Zouma - If Kurt's Happy, I'm Happy!

[Argo]

4 hours ago, ducavis said:

Common knock it off, Luiz isn’t much better. Difference is the Zouma is not yet at his peak, while Luiz is on a fast decline.

How much better is Zouma going to realistically get? He's not going to suddenly develop a great first touch and ability to shine playing out from the back and he looks no closer to sorting out his issues with positioning and timing of leaps.

We always have this narrative with these really flawed type of players when they're young (and it's not like at 24 Kurt is a baby anymore) almost as if they will suddenly fix all their flaws holding them back when they start approaching their prime, however in reality the Zouma we see now is likely as good as he's going to get.

[WhiteWall]

4 hours ago, ducavis said:

Common knock it off, Luiz isn’t much better. Difference is the Zouma is not yet at his peak, while Luiz is on a fast decline.

I actually think that Zouma is not the player he was before his injury. His reading of the game, timing and composure on the ball are all very worrying. He only seems to have the ability to head the ball away at the moment for me.

[Argo]

1 minute ago, WhiteWall said:

I actually think that Zouma is not the player he was before his injury. His reading of the game, timing and composure on the ball are all very worrying. He only seems to have the ability to head the ball away at the moment for me.

The problems were there before his injury I just think we just got so desperate for someone that wasn't Cahill or father time JT we by in large ignored them.

Apart from a short spell last season for Everton he's never been a regular part of a solid or even good defense (since arriving in England) and it's not hard to see why.

[GhostOfDembaBa]

3 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I actually think that Zouma is not the player he was before his injury. His reading of the game, timing and composure on the ball are all very worrying. He only seems to have the ability to head the ball away at the moment for me.

Not even that on the evidence of the few games in preseason.

He grew into the Everton side last season. Maybe a case of adapting slowly to the new manager, system and teammates?

I'd like to think so.

[WhiteWall]

Somebody posted here questioning how good will these players get as they get older and it's a really good point. They won't suddenly develop a new skill set and lose the bad habits that they have Through hard work and practice you can improve and finesse something that you have natural ability at, such as Lampard did. But he had incredibale ability anyway. Joe Cole had his ability as a child. He didn't suddently develop once he made the first team. Our craving for youngsters to break through and be the next best thing often clouds our judgment. Do I really think that Christenson, Zouma, Bakayoko, Abraham and Bats will be anything other than bang average pros at best. Probably not. Would i rate these if they were at other clubs, probably not actually.

[Deino]

7 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

Somebody posted here questioning how good will these players get as they get older and it's a really good point. They won't suddenly develop a new skill set and lose the bad habits that they have Through hard work and practice you can improve and finesse something that you have natural ability at, such as Lampard did. But he had incredibale ability anyway. Joe Cole had his ability as a child. He didn't suddently develop once he made the first team. Our craving for youngsters to break through and be the next best thing often clouds our judgment. Do I really think that Christenson, Zouma, Bakayoko, Abraham and Bats will be anything other than bang average pros at best. Probably not. Would i rate these if they were at other clubs, probably not actually.

I agree to a point. Things like technical aspects of the game like passing techniques, curve etc. are more inherent and is very hard to train after players develop their own habits but the mental aspects of the game like concentration, reading of the game etc. are very much easy to learn skills should they focus on improving that aspect. It's why players like Puyol, Modric, Iniesta and Terry can manage for so long in their respective positions.

Zouma keeps on focusing on the physical aspects of the game especially after the injury is IMHO the reason why his development has stunted. He is at the age where the best CBs normally start to distance themselves from the pack.

[ENygma]

Simple fact is that the injury has derailed and pretty much ruined his career. Hes not the player he once was and the older he gets (already 24) the less chance hes going to live up to his initial potential. Im sure he'll still be a great player, but only for a mid table side. Dont think he has a place here in a top side that'll be in the champions league. 

Our defence really needs to get sorted out. If Christensen and Rudiger can both step up this season then that will be a massive plus.

[Boston Blue]

1 hour ago, ENygma said:

Simple fact is that the injury has derailed and pretty much ruined his career. Hes not the player he once was and the older he gets (already 24) the less chance hes going to live up to his initial potential. Im sure he'll still be a great player, but only for a mid table side. Dont think he has a place here in a top side that'll be in the champions league. 

Our defence really needs to get sorted out. If Christensen and Rudiger can both step up this season then that will be a massive plus.

I agree with this.  I always thought he played very deliberate and tentative.  But he was totally passive vs BM, deferring to other defenders to step in and make a play instead of taking charge himself.

We can't have a central defender standing in the box waiting for a teammate to deal with the danger.

[Remodez]

3 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

Somebody posted here questioning how good will these players get as they get older and it's a really good point. They won't suddenly develop a new skill set and lose the bad habits that they have Through hard work and practice you can improve and finesse something that you have natural ability at, such as Lampard did. But he had incredibale ability anyway. Joe Cole had his ability as a child. He didn't suddently develop once he made the first team. Our craving for youngsters to break through and be the next best thing often clouds our judgment. Do I really think that Christenson, Zouma, Bakayoko, Abraham and Bats will be anything other than bang average pros at best. Probably not. Would i rate these if they were at other clubs, probably not actually.

Christensen is a bad example as he has actually proven himself at the highest levels when given the chance. His problem is entirely down to confidence and a lack of run of games.

[Skinnedy]

3 hours ago, Argo said:

How much better is Zouma going to realistically get?

to play Devil's advocate... at Kurt's age, Harry Maguire was making the move from Hull City to Leicester City for about 17M after having previously been on loan at Wigan. Did United over-pay? Is he being incredibly over-hyped? Is he a good CB? Yes, Yes, and Yes.

I think Kurt has 4 more years on his contract. Still might be worth a loan move. 

That said, I still like the Christensen / Rudiger pairing. I like my defensive players being praised for their defensive ability, and my attackers being praised for their attacking ability...  I'm strange like that...

[Argo]

9 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

to play Devil's advocate... at Kurt's age, Harry Maguire was making the move from Hull City to Leicester City for about 17M after having previously been on loan at Wigan. Did United over-pay? Is he being incredibly over-hyped? Is he a good CB? Yes, Yes, and Yes.

I think Kurt has 4 more years on his contract. Still might be worth a loan move. 

That said, I still like the Christensen / Rudiger pairing. I like my defensive players being praised for their defensive ability, and my attackers being praised for their attacking ability...  I'm strange like that...

Thing is I think the other three are better than Zouma from defensive point of views, by quite a bit aswell. Luiz may make some mistakes but he also has big moments at big times, an on form Christensen reads the game so well and makes it look so easy while Rudiger goes without saying.

Furthermore with Maguire, it was clear when he came to Stamford Bridge with Hull (in that game Ryan Mason got that serious head injury) that he had something, had a good game defensively and his forways forward from RCB were causing us all sorts of problems. I wouldn't say he's very top level but by the sounds of it (Fergie's testimony) he's been on the radar for quite some time.

Regarding your last line it's not as straight forward as that anymore, yes defenders have to be good at defending the ball however good ball playing in this modern game is increasingly a part of defending, if you can't evade a press the ball will keep coming back at you (especially against elite opponent's) and no matter how good defenders are at defending without the ball, there's only so long they will be able to deal with such pressure if they can't distribute it properly themselves (same goes for keepers). Our defenders currently for every one time they are facing an attacker on a one on one or facing a cross there's multiple instances of them picking up the ball under pressure and having to find a pass.

[mad_mac]

Like most on here I fear that the time has passed for Zouma.  As likable as he is, he does seem to be playing timid.  Christensen has appeared rough around the edges, but put in a few good shifts last year in the Europa to make me feel he has more there.  I think Rudiger has been one of our best signings in recent memory, and as much of a calamity as he can be, I like Luiz also.  Luiz and Rudiger both have a bit of menace about them I feel necessary in CB's.  At this point, I think Kurt is 4th choice, so he may look at Everton and feel he could get more time there, and thus his spot of filled by Tomori.  All good, assuming the first choices stay healthy, and with Rudiger's injury flaring up twice last season (I think the second was because we rushed him back to soon), that does give me pause to reflect.  Would we really feel okay going into a CL game with a CB paring of Tomori and Christensen?  It's been teh case for a few years now, but it's sad that a once dominant team in defence is now struggling in that area the most.

[Skinnedy]

5 hours ago, Argo said:

Regarding your last line it's not as straight forward as that anymore,

Being good all around is always a bonus. But it bothered me last year that we had defenders praised for their ability to get forward and attackers praised for their defensive work-rate, while failing in their primary tasks.... then we wondered why we had trouble scoring and keeping clean sheets... 

I don't know that Zouma is any Better than Luiz defensively right now either. I know I'd like to see more rotation this year, that may help with Luiz' focus. 

[WalterWhiteCFC]

I think zouma is very coachable that’s why u see Jose with JT in the team he was looking like he would be a top CB I remember he even played DM and everyone was joking about Felani being in his pocket he looked immense. 

He has a very bad injury and was at dross teams, I think with the right coaching he could improve as he has the physical attributes already.

My issue is I’m seeing improvements in midfield under frank as expected but abysmal defence it may not be his strong point, ideally JT would be back as defensive coach then we would see some tight defending. 

[DannyVblue]

Ask any Everton fan and they'd tell you how good he was for them last season. They unanimously wanted to sign him from us permanently, and they're the fans who have been watching him week-in week-out. I don't agree with writing a player off before they've even had a consistent run of games in the first team - how unfair and negative is that? He may never improve, but he deserves a chance.

Same can be said for Tammy Abraham too - some on here are already writing him off before he's even started a single game for us!!

[Imran_CFC]

I am completely against selling Zouma as I dont think we will be able to acquire a player of his ability with the same fee we may receive for him, people are making an argument that he is not good enough to start for a CL level squad however I think he is certainly good enough to be a squad member for a CL level team. We need to understand that we need a good enough squad to compete on all fronts and Zouma is certainly good enough to provide decent backup to Rudiger, Luiz & co. 

If we look at the other top 6 teams and the backup they have to the front line CB's I would say Zouma would easily be comparable to that level. (Phil Jones, Lovren, Mangala, Mustafi, Foyth)

[Dixons]

Even before his injury i never though he'd be good enough for a top four team. His footwork has always been poor. A big, lumbering player unable to put in those quick, nimble, short steps to adjust his posistion, which was even more of a problem when added to his poor posistional play. 

[WhiteWall]

1 hour ago, Imran_CFC said:

I am completely against selling Zouma as I dont think we will be able to acquire a player of his ability with the same fee we may receive for him, people are making an argument that he is not good enough to start for a CL level squad however I think he is certainly good enough to be a squad member for a CL level team. We need to understand that we need a good enough squad to compete on all fronts and Zouma is certainly good enough to provide decent backup to Rudiger, Luiz & co. 

If we look at the other top 6 teams and the backup they have to the front line CB's I would say Zouma would easily be comparable to that level. (Phil Jones, Lovren, Mangala, Mustafi, Foyth)

Whilst it is a moot point for this and the next window, I personally think that Tarkowski from Burnley is a better defender than Zouma, yet both are reportedly quoted at £40m.

[Dixons]

47 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

 I personally think that Tarkowski from Burnley is a better defender than Zouma, yet both are reportedly quoted at £40m.

A lof of people said Liverpool paid far too much for VVD. Going by the quoted figures for Tarkowski and Zouma the VVD price is the bargain of the decade!                           Next summer i hope we sign a couple of VVD level  players who make a big difference to the team, rather blow a few hundred million on half a dozen 40 million pound average players who don't bring any real improvement to the starting 11.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Dixons

[ENygma]

2 hours ago, Imran_CFC said:

I am completely against selling Zouma as I dont think we will be able to acquire a player of his ability with the same fee we may receive for him, people are making an argument that he is not good enough to start for a CL level squad however I think he is certainly good enough to be a squad member for a CL level team. We need to understand that we need a good enough squad to compete on all fronts and Zouma is certainly good enough to provide decent backup to Rudiger, Luiz & co. 

If we look at the other top 6 teams and the backup they have to the front line CB's I would say Zouma would easily be comparable to that level. (Phil Jones, Lovren, Mangala, Mustafi, Foyth)

Very valid point. 

I have no problem keeping him on as a sub or backup CB, but as far as relying on him to be the starting CB? Definitely not good enough in my eyes.

[EdinburghBlue]

19 hours ago, Remodez said:

Christensen is a bad example as he has actually proven himself at the highest levels when given the chance. His problem is entirely down to confidence and a lack of run of games.

He gets far too hard a time on from our fans for me. He’s no John Terry but he’s a terrific centre back when he has confidence and was playing regularly. He had a bad spell under Conte and he got slaughtered and I think people still hold it against him these days.

Edited August 6, 2019 by EdinburghBlue

[Boston Blue]

18 hours ago, Skinnedy said:

 

That said, I still like the Christensen / Rudiger pairing. I like my defensive players being praised for their defensive ability, and my attackers being praised for their attacking ability...  I'm strange like that...

I agree.  Luiz, Alonso, even Emerson to some extent are essentially offensive defenders.  There for their abilities to play out of the back, play good balls, cross, make runs down the wing, etc.  Like you, I want my defenders defending, doing what they can to prevent goals and chances.  That should be their priority.  If they can chip in with some offensive contributions, that's a bonus.  

With Zouma, I think we look at how big and strong he appears to be, and we think he should be more physically dominant.  Christensen, Rudiger, Luiz are not tall or particularly muscular, so I don't think they scare many attackers with their physicality.  

[Argo]

4 hours ago, DannyVblue said:

Ask any Everton fan and they'd tell you how good he was for them last season. They unanimously wanted to sign him from us permanently, and they're the fans who have been watching him week-in week-out. I don't agree with writing a player off before they've even had a consistent run of games in the first team - how unfair and negative is that? He may never improve, but he deserves a chance.

Same can be said for Tammy Abraham too - some on here are already writing him off before he's even started a single game for us!!

In any industry if you want to make it to the top you have to perform in the little windows you get. If you apply for the job in the "real" world and balls up your interview that will likely be that. 

We can't give players a consistent run in the first team and weeks on end for them to blow of cobwebs, they have to impress in training then in the chances they get on the pitch, no I'm not saying they have to turn into Baresi from the off but they need to give some scope that makes you think giving more chances will be worth it, and in none of the games Zouma has given that vibe.

[Munkunku]

4 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

He gets far too hard a time on from our fans for me. He’s no John Terry but he’s a terrific centre back when he has confidence and was playing regularly. He had a bad spell under Conte and he got slaughtered and I think people still hold it against him these days.

He’s only 23 and for me is getting better and better. The dodgy spell can be a positive experience and should do him good in the long run. He cement his place in the starting XI of a top for the bulk of his career if he keeps going the way he is. 

[Boston Blue]

16 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

He’s only 23 and for me is getting better and better. The dodgy spell can be a positive experience and should do him good in the long run. He cement his place in the starting XI of a top for the bulk of his career if he keeps going the way he is. 

Agree.  He's better when he knows one mistake won't get him replaced.