team of our kids that could come 8th in the league, is better than the likes of Palace, Watford, Leicester et al? Things have changed since Hansen's famous "you can't win the league with kids." The premier league is more competitive than ever - it just put 4 teams in the CL quarter-finals. There are really only a couple of shxt teams, and most have some really good players. I suspect the conversion rate of success at youth-to-senior level is probably lower than we think. If anyone has any facts or figures on that, i'd be interested to know.  

Edited March 20, 20197 yr by Dean

3 hours ago, wallosh said:

When Conte came here, before he signed a contract with us, am sure the board gave him some targets which probably include: (1) Winning the league or at least challenging to win the league every season. (2) Out of all 4 competitions we will be playing in, winning at least one every season. (3) Giving youth a chance in the first team.
Before Conte signed the contract, he must have asked for the board to back him in the transfer window so he can achieve the first 2 targets considering how average our squad was at that time, and by signing the contract, it shows the board assured him of there backing. Though the fact that we didn't really make much statement signings (apart from Kante) in Conte's first season shows the board gave him that first season just to see who is worth keeping and who should be sold out as we start rebuilding in Conte's second season. Weirdly Conte isn't the type that take any competition lightly, he brought some of our players on loan and pushed them to their limits, he instilled his winning mentality into this players and by the end of the season he exceeded the board's target in that first season by winning the league.
In his first season he achieved one of the most difficult targets the board gave him to show the board he is the right person to take the club forward, Conte in turn felt the board will be more than happy to also fulfill there promise to back him in the transfer window with his targets to improve the team. But during the transfer window, he found out negative our board can be after achieving a major success. He quickly realized the board wasn't as ambitious as he thought initially.
Now, if I were Conte, I would have quit immediately right there on a high, because there is no way that squad would compete in the champions league and still challenge for the title. But Conte, being a fan favourite at that time isn't a quitter, he loved the fans and his new environment. He tried to get best out of the average squad he has but by mid season it was obvious the squad ain't good enough to compete in the champions league and also challenge again for the EPL title, he was disappointed with how bad the season was going, he knew from experience that at the end of the day as a manager people won't judge him based on the average squad he has, he will simply be judge with results and will be made a scapegoat while the main culprit (the board) will be exempted from blame. He lost motivation, and that lack of motivation affected the players as well, but still he managed to motivate them for the important games against Barcelona and the FA Cup final against United.
Now my point is, I have never seen a successful football club with a good manager and a sh*t board. Most football clubs are successful because the manager share the same ambition with board and they both work together towards achieving there goals.
Conte is a human being like any one of us, and we all react negatively in different ways when we are being betrayed publicly by someone we trust. So I don't blame for his change of attitude in his second season because some of us would have done worse if we were in his shoes. I actually have lots of respect for him for what he achieved in just two seasons here and he is up there among my favourite mangers since I started watching Chelsea.

I mostly agree.  Although the board would have/should have known that Conte quit Juve when he (allegedly) didn't like the transfer situation.  It was presumably a topic of conversation for the interview.   What I do agree with is that something soured Conte's attitude to make him go from one of the more enthusiastic managers to one of the most passive in a short amount of time.  That was likely things that were promised to him and expectations that were not met.

What I can't understand is that we have an owner and board that consistently seek out the best managers, yet do not back them to put them in position to be successful.  If you want puppets and "yes" men, then hire them.  We hire strong personalities who end up with huge expectations on their shoulders, then we give them players like Drinkwater and Zappacosta and think they will turn these guys into world class players.  

We won't fall down to 8th if we start playing CHO, James etc but it will be an initial teething process and the jury's still out on whether the average fan will be willing to be patient in that period.

It's easy to say you would before the reality hits.

I dont think it's a case of playing the kids just for the sake of it. The players people are generally pining for are CHO, RLC, and to a lesser extent Christiansen, James, and Abraham. 

Now are those 5 any worse than Pedro, Willian, Barkley, Kovacic, Luiz, Higuian, Giroud, Azpilicueta( in this current system).

In a lot of those cases I think the younger players are at least on par, and in a few of the cases, I think that they could easily surpass the senior players, given some experience. 

4 hours ago, venom2011 said:

Failure depends on your objectives - game-by-game, short-term, and long-term. It is not a failure for Huddersfield to lose to us. I don't consider it failure to lose to the best team in Europe on a lottery when we've been the better team. I was immensely proud of that performance and it showed me that even with some massive cracks in the foundation we've still got something to build upon.

I find it very strange that you're using him adjusting his style to beat the best in Europe as a negative against the way he manages the team. He has adjusted his style more the "one time" by the way. And in any case one result does not mean the quality of the team is fine. We won by scoring two goals, goals that we barely have in this team so why would anyone expect us to continue scoring? As I've said before, I agree that if we had a more defensive manager then we may have had a few better scorelines over the season, but ultimately we would have achieved nothing for our long term goals. And Hazard would without a doubt leave. No counter-attacking team would ever be successful without goals. We would have just seen last season's Conte again.

A top 4 team in this league needs to score on average, 65-70 goals in a season. Even in a season where Hazard and Pedro are scoring well we just don't have the goals to compete.

I'll adapt that quote for you to be more relevant: If you have a philosophy and are not given the time and scope to implement it, what's the point?

Any loss is a failure by definition. It's not embarrassing for Huddersfield to lose to us, just like it's not a tragedy if we lose to City, because more often than not better side prevails. 

I can also understand you being proud of the performance in the final, yes, it's a lottery and we were unlucky in the end. But one match where players were highly motivated for obvious reasons and did their best doesn't change the fact that for the good chunk of the season we've been struggling and didn't come even remotely close to our best. Losing to City is understandable. Losing to Wolves, Leicester, Bournemouth and Everton isn't. Winning one game all season when coming from behind is absolutely shocking stat for any manager, let alone one at a top club. 

Our long term goals are tightly connected to qualifying for the CL, because missing out on it season after season isn't going to improve our future, believe me. Hazard was always going to leave anyway, but I doubt Sarri's struggles would somehow convince him to stay, if there was a chance of that happening. He clearly is struggling with Sarriball, just like the rest of team, so I don't see any logic behind your statement.

The lack of scoring is a serious problem, but the real trouble with Sarriball is not creating goalscoring opportunities rather than not being clinical enough in front of the goal. Experience tells us, the more chances you create, the more goals you score, sooner or later quantity will lead to quality. Sarri's Chelsea creates much too little, and most of them are half chances, so with our lack of proper goalscorers it becomes even a bigger problem.

Having a philosophy isn't enough to retain a job in one of Europe's top clubs. You have to be able to motivate the players, properly train them and find the right way to get the best out of the group you've got and you're not going to get a lot of time. Unless you already have a winning resume you need to prove to your employer in some way that you're the right man for the job, and soon. The stakes at CFC are too high and if you can't achieve a minimum task set for your first season, you're history.

In that sense someone like Sarri is probably better off at some midtable club, where expectations and pressure to succeed are much lower and time to work on and develop your ideas is longer.

Edited March 20, 20197 yr by abramovich

1 hour ago, Nibs said:

Bit confused by that.

From my own point of view, I honestly wouldn't be fussed if we weren't picking up silverware and playing CL football if I could see development and the integration of the younger players who deserve a chance. We would expect mistakes along the way and some bad results as they were learning and it could well be that after trying them, some aren't actually good enough but we won't know until we throw them in. Not saying put them ALL in on mass but lets start bleeding a few. What we already know is some of the senior squad players are not good enough and yet they remain.  To finish 5th, 6th, whatever and end up with nothing (if we don't win the Europa), whilst largely playing the same old faces who keep failing, THAT is what pisses me off more than anything.

 

Completely agree. With the transfer ban, we need to be focusing on building for 2020 and beyond. I think it would be a miracle to make Top 4 next season. Giving minutes to ageing and/or underperforming players like Luiz, Willian, Pedro and Alonso (if in a back 4), is just taking away precious developmental opportunities from players that are much younger, hungrier, and not that far off ability wise. Dare I say it, Azpi could find himself in that category too if he keeps up his current form. 

If we genuinely test our youngsters next season and end up finishing 10th or 11th, I would be 100% be ok with it. In fact, I would be really encouraged by a 10th place finish if we could properly bed in Christensen, CHO, RLC, while also confirming that Ampadu, Tammy, James and Mount belong in the squad with potential to improve.  The doubters here can hold me to that. We are at a crossroads and we need to be thinking about the future now. 

 

1 hour ago, Old Shaggy said:

Are you saying we are playing a more attacking style of football? Because from where I'm standing?, we're the least attacking team out of the top 6, maybe even top half of the table.??

I stand by what I said earlier, I'm not here ?for the trophies or the glory. I just ??w?ant the players to care about the badge they wear. To give 100% every match, regardless of the result. I want them to wake up every morning happy with the fact they play for Chelsea and not dreaming of the day they might be wearing all white or red and blue stripes!

This current group of players minus one of two can f**k off, along with Sarri for all I care. They're not Chelsea, they're mercenaries.

Well we've created more chances than most, created more big chances than most, taken more shots inside the area than most, more through balls than anyone and hit the woodwork the most. I don't know what more you need to see than that. If the league was calculated on statistical index we'd probably be second. What we are sorely missing are the players to make all of these stats mean something. Against Everton Jorginho played a delightful chip to put Higuain clean through.....it came to nothing and Jorginho will still be blamed for having no assists.

 

 

9 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

Well we've created more chances than most, created more big chances than most, taken more shots inside the area than most, more through balls than anyone and hit the woodwork the most. I don't know what more you need to see than that. If the league was calculated on statistical index we'd probably be second. What we are sorely missing are the players to make all of these stats mean something. Against Everton Jorginho played a delightful chip to put Higuain clean through.....it came to nothing and Jorginho will still be blamed for having no assists.

 

 

But the league isn’t calculated on statistics and I know what my eyes tell me, we play slow possession football with no end product! 

It’s the worst I’ve consistently watched in years, I lose interest in games long before we’ve invariably been beaten, because it’s dull! 

Anyone hear could set a group of top professionals up to keep the ball & do nothing with it & that's what we’re watching.

34 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Any loss is a failure by definition. It's not embarrassing for Huddersfield to lose to us, just like it's not a tragedy if we lose to City, because more often than not better side preva?ils. 

I can also understand you being proud of the performance in the final, yes, it's a lottery and we were unlucky in the end. But one match where players were highly motivated for obvious reasons and did their best doesn't change the fact that for the good chunk of the season we've been struggling and didn't come even remotely close to our best. Losing to City is understandable. Losing to Wolves, Leicester, Bournemouth and Everton isn't. Winning one game all season when coming from behind is absolutely shocking stat for any manager, let alone one at a top club. 

Our long term goals are tightly connected to qualifying for the CL, because missing out on it season after season isn't going to improve our future, believe me. Hazard was always going to leave anyway, but I doubt Sarri's struggles would somehow convince him to stay, if there was a chance of that happening. He clearly is struggling with Sarriball, just like the rest of team, so I don't see any logic behind your statement.?

The lack of scoring is a serious problem, but the real trouble with Sarriball is not creating goalscoring opportunities rather than not being clinical enough in front of the goa?l. Experience tells us, the more chances you create, the more goals you? score, sooner o?r later qua?ntity will lead to quality. Sarri's Chelsea creates much too little, and most of them are half chances, so with our lack of proper goalscorers it becomes even a bigger problem.??

Having a philosophy isn't enough to retain a job in one of Europe's top clubs. You have to be able to motivate the players, properly train them and find the right way to get the best out of the group you've got and you're not going to get a lot of time. Unless you already have a winning resume you need to prove to your employer in some way that you're the right man for the job, and soon. The stakes at CFC are too high and if you can't achieve a minimum task set for your first season, you're history.

In that sense someone like Sarri is probably better off at some midtable club, where expectations and pressure to succeed are much lower and time to work on and develop your ideas is longer.

Disagree. Not being able to achieve your objective is a failure. You set your own parameters in which to determine your failures. No one else can do that.

Yes, probably. We don't know for sure. But having a defensive manager/approach would have guaranteed that before the season began. We know what kind of football he wants to play and we know he cares more about being happy than pushing himself to his limits.

I refer you to my previous post about the perceived lack of chances created. And yet I agree we should be creating more. I just don't expect the midfield we currently have to do that.

Agreed. But you need time. More than most if you're not playing pragmatic football. I'm not saying we should have our own Arsene Wenger, but we should allow any manager we've brought in the time and scope to do his job. Say we hired Mourinho after Conte, someone to get results with pragmatic football, then firstly the transition is easier and secondly he should be judged differently.

But we hired Sarri, who never had a preseason. We wanted an attacking philosophy. We knew the transition would be tough. We knew we never had enough goals and creativity in the team. We then essentially gave him one player and took away the backup for that player in the next window without a replacement. And I use the words 'we knew' lightly, as many fans don't consider these particulars. Barring a disastrous bottom-half finish we should absolutely see the project through the cycle. But as I've said - the short-termism from our board has now filtered down to the fanbase.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, shedpensioner said:

But the league isn’t calculated on statistics and I know what my eyes tell me, we play slow possession football with no end product! ?

It’s the worst I’ve consistently watched in years, I lose interest in games long before we’ve invariably been beaten, because it’s dull! 

Anyone hear could set a group of top professionals up to keep the ball & do nothing with it & that's what we’re watching.

It quite literally is. Just not on the ones I mentioned.

Yes we play with no end product, which just a part of playing attacking football. Attacking football is more than just goals and assists. Those are the ultimate realisations of the philosophy. 

To each is own, but I found the football under Conte to be far more tedious. And yet I never wanted to him leave either. Last season we played slow defensive football with no end product, the  difference being that this year we have more possession (and some other differences which people remain ignorant about), so some people perceive that to be more dull.

21 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

It quite literally is. Just not on the ones I mentioned.

Yes we play with no end product, which just a part of playing attacking football. Attacking football is more than just goals and assists. Those are the ultimate realisations of the philosophy. 

To each is own, but I found the football under Conte to be far more tedious. And yet I never wanted to him leave either. Last season we played slow defensive football with no end product, the  difference being that this year we have more possession (and some other differences which people remain ignorant about), so some people perceive that to be more dull.

After 30 minutes of Sunday’s game tell me about our attacking play? Clear chances created?

3 hours ago, RMH said:

You could say the same last season, many in here were happy to not get CL if we changed to a more attacking football philosophy.

Does it feel like we've changed to a more attacking football philosophy? It feels like a more possession based philosophy, but the results a scarily similar on the offensive side.

Goals
17/18 - 62
18/19 - 63 (projected)

Points
17/18 - 70
18/19 - 72 (projected)

Goals Against
17/18 - 38
18/19 - 42 (projected)

The whole thing is insane to me. I like the idea of having the ball more. I like the idea of fluid movement. I hated Conte's 8-1-1 that he played based on available personnel.

But WHY, WHY Sarri insists on playing the same players who have no future in this league while trying to implement a system makes zero sense. The biggest offenders being Willian and Pedro. What's the goal here? Get them playing the way you want (assuming you can) and they're a year older (they're already the two oldest wings in the league) and on perpetual one year contracts. 

I think there is a huge personnel problem when it comes to trying to play this system, so how do you solve that? By continuing to play the same old players, literally old, who don't play the style you're hoping to implement. And did I mention that they're old? They're already on the decline, so let's have them implement a new style.... 

"You can only focus on trying to improve 14 players" --- improve them for what? Retirement?

It's maddening...

I cannot believe he is still here tbh

 

100% out still for me, We need someone in charge who will regularly play, CHO, RLC, Christensen, and perhaps Ampadu and Abraham, build the new team, Sarri has clearly shown his hand in his reluctance to play the above 3. 

Supported chelsea over 30 years now, for me winning or losing I can take it either way, what really gets me is the lack of passion and effectively giving up when we concede.

Would love to see a team full of hunger and passion from players that have never won anything.

For me anyone from Holland/Terry/Lampard/Morris 

28 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

 

But WHY, WHY Sarri insists on playing the same players who have no future in this league while trying to implement a system makes zero sense. The biggest offenders being Willian and Pedro. What's the goal here? Get them playing the way you want (assuming you can) and they're a year older (they're already the two oldest wings in the league) and on perpetual one year contracts. 

I think there is a huge personnel problem when it comes to trying to play this system, so how do you solve that? By continuing to play the same old players, literally old, who don't play the style you're hoping to implement. And did I mention that they're old? They're already on the decline, so let's have them implement a new style.... 

"You can only focus on trying to improve 14 players" --- improve them for what? Retirement?

It's maddening...

This is it for me, the really frustrating part.  He's trying to teach old dogs new tricks, when we have new dogs that could be doing tricks for us for years.  Willian and Pedro have been great for us over the years, but they need to be phased out or rested as we transition to younger players.  It's the natural order.  It's one of the reasons we devote so many resources to the Academy.  Willian & Pedro might be around next year, but we can start bedding in their replacements now so that they are fully ready next season.  We know there's a good chance Kovavcic won't be here next year.  And we see that we are better when Loftus -Cheek is driving us forward in the middle, and Hudson-Odoi is running at defenders and crossing from the wing.