6 minutes ago, Argo said:

When the topic is on a defender underperforming under him given the Rudi/AC situations of last time combined with the fact said defender in question was pretty good prior (and at his last club) then yes, probability suggests that one is largely Lampard's doing.

And yes i agree there's problems that go beyond Frank but he's the reason we're looking THIS bad, one of the redeeming features under Potter/Bruno was our defensive record that has totally gone to pot under Frank, to put it into context he's 5 off Potter's goals allowed record in the league having managed 14 less games (15 if you count Bruno's game as a Potter game in all but name).

defensively we've got worse, however we're actually creating goal scoring opportunities now which were few and far between under Potter. Mudryk should have had one in the first 2 minutes, Gallagher should have got on the end of Kai's cut back etc. Its a trade off that we need to find a fine balance between. 

4 minutes ago, Argo said:

When the topic is on a defender underperforming under him given the Rudi/AC situations of last time combined with the fact said defender in question was pretty good prior (and at his last club) then yes, probability suggests that one is largely Lampard's doing.

And yes i agree there's problems that go beyond Frank but he's the reason we're looking THIS bad, one of the redeeming features under Potter/Bruno was our defensive record that has totally gone to pot under Frank, to put it into context he's 5 off Potter's goals allowed record in the league having managed 14 less games (15 if you count Bruno's game as a Potter game in all but name).

Look. Hate to point the basics out... But when you are on your third manager in a season with the club about to appoint a forth, it generally suggests something isnt right behind the scenes. We know this because of the problems we have been seeing for about 3 years. To reiterate, that's three different managers ideas of how to press/ close down and responsibilities for defending etc not to mention different training methods or approaches to games. the season was over with the appointment of Potter, not Lampard, the club then decided to sack potter as the improvements in the side were not really evident. We were simply in a holding pattern under his stewardship and players didnt sign up to his ideas. Lampard was brought in to allow the board to find the next right manager. Kudos for Lamps agreeing to come back to a vipers nest to take charge albeit temporarily. But point the fingers at the club legend if it makes you hapyp

1 minute ago, RIP Mourinho said:

defensively we've got worse, however we're actually creating goal scoring opportunities now which were few and far between under Potter. Mudryk should have had one in the first 2 minutes, Gallagher should have got on the end of Kai's cut back etc. Its a trade off that we need to find a fine balance between. 

That is a fair point actually but I don't think what more we're creating is greater than what we're now conceding if that makes sense.

In the short term Potter could have clean sheeted us to around 50 points, if he didn't make a significant improvement (which I feel he was starting to show some signs of) then fine sack him but at a point to do it with no plan wasn't a great idea for me.

I'm not sure what the argument is here. Someone has given a very good stat showing how we are defensively solid, overall the season. Individual mistakes, especially in a young player like Fofana, can be down to tiredness and bad tactics. We know that Frank is not the best defensive coach, and tactically we look shambles. There are also telling signs of players not being very fit. All that point towards errors being something that can be corrected through coaching and proper fitness preparation. I'm not worried about the defensive line, we are generally solid, we are just tactically inept overall the pitch inviting opposition to put a lot of pressure on our defenders, and knackered. If next season we don't see an improvement in Fofana, then by all means get the guns out, but for the moment, I think it is not fair to say things like he's the worst defender.

28 minutes ago, Argo said:

That is a fair point actually but I don't think what more we're creating is greater than what we're now conceding if that makes sense.

In the short term Potter could have clean sheeted us to around 50 points, if he didn't make a significant improvement (which I feel he was starting to show some signs of) then fine sack him but at a point to do it with no plan wasn't a great idea for me.

Agree, Potter clearly wasn't the one to take us forward so best to get him gone and look for his replacement ASAP though. I have no ill feelings towards Lamps, for me he's just a caretaker until Pochettino comes in. He was never expected to come in and actually improve anyone. I actually really liked his line up last night, giving all the youth game time.

On 22/05/2023 at 12:41, KokeFran96 said:

over 70M spent on Fofana and my goodness he has been poor all season. Cannot stay fit and cannot defend

Poor all season? That's just not true is it. Only need to look back half a page or so in this thread to see the comments.

 

Fofana had a shocker last night, can't dispute that. I know the players should still be professional and looking to give 100% and win every game, especially for the supporters who travelled up to OT and at the very least expect the team to compete. But let's be honest, once it was mathematically impossible for us to go down, no game has mattered and the players are just going through the motions, so I will excuse any player for last night and Sunday against Newcastle.

On the whole, Fofana has looked decent. Love it when he brings the ball out from the back at speed and I hope Pochettino will work on that and as long as he can stay injury free, think he will be great for us. Just as John Stones had a LOT of errors in his game (and still makes the odd one), under a good coach, he has become one of the very best, so we can but hope for the same with Fofana.

 

Edited May 26, 20233 yr by Nibs

Wes head has gone, like many others. 

Don't think anyone can blame his crap passing on anyone other than him.

10 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Wes head has gone, like many others. 

Don't think anyone can blame his crap passing on anyone other than him.

That's the point isn't. Regardless of motivation, stepping out of defence with the ball, breaking through the Man Utd line into open space in midfield and then passing it to an unmarked Madueke on the right whilst under no pressure whatsoever and passing it off of the pitch is, frankly inexcusable and well..............just sh*t

As much as people are unhappy with Koulibaly, he never had such a terrible performance in a single match for us as Fofana has had yesterday.

21 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

As much as people are unhappy with Koulibaly, he never had such a terrible performance in a single match for us as Fofana has had yesterday.

I noticed that from the highlights he looked shockingly bad.

Hopefully just 'a bad day at the office........'

Got no choice but to support him through ( only 1 game left and he may not even be playing), and hopefully under a proper manager and trainings he will get back to the level he was. I don't want see us abandoning KK either, we let him go now it's a lose-lose. With Silva heading into retirement, need a senior defender in the team, even he's not the same level as he was.

Looking to me like we will have 5 CBs - Chalobah, Silva, Koulibally, Fofana, Badashiel and possibly Colwill.

If  we look to play a back 4 that is too many even allowing for injuries.  

51 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

As much as people are unhappy with Koulibaly, he never had such a terrible performance in a single match for us as Fofana has had yesterday.

Leeds? 0-3. Awful and then sent off.

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

As much as people are unhappy with Koulibaly, he never had such a terrible performance in a single match for us as Fofana has had yesterday.

Leeds, much worse than Fofanna, and a red card too.

Sorry, didn't see Zeta had already posted this.

Edited May 27, 20233 yr by dkw

@Zeta and @dkw , thanks for the correction, cheers.

7 hours ago, Zeta said:

Leeds? 0-3. Awful and then sent off.

Koulibaly didn't have a hand in conceding 3 goals in that game though.

Fofana was beaten to the header by Casemiro for the first United goal, conceded the penalty for the third, and then made the brain fart pass across the box for the 4th.

Wes for the "Win" I'd say 🙂 

 

5 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Koulibaly didn't have a hand in conceding 3 goals in that game though.

Fofana was beaten to the header by Casemiro for the first United goal, conceded the penalty for the third, and then made the brain fart pass across the box for the 4th.

Wes for the "Win" I'd say 🙂 

 

So just to be clear, in your opinion, on their performances overall this season, Koulibaly is a centre-half you would pick to play over Fofana?

Also watch the first United goal again. Who was picking up Casemiro? Who was in front as the cross came over?

Havertz.

Edited May 27, 20233 yr by just

8 hours ago, just said:

So just to be clear, in your opinion, on their performances overall this season, Koulibaly is a centre-half you would pick to play over Fofana?

Also watch the first United goal again. Who was picking up Casemiro? Who was in front as the cross came over?

Havertz.

That wasn't the question. The question was "has Koulibaly had a game as bad as Fofana had against United ?"

And in my opinion the answer is "No", for the reasons stated. 

Personally I think both of them will do much better next season, assuming they are both here of course. Fofana won't be sold, but a Koulibaly return to Italy is possible. 

I don't think Koulibaly has been anywhere near what we were expecting this season, but neither do I think he's been as bad as some posters are making out. No debate that he is not delivering performances that are worth £295K a week though. 

15 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Koulibaly didn't have a hand in conceding 3 goals in that game though.

Fofana was beaten to the header by Casemiro for the first United goal, conceded the penalty for the third, and then made the brain fart pass across the box for the 4th.

Wes for the "Win" I'd say 🙂 

 

That doesn't mean he wasn't awful, he got booked early as he was caught massively out of position then had an absolute shocker. He got 2 or 3 out of 10 in most places, so yes, he was utterly garbage.

2 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

That wasn't the question. The question was "has Koulibaly had a game as bad as Fofana had against United ?"

And in my opinion the answer is "No", for the reasons stated. 

Personally I think both of them will do much better next season, assuming they are both here of course. Fofana won't be sold, but a Koulibaly return to Italy is possible. 

I don't think Koulibaly has been anywhere near what we were expecting this season, but neither do I think he's been as bad as some posters are making out. No debate that he is not delivering performances that are worth £295K a week though. 

Sadly Koulibaly came to the PL about three years too late. Chelsea were interested in him longer ago than that but Napoli wouldn't sell.

20 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Koulibaly didn't have a hand in conceding 3 goals in that game though.

Fofana was beaten to the header by Casemiro for the first United goal, conceded the penalty for the third, and then made the brain fart pass across the box for the 4th.

Wes for the "Win" I'd say 🙂 

 

Well that's true, but either way both contributed to a clear loss, if by getting a red card or being responsible for letting 3 goals in, the result is the same. It all points to a lack of a proper defensive coach, something that we have had a lot of issues with in the recent years that only top managers like Conte, Sarri and Tuchel tried to mask with their particular tactics.

23 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Well that's true, but either way both contributed to a clear loss, if by getting a red card or being responsible for letting 3 goals in, the result is the same. It all points to a lack of a proper defensive coach, something that we have had a lot of issues with in the recent years that only top managers like Conte, Sarri and Tuchel tried to mask with their particular tactics.

We were already 3 down by the time he had the red card (84th minute), so the game was already gone. First goal was the infamous Mendy dribbling error, second goal was a set piece header at the near post when Leeds player beat James and Silva in the air, and 3rd goal  was bad all round,  but mainly stemming from James (right centre back) and RLC (wing back) totally out of position up field and leaving the Leeds left winger free in loads of space to cross for the goal.

All water under the bridge anyway, and Fofana in particular hopefully will have a much better season next year. 

Defence has been the least of our problems this season though. In the circumstances, all the defenders have done quite well to have us conceding the 4th lowest amount of goals ! 🙂 

He improved us yesterday. We were way more defensively solid after he came on at half-time for Chalobah. We were a total car crash at the back in the first half.

How fit will Wesley be this season? I read Si Phillips saying "unfortunately there is still some concern there". That wouldn't surprise me but does anyone have the skinny?