17 minutes ago, enigma said:

Conte was actually being backed though. The club went after Sandro and Koulibaly in the first season, but both clubs refused to sell those players so we got the second choice (Conte's second choice) in Alonso and also Luiz, as well as Rudiger. Conte also got Kante (the league winner the season before and arguably Leicester's best player behind Vardy) and Conte also had the fortune of a 20 goal a season striker in Costa too, who he managed to have a spat with and ruin the relationship with so much that Costa wouldn't return. I can understand the club's stance form that point and it wasn't positive. Conte had it pretty well in that first season if you ask me. 

He had it well in the first season but then he got rightly pissed when he wasn't backed in the second season to build on things despite the fact we had CL football to deal with.

And the relationship with good old Diego, that was ruined but that was because we had a player acting like a complete prick and practically downing tools after he decided he wanted to move to China. Conte had to stand firm and rightly so. Said player has hardly pulled up any trees since and looks like he is again surplus to current clubs requirements.

 

8 minutes ago, enigma said:

Conte was actually being backed though. The club went after Sandro and Koulibaly in the first season, but both clubs refused to sell those players so we got the second choice (Conte's second choice) in Alonso and also Luiz, as well as Rudiger. Conte also got Kante (the league winner the season before and arguably Leicester's best player behind Vardy) and Conte also had the fortune of a 20 goal a season striker in Costa too, who he managed to have a spat with and ruin the relationship with so much that Costa wouldn't return. I can understand the club's stance form that point and it wasn't positive. Conte had it pretty well in that first season if you ask me. 

So Conte wanted Sandro and Koulibaly but didn't get them? Whereas Sarri gets Jorginho, Kepa, Higuain, Kovacic... All his picks to play his system. 

I've made the point elsewhere, Kante was a big coup but after his season with Leicester he was still a somewhat unknown quantity. At that point in time he was a one-season wonder and we paid a relatively modest sum for him making a somewhat low risk gamble and fortunately he was able to replicate his form and became the start he is today.

Conte didn't have a good squad for his first season, Ivanovic and Terry's legs had gone but they were viewed as first choice going into the season. If you ask me he turned water into wine by converting Moses, a rather underwhelming winger, into a productive fullback... None of use saw that one coming. Throw on top Alonso, the former Bolton and Sunderland leftback who'd be plying his trade at a mid table Fiorentina turning into the best left sided defender in the league. If he'd have got his first choice in Sandro and we got those performances you'd have been happy... but from Marcos Alonso? That was good coaching. 

He also got David Luiz playing some of the best football of his career by putting him the centre of a back three, maximizing his strengths but protecting his weaknesses.... Not forgetting he achieved this off the back of a very short pre-season having changed formation and tactics after the season had already begun. Completely disagree that Conte had it good transfer wise during either of his seasons personally. 

As for Costa, he had been angling to leave us from the first season he joined Chelsea. That he stayed for three seasons was surprising. He had his head turned by a big money offer from China and it was all downhill from there. Yes Conte didn't cover himself in glory with how he handled but I don't think he or anyone else was going to convince him to stay for a forth season. 

 

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

So whose fault is that? 

We were led to believe Jorginho WAS the system. He's the grand architect of Sarri-ball and we spent a lot of money on him despite his apparent limited skill set. 

Apparently world cup winner Kante doesn't have the technical attributes to play there. Premier League winner Danny Drinkwater is completely incapable of playing in a three man midfield. We've lost Cesc because of Sarri's preference for Jorginho... Sarri's certainly had it all his own way so far when it comes to the squad, despite his quotes about training the players he's got and the transfer market being a refuse for the weak. All smoke and mirrors that, he's having a huge say on this team and it's on him to start delivering better, more convincing performances as a result. 

If our attack was firing Jorginho would look a lot better. He's played a tonne of key passes that should have led to goals or at least shots on target only to be ballsed up by one of our attackers, there's a decent video here. Yes he plays a lot of short sideways balls, but it's his job to keep the ball moving and get the other team out of position, that's the regista role he's playing, and I think he does it very well. Of course he can improve, but i feel like he's the latest in a long line of scapegoats at Chelsea
 

 

37 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

That'd be the Conte side that lost Matic, Costa, Terry and was given quantity rather than quality signings during the summer. Wanted upgrades on his fullbacks  but instead had to play half a season with European football with one recognised left back. Almost every player signed last season has or is being moved on this season. It speaks volumes about how poor that squad and those recruitment were. 

I've been consistent on my opinions about Sarri. I was skeptical of his appointment and haven't seen enough to convince me otherwise so far.... Hopefully he proves me wrong but this narrative that he is happy to work with the players he is given and doesn't care about transfers needs to die because it clearly isn't true. 

What narrative is that?

I am aware of some old comments he made, but don't know what the word for word quote was. Is it something that has been repeated recently?

2 minutes ago, mclovin83 said:

What narrative is that?

I am aware of some old comments he made, but don't know what the word for word quote was. Is it something that has been repeated recently?

Quite a few quotes and articles attributed to him when he got the Chelsea job. 

Made a few comments along similar lines when he first joined the club too when quizzed on transfers.

It's a strange myth that's become attached to him as though transfers don't interests him. Of course they do and it's become increasingly clear he's a lot more involved in transfers at Chelsea then he'd like to let on. 

8 minutes ago, RMCM said:

If our attack was firing Jorginho would look a lot better. He's played a tonne of key passes that should have led to goals or at least shots on target only to be ballsed up by one of our attackers, there's a decent video here. Yes he plays a lot of short sideways balls, but it's his job to keep the ball moving and get the other team out of position, that's the regista role he's playing, and I think he does it very well. Of course he can improve, but i feel like he's the latest in a long line of scapegoats at Chelsea

But is the attack not firing in part because Jorginho isn't playing well? He's the metranome of Sarri's system, he predominantly dictates the tempo and the movement of the team so if he's not doing his job well it quickly falls apart. 

The video you posted, interestingly, contains highlights from his first 5 or 6 games of the season, when we were playing some of our better football and were generally more exciting to watch. 

Not sure I'm scapegoating Jorginho (unless that comment wasn't directed at me) but he's certainly been underwhelming for the last couple of months. 

12 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

So Conte wanted Sandro and Koulibaly but didn't get them? Whereas Sarri gets Jorginho, Kepa, Higuain, Kovacic... All his picks to play his system. 

I've made the point elsewhere, Kante was a big coup but after his season with Leicester he was still a somewhat unknown quantity. At that point in time he was a one-season wonder and we paid a relatively modest sum for him making a somewhat low risk gamble and fortunately he was able to replicate his form and became the start he is today.

Conte didn't have a good squad for his first season, Ivanovic and Terry's legs had gone but they were viewed as first choice going into the season. If you ask me he turned water into wine by converting Moses, a rather underwhelming winger, into a productive fullback... None of use saw that one coming. Throw on top Alonso, the former Bolton and Sunderland leftback who'd be plying his trade at a mid table Fiorentina turning into the best left sided defender in the league. If he'd have got his first choice in Sandro and we got those performances you'd have been happy... but from Marcos Alonso? That was good coaching. 

He also got David Luiz playing some of the best football of his career by putting him the centre of a back three, maximizing his strengths but protecting his weaknesses.... Not forgetting he achieved this off the back of a very short pre-season having changed formation and tactics after the season had already begun. Completely disagree that Conte had it good transfer wise during either of his seasons personally. 

As for Costa, he had been angling to leave us from the first season he joined Chelsea. That he stayed for three seasons was surprising. He had his head turned by a big money offer from China and it was all downhill from there. Yes Conte didn't cover himself in glory with how he handled but I don't think he or anyone else was going to convince him to stay for a forth season. 

 

How do you know that Sarri wasn't happy to work with the players that were already at his disposal? If Sarri is offered the chance to sign players such as Jorginho, Kepa and Kovacic what would you expect his response to be? "No, I don't want those players, I'm happy to work with what I have". Sarri was brought in to work with the players that we already have and improve them, but if he's offered the chance to sign players better than what we had at the time he's not going to turn that opportunity down. If Jorginho, Kepa and Kovacic were all Sarri's signings like you claim, were Morata, Bakayoko, Drinkwater and Zappacosta all Conte signings? Kepa was bought because we needed a new keeper as Courtois went awol - this purchase was a necessity. We then managed to get Kovacic as Courtois was going the other way, I doubt we'd have got Kovacic if Courtois didn't leave for Madrid. And every football fan in the UK can see that we're screaming out for a striker and it just so happens that Higuain was best option at the time. No doubt that Sarri will be pleased with the signing he's managed to get in, but I wouldn't say hes the type of manager to demand signings. Conte/Mourinho are more that type of manager.

19 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Quite a few quotes and articles attributed to him when he got the Chelsea job. 

Made a few comments along similar lines when he first joined the club too when quizzed on transfers.

It's a strange myth that's become attached to him as though transfers don't interests him. Of course they do and it's become increasingly clear he's a lot more involved in transfers at Chelsea then he'd like to let on. 

Well I fully agree with you that transfers interest him. It would be both weird and worrying if they didn't to be honest.

I have only seen the one quote some time ago though, didn't really know it was a 'thing'.

I took it to mean  he likes to focus on football rather than the transfer market, which isn't an uncommon theme for Managers. Perhaps it is how he see's himself or wants to be seen, I don't know.

But if he is asked "would you like to stick with Morata, or do you want us to try and get a striker who thrived under you previously" then what would you hope/expect him to say? Of course he is going to give his opinion.

I wouldn't expect I'm to reply with "Sorry, I would like to tell you, but 6 months ago I made a comment about not being interested in transfers, so I better not"

If we had a striker who was even close to doing their job for the club then I would imagine he would have been happy to work with what he had. But under the circumstances, what manager would be happy?!

Edited January 17, 20197 yr by mclovin83

6 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

But is the attack not firing in part because Jorginho isn't playing well? He's the metranome of Sarri's system, he predominantly dictates the tempo and the movement of the team so if he's not doing his job well it quickly falls apart. 

The video you posted, interestingly, contains highlights from his first 5 or 6 games of the season, when we were playing some of our better football and were generally more exciting to watch. 

Not sure I'm scapegoating Jorginho (unless that comment wasn't directed at me) but he's certainly been underwhelming for the last couple of months. 

Sorry, misunderstanding, wasn't suggesting you were scapegoating Jorginho at all, but there is a section of our fanbase that is blowing his sub par performances out of proportion. 

I think the video proves the point that he is capable, but for whatever reason has had a dip in form. Hard to say the reason behind it but it must be frustrating as a deep lying playmaker to not have much in the way of forward movement to target, he's reverted to playing safe passes because there is little going on in front of him. 

He is the metronome but i feel the blame doesn't lie with him, at least not completely, but hopefully if Higuain comes in we will see a bit more from him in terms of positive forward play. If I was in Jorginho's position i'd be reluctant to play forward passes too knowing Morata was the one being relied on to make runs and finish chances 

7 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

So Conte wanted Sandro and Koulibaly but didn't get them? Whereas Sarri gets Jorginho, Kepa, Higuain, Kovacic... All his picks to play his system. 

I've made the point elsewhere, Kante was a big coup but after his season with Leicester he was still a somewhat unknown quantity. At that point in time he was a one-season wonder and we paid a relatively modest sum for him making a somewhat low risk gamble and fortunately he was able to replicate his form and became the start he is today.

Conte didn't have a good squad for his first season, Ivanovic and Terry's legs had gone but they were viewed as first choice going into the season. If you ask me he turned water into wine by converting Moses, a rather underwhelming winger, into a productive fullback... None of use saw that one coming. Throw on top Alonso, the former Bolton and Sunderland leftback who'd be plying his trade at a mid table Fiorentina turning into the best left sided defender in the league. If he'd have got his first choice in Sandro and we got those performances you'd have been happy... but from Marcos Alonso? That was good coaching. 

He also got David Luiz playing some of the best football of his career by putting him the centre of a back three, maximizing his strengths but protecting his weaknesses.... Not forgetting he achieved this off the back of a very short pre-season having changed formation and tactics after the season had already begun. Completely disagree that Conte had it good transfer wise during either of his seasons personally. 

As for Costa, he had been angling to leave us from the first season he joined Chelsea. That he stayed for three seasons was surprising. He had his head turned by a big money offer from China and it was all downhill from there. Yes Conte didn't cover himself in glory with how he handled but I don't think he or anyone else was going to convince him to stay for a forth season. 

 

To be fair, Jorginho only came because of Sarri. If not for Sarri, Jorginho would have definitely been a City player where I believe he would have thrived under a system which is down pat. Kepa came because we had to get rid of Courtois, and from what I've heard Kovacic was thrown in by Real to sweeten the Courtois deal. There's no way we could rely on our current strikers to do anything, so Higuain was the only choice. The board had only backed Sarri with three players, two of which were desperately needed in a new keeper to replace Courtois and a striker. 

I think a lot of the first season under Conte was a new system which hadn't been played against before, so that helped, but also the competition was limited. It was Pep's first season at City, Klopp wasn't doing good with Liverpool, and only Tottenham were playing consistently well that season. I agree with your points that Alonso and Moses played well that season, but again, think it was more to do with teams not adapting how to play against the system. 

Luiz has always been a quality player with the ball at his feet. He was always world class on his day, so he certainly wasn't/isn't a poor player.

Nevertheless, Costa and Kante were arguably our best players in the first season. Without them, we had no chance of winning the league. 

Sarri is in a league with more competition this season and I believe people need to curb their expectations a little. We were way off challenging for the title last season and starting off this season without a competent striker and trying to learn a new system set us back straight away. If we don't play as well but still keep picking up three points, then it's okay because it's all about believing in the process. 

1 minute ago, enigma said:

To be fair, Jorginho only came because of Sarri. If not for Sarri, Jorginho would have definitely been a City player where I believe he would have thrived under a system which is down pat. Kepa came because we had to get rid of Courtois, and from what I've heard Kovacic was thrown in by Real to sweeten the Courtois deal. There's no way we could rely on our current strikers to do anything, so Higuain was the only choice. The board had only backed Sarri with three players, two of which were desperately needed in a new keeper to replace Courtois and a striker. 

I think a lot of the first season under Conte was a new system which hadn't been played against before, so that helped, but also the competition was limited. It was Pep's first season at City, Klopp wasn't doing good with Liverpool, and only Tottenham were playing consistently well that season. I agree with your points that Alonso and Moses played well that season, but again, think it was more to do with teams not adapting how to play against the system. 

Luiz has always been a quality player with the ball at his feet. He was always world class on his day, so he certainly wasn't/isn't a poor player.

Nevertheless, Costa and Kante were arguably our best players in the first season. Without them, we had no chance of winning the league. 

Sarri is in a league with more competition this season and I believe people need to curb their expectations a little. We were way off challenging for the title last season and starting off this season without a competent striker and trying to learn a new system set us back straight away. If we don't play as well but still keep picking up three points, then it's okay because it's all about believing in the process. 

Great post.

5 minutes ago, DannyVblue said:

How do you know that Sarri wasn't happy to work with the players that were already at his disposal? If Sarri is offered the chance to sign players such as Jorginho, Kepa and Kovacic what would you expect his response to be? "No, I don't want those players, I'm happy to work with what I have". Sarri was brought in to work with the players that we already have and improve them, but if he's offered the chance to sign players better than what we had at the time he's not going to turn that opportunity down. If Jorginho, Kepa and Kovacic were all Sarri's signings like you claim, were Morata, Bakayoko, Drinkwater and Zappacosta all Conte signings? Kepa was bought because we needed a new keeper as Courtois went awol - this purchase was a necessity. We then managed to get Kovacic as Courtois was going the other way, I doubt we'd have got Kovacic if Courtois didn't leave for Madrid. And every football fan in the UK can see that we're screaming out for a striker and it just so happens that Higuain was best option at the time. No doubt that Sarri will be pleased with the signing he's managed to get in, but I wouldn't say hes the type of manager to demand signings. Conte/Mourinho are more that type of manager.

He would have been, that's the thing. However, depends where our expectations lie. We were 30 points off the league title last season. People need to lower their expectations. It's either he takes the players he has, helps to improves them and we believe in the process or the club backs him and we try challenge for the title. We can't expect to challenge for the league after ending up 30 points behind City last season. Sarri said we were a year off both City and Liverpool, but people keep expecting us to be doing better and playing amazing football week in, week out. 

2 minutes ago, enigma said:

He would have been, that's the thing. However, depends where our expectations lie. We were 30 points off the league title last season. People need to lower their expectations. It's either he takes the players he has, helps to improves them and we believe in the process or the club backs him and we try challenge for the title. We can't expect to challenge for the league after ending up 30 points behind City last season. Sarri said we were a year off both City and Liverpool, but people keep expecting us to be doing better and playing amazing football week in, week out. 

Atm any week would be nice 

I read Higuaín would be able to play in the Europa League. That's a massive plus point.

Would he be able to play in the League Cup?

I read he would have to have been registered for the first leg, in order to play in the second against Spurs?

Can anyone confirm?

Edited January 17, 20197 yr by mclovin83

Different players work in different systems the fact he has not only played in this system but with this manager and did brilliantly should be a good sign, I think he will slot in at the very least to the system and that makes a new league a lot easier, he will be focused on what he is doing and already knows, the only real difference is he will have a bit less time on the ball in this league,  but he is a finisher he isn't looking to hold on to the ball and dribble.

People are very pessimistic, it's a loan, his wages are covered by Fabs wages and if we move on Garry we are 80k in the positive, hardly a huge risk, a bigger risk is losing out on the top 4 because we can't put the ball in the net.

I think people forgot how difficult it was to replace Drogs and when we did we got rid of him via text, next time we get a top striker, maybe sink our claws in and keep him happy. 

I can't see too many downsides with this deal. Signing him on a massive transfer fee at 31 would've been nonsensical therefore I can completely understand Granovskaia's reluctance to do that, and I think she's been smart with the arrangement.

Worst case scenario; he doesn't score more than a few goals and we send him back in 6 months having paid something in the region of £15-20m (I'd imagine) and if this means we don't make the top four, it won't be Higuain's fault, as he won't be any worse than our current options. Morata is one of the worst forwards I've ever seen for Chelsea in terms of comittment and attitude. At least Higuain will put a shift in, even if things are going against him. He has to improve our team.

Best case scenario; he scores 15+ goals and helps us solidify our champions league place, meaning we sign him up for another 12 months. That in total (inc. wages) would probably cost something in the region of £25-30m. Not ideal that we find ourselves in this position, but not the end of the world, and I'd rather that than spend £50m+ on Wilson.

If we also manage to sell Morata and Batshuayi for a decent fee (£45m and £40m reported) that'll be good business in my opinion.

8 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Well it’s not going to be much better at Chelsea either to be fair. 

Hazard, Kovacic, Jorginho & Pedro are levels above what Milan have.

1 hour ago, JMaher94 said:

Hazard, Kovacic, Jorginho & Pedro are levels above what Milan have.

So you think that we create enough chances at the moment? 

Senor Messi will disagree with all you peeps that thing Higuain is all that & a bag of chips, but he was awesome for me in FIFA TUF

 

2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

So Conte wanted Sandro and Koulibaly but didn't get them? Whereas Sarri gets Jorginho, Kepa, Higuain, Kovacic... All his picks to play his system. 

I've made the point elsewhere, Kante was a big coup but after his season with Leicester he was still a somewhat unknown quantity. At that point in time he was a one-season wonder and we paid a relatively modest sum for him making a somewhat low risk gamble and fortunately he was able to replicate his form and became the start he is today.

Conte didn't have a good squad for his first season, Ivanovic and Terry's legs had gone but they were viewed as first choice going into the season. If you ask me he turned water into wine by converting Moses, a rather underwhelming winger, into a productive fullback... None of use saw that one coming. Throw on top Alonso, the former Bolton and Sunderland leftback who'd be plying his trade at a mid table Fiorentina turning into the best left sided defender in the league. If he'd have got his first choice in Sandro and we got those performances you'd have been happy... but from Marcos Alonso? That was good coaching. 

He also got David Luiz playing some of the best football of his career by putting him the centre of a back three, maximizing his strengths but protecting his weaknesses.... Not forgetting he achieved this off the back of a very short pre-season having changed formation and tactics after the season had already begun. Completely disagree that Conte had it good transfer wise during either of his seasons personally. 

As for Costa, he had been angling to leave us from the first season he joined Chelsea. That he stayed for three seasons was surprising. He had his head turned by a big money offer from China and it was all downhill from there. Yes Conte didn't cover himself in glory with how he handled but I don't think he or anyone else was going to convince him to stay for a forth season. 

 

OK we all know Conte was very clear that the squad needs improvements.
But what if his own success was the main reason why the board stopped listening to him, had he not won the title in his first season, maybe the board would be willing to to invest better?

As far as the transfers were odd and not helping Conte, he did want and he did openly say that he loved to work with Morata - that was a transfer that he himself was fine with, until it showed that it was a total failure.
Another example is that Conte also advocated for Rudiger seeing how well he was in AS Roma - he got him as well but it proved to be a good signing, all the opposite from Morata.

I dare to claim that Conte had a bad vibe and his attitude towards the club was far too aggressive, he was openly talking bad about the squad and about his relation with the board and that's not good, so I would say that Conte himself behaved in a way that didn't help his cause at all, not in the short term and not in the long term.

Sarri on the other hand is a more practical man, more calm and looks more wise in his demeanor in the press and has handled the situations given to him in a smart way, he also had this rhetoric since he came, where he openly said that he is a coach first and foremost and that he wants to let the club sort out the transfer market and that he will focus on improving the players, that was a genius move by Sarri. He reacted in such a way, knowing that the previous manager had some problems with the board so by being so calm and not willing to jump into any possible conflict with the media where he could end up saying something wrong, he just simply let the time go by as he knew that's the only way how he can protect the club and himself and build up a good relation with everyone.

So Sarri had the benefit of seeing what happen to Conte - and responded like a smart man that he is, maybe that is the reason why the club is so willing to simply get him Kovacic, get him Jorginho or Higuain and put the trust in him, because Sarri has been doing things the right way since day 1.   

Edited January 17, 20197 yr by Gol15

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Another example is that Conte also advocated for Rudiger seeing how well he was in AS Roma - he got him as well but it proved to be a good signing, all the opposite from Morata.

I thought Emenalo got Rudiger, because he wanted to leave Italy because of all of the racial bs. I thought Rudiger reached out to Emenalo personally.

14 minutes ago, robdog said:

Senor Messi will disagree with all you peeps that thing Higuain is all that & a bag of chips, but he was awesome for me in FIFA TUF

 

That rhetoric is made by 12 year old's. I'm not a fan of Higuain but I find it ridiculous that the blind Messi fans are openly blaming him for Messi not being capable of doing anything meaningful with his national team. I'm so pissed at that actually because you know when you claim to be the best player ever, you are the one to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY when things go good and when things go bad, Maradona had no problem like this because he knew that if someone was to win him something it wouldn't be the truth of his own legacy, he needed to win for everyone else and not to let responsibility to someone smaller than him.
If Messi is so great, why he never managed to score against us while Cech was here?
How come he never ever scored in the World Cup after the group stage and he played since 2006, that's 4 World Cups mate, 4 World Cups and Messi never ever scored a single goal after the group stage. How come nobody blamed him when he missed the penalty in Copa America? f**k Messi's fans for always blaming someone else when their idol failed.

3 minutes ago, robdog said:

I thought Emenalo got Rudiger, because he wanted to leave Italy because of all of the racial bs. I thought Rudiger reached out to Emenalo personally.

Regardless of who did it in practice I remember Rudiger saying that he came because of Conte, at the time.

I don't know what to make of Higuain. I don't think he is being brought in to lead the line for years, more for a transcendent period. If the reports that are out of a 6 month loan with the option to extend for 12 month or sign at any point is a good deal for Chelsea. He plays well this second half of the season then I think Chelsea extend him on a loan basis. If he then continues to play very well, we probably sign him at some point to a 1 year extension.

Granted what has been reported might not actually be the truth to the deal. But if that is the deal, I can't really see a problem with the nuts and bolts of the deal. As long as Higuain doesn't fall down every time a defender looks at him, can stay onside ffs, and isn't a absolute head case, he will be an improvement. Time will tell. 

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

That rhetoric is made by 12 year old's. I'm not a fan of Higuain but I find it ridiculous that the blind Messi fans are openly blaming him

Most people in Argentina believe this & not just 12 year kids, but I do tend to agree w/ you a bit. When Argentina need that Hero to lead them to the promise land where was he? Sorta like how The Great DD dragged Chelsea in run to the European Cup.

Edited January 17, 20197 yr by robdog