12 minutes ago, Zeta said:

He can't be untouchable. If he's not performing, then Sarri can't be afraid to take him off and try something else. Or start with something else.

The problem is I think he is untouchable though. His only alternative is Fabregas to play this role in his "system".

It would be brave for Sarri to abandon his plans and restore Kante to his defensive midfield role.

I might be wrong but I can't see it yet.

Edited November 24, 20187 yr by Nickcook26

Kante and Jorgo needs their place changed.....or change the formation. Most teams will target him now, you can bet on it. As Eden said some time ago; its when we are uphill we will see if Sarri really is the one for us. He doesnt have the players needed`? Then figure something out until you have them. Like Poch has done so many times.

3 minutes ago, Nickcook26 said:

The problem is I think he is untouchable though. His only alternative is Fabregas to play this role in his "system".

It would be brave for Sarri to abandon his plans and restore Kante to his defensive midfield role.

I might be wrong but I can't see it yet.

If he is not brave enough to do that or change it up then he has no future with us. Football Waits on no one,.

I have been saying this for two months now that both Jorginho and Kante should NOT  be in the same team, when we have such average level of creativity (except Hazard) and finishing qualities in the squad.

 

Jorginho doesn’t have a lot of pace (neither built) and seems to struggle with distribution when the game is fast or the  opposition presses high. In trying to accommodate him, Kante is out of his usual position and is only half the player he once was.

I just wrote something similar in the matchday thread too.

We might be okay against Fulham next week, but will get absolutely spanked by City if we start with the exact same personnel in the same formation the following week.

The problem is that fixing this problem isn’t easy. Fabregas may fare even worse against City. 

4 minutes ago, Lord said:

We might be okay against Fulham next week, but will get absolutely spanked by City if we start with the exact same personnel in the same formation the following week.

The problem is that fixing this problem isn’t easy. Fabregas may fare even worse against City. 

We play a Thursday game as well - Fulham game could easily become a draw and we may suddenly find ourselves outside the top4.

Was man marked out of the game by a barely trying Alli .... thought Barkley should have been brought on for him at the half with Kante taking that CM role. If the team is to rely on Jorginho as the midfield general he needs to learn how to operate effectively while being heavily pressed.... especially as he seems to offers next to nothing aside from his passing( not trying to be harsh, just realistic).

It was bound to happen - lot of criticism coming for Sarri and Jorginho after how badly things went yesterday. And it is valid criticism so I only hope Sarri takes it on board and isn't too stubborn.

Folk have been scratching their heads at questioning playing Kante out of position but where we went on the unbeaten run and Jorginho was pulling the strings in many of those games it was hard to argue. But now it has gone wrong in such a big game, if he continues with the same set-up, the criticism will build and Sarri will soon find out what the pressure in the PL is all about. I for one would like to see Kante return to his normal position in the next game.

If teams dedicate their game plan to stopping Jorginho, surely the correct response to that would be getting more players like Jorginho (players who actually can play one touch football and understands the coach’s principles) - not get rid of him or remove him from his best position?

I do agree that yesterday wasn’t Jorginho’s finest performance, he was one of many who underperformed, but this all feels a bit backward thinking. Hazard isn’t called upon to be dropped when he’s man marked out of a game - it’s the other players who need to get on his level.

29 minutes ago, opinionsarelike said:

If teams dedicate their game plan to stopping Jorginho, surely the correct response to that would be getting more players like Jorginho (players who actually can play one touch football and understands the coach’s principles) - not get rid of him or remove him from his best position?

I do agree that yesterday wasn’t Jorginho’s finest performance, he was one of many who underperformed, but this all feels a bit backward thinking. Hazard isn’t called upon to be dropped when he’s man marked out of a game - it’s the other players who need to get on his level.

It was a bad day for pretty much everyone yesterday but Jorginho and Luiz were two of the worst and I would drop or "rest" both next game. You're right, Hazard isn't called to get dropped after an off game but I don't ever recall him being a liability like Luiz and Jorginho were yesterday and Hazard on his day is the best player in the PL so he is always going to have more leeway. Think it would be wise to take him out of the firing line for a bit and try other options.

@Nibs

The concept is the same for me. A player with such talents that the opposing teams dedicate their game plan to stop him, those are the players we need more of. Different roles and all that, but that’s the backwards thinking I don’t understand. 

As of now, Jorginho is both a reward (since he’s one of the most magnificent one touch passers in the world and has very good press resistance) and a risk (since he isn’t a very good defender). I am adamant that a team of Chelsea’s stature shouldn’t think risk before reward. 

For me, h but most of his 90-100 passes per game are those short passes side ways as means to keep the ball. It's not threatening and opposition tend to let most of those passes go as it's purely keeping possession in non-threatening areas. He's a talented player, but I can't record he put in through balls over defenders like Cesc could. If I was after goals against a compact defence, I'd put on Cesc and take Jorginho off. He's not a good defender, and circumstances put him 1 on 1 against a very fast player yesterday, still should have taken the card and not costing us the goal. He still needs time to adapt, so let's not get too harsh on him.

40 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

For me, h but most of his 90-100 passes per game are those short passes side ways as means to keep the ball. It's not threatening and opposition tend to let most of those passes go as it's purely keeping possession in non-threatening areas. He's a talented player, but I can't record he put in through balls over defenders like Cesc could. If I was after goals against a compact defence, I'd put on Cesc and take Jorginho off. He's not a good defender, and circumstances put him 1 on 1 against a very fast player yesterday, still should have taken the card and not costing us the goal. He still needs time to adapt, so let's not get too harsh on him.

These passes are what moves the opposition around and creates holes for passes to be made. He's not just doing it for fun.

You guys need to analyse his passing at Napoli those side ways and short passing have great meaning if the player's around you are doing what they supposed to do. Those short passing is meant to beat the press and pull team's out of their shape, they seem pointless but are very effective when your team mates do their jobs in passing and moving

You guys need to analyse his passing at Napoli those side ways and short passing have great meaning if the player's around you are doing what they supposed to do. Those short passing is meant to beat the press and pull team's out of their shape, they seem pointless but are very effective when your team mates do their jobs in passing and moving

You guys need to analyse his passing at Napoli those side ways and short passing have great meaning if the player's around you are doing what they supposed to do. Those short passing is meant to beat the press and pull team's out of their shape, they seem pointless but are very effective when your team mates do their jobs in passing and moving

I think we can all see what an asset Jorginho is or can be when things go to plan. But now teams are working him out and both Everton and now Spurs have pretty much nullified him, until he learns to adapt, his game looks a bit limited and that is why I would sit him out for a couple of games and try something different.

25 minutes ago, Brutos said:

You guys need to analyse his passing at Napoli those side ways and short passing have great meaning if the player's around you are doing what they supposed to do. Those short passing is meant to beat the press and pull team's out of their shape, they seem pointless but are very effective when your team mates do their jobs in passing and moving

Glad someone else get it. He isn’t the problem in the middle of the park and neither is Kovacic. You only need to watch how city plays to recognise you don’t need physicality to make the system work. A trio of Fernandinho, Silva and De Bruyne have no business dominating the middle of the park in a league where big strong players are valued by most managers, but it works because a Silva/Bernardo Silva are press resistant and hardly loose the ball. That is why Kovacic is very important next to Jorginho , and would start most games for me. It is that 3rd person in midfield that we are lacking but you keep getting fans stating that Kante has to play, and he has to be moved to his right position. Well the system can’t/ and won’t work because his role doesn’t exist in this system.

34 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Glad someone else get it. He isn’t the problem in the middle of the park and neither is Kovacic. You only need to watch how city plays to recognise you don’t need physicality to make the system work. A trio of Fernandinho, Silva and De Bruyne have no business dominating the middle of the park in a league where big strong players are valued by most managers, but it works because a Silva/Bernardo Silva are press resistant and hardly loose the ball. That is why Kovacic is very important next to Jorginho , and would start most games for me. It is that 3rd person in midfield that we are lacking but you keep getting fans stating that Kante has to play, and he has to be moved to his right position. Well the system can’t/ and won’t work because his role doesn’t exist in this system.

Silva and De Bruyne are on a different level to Kovacic and Jorginho.

36 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Silva and De Bruyne are on a different level to Kovacic and Jorginho.

What about Milner and Henderson? or any of Liverpool's midfielders? 

I think our problems are collective, and the biggest issue is movement on and off the ball.

We have not figured out when and where to press, so the front 3 either don't press at all, or don't press aggressively enough

Kante or Kovacic tries to back up the weak press of the front 3, but because we haven't pressed aggresively enough, the opposition have time and space to play into midfield. 

Then Alonso or Azpiliucueta join the press and all off a sudden there is gaping holes down the flanks, which means jorginho, Luiz, or rudiger get pulled out of position to cover, leaving free men in around the penalty area. 

It happened for the free kick for the 1st goal, and sons goal aswell. It also happened for both goals against United, and about 5 or 6 times on the 1st half against arsenal. 

When we have the ball, we also struggle with movement and the timing of runs, kante and kovacic/Barkley need to do more to get the ball off the centre backs, when teams are man marking jorginho, and jorginho and the back 4 need to keep their composure, dont resort to knocking an aimless ball long, and actually invite the opposition to press us higher and higher until there is a pass on the break the press line and get at their back 4/5. 

It's a work in progress, and it's going to take time, as it has at any club that wants to play this way. 

Im pretty sure though that in Serie A teams also did the same thing to Jorginho so it shouldn't be something new for him or Sarri. 

1 hour ago, jack_super_class said:

Im pretty sure though that in Serie A teams also did the same thing to Jorginho so it shouldn't be something new for him or Sarri. 

They did, but Napoli were well drilled and had everyone else performing. Chelsea have a half-arsed press in the front 3, a far from lethal strike force and an incredibly shaky defense. It'll take time but we'll get there.

What about Milner and Henderson? or any of Liverpool's midfielders? 
I think our problems are collective, and the biggest issue is movement on and off the ball.
We have not figured out when and where to press, so the front 3 either don't press at all, or don't press aggressively enough
Kante or Kovacic tries to back up the weak press of the front 3, but because we haven't pressed aggresively enough, the opposition have time and space to play into midfield. 
Then Alonso or Azpiliucueta join the press and all off a sudden there is gaping holes down the flanks, which means jorginho, Luiz, or rudiger get pulled out of position to cover, leaving free men in around the penalty area. 
It happened for the free kick for the 1st goal, and sons goal aswell. It also happened for both goals against United, and about 5 or 6 times on the 1st half against arsenal. 
When we have the ball, we also struggle with movement and the timing of runs, kante and kovacic/Barkley need to do more to get the ball off the centre backs, when teams are man marking jorginho, and jorginho and the back 4 need to keep their composure, dont resort to knocking an aimless ball long, and actually invite the opposition to press us higher and higher until there is a pass on the break the press line and get at their back 4/5. 
It's a work in progress, and it's going to take time, as it has at any club that wants to play this way. 

Great points and something noticed also there is simply no movement from the midfield or front 3 and their attempts to press is pathetic at best, morata look's around then goes no one follows him, then Kante or Kovacic try Which leaves hole's while Willian and Hazard look on then the full backs go and leave space .....etc and can go on. This is why Sarri was so pissed on the touchline he you see they weren't carrying out his instructions

10 minutes ago, Brutos said:

 

Great points and something noticed also there is simply no movement from the midfield or front 3 and their attempts to press is pathetic at best, morata look's around then goes no one follows him, then Kante or Kovacic try Which leaves hole's while Willian and Hazard look on then the full backs go and leave space .....etc and can go on. This is why Sarri was so pissed on the touchline he you see they weren't carrying out his instructions

 

100% agree. The movement and press are fundamental to Sarri's style of play. Too many times in the attacking phase (as Sarri likes to say) the movement is not quick enough or good enough. 

When we lose the ball the first defensive phase is the press to win the ball back, but as of the last few games the movement and press have been poor. Sarri has been going on and on about the poor defensive phase for weeks.

 

Mama Jorginho is already a Chelsea legend.