19 hours ago, just said:

 

Interceptions this season. But as with all stats doesn't tell the whole story. The big one here from the defensive viewpoint is the amount of times Jorginho is dribbled past per game on average compared to Kante and Kovacic. There is a big difference. It is the major reason Jorgi has to use an interception based defensive strategy. Defending that way carries a risk tarriff. Looks good when it works, but when it doesn't, its often costly. David Luiz played a very similar interception based defensive game. Gambling on winning the ball in areas he didn't need to, when just holding his position and marking an opponent was the better, safer defensive option. 

Well said sir.

Maldini: “If I have to make a tackle, then I have already made a mistake.”

Being forced to intercept, because if you don't then you're essentially out of the game due to your inability to track individually or recover.

It's why Lampard used Kante as a lone number 6 instead, but realistically we needed someone tidier on the ball. It's a big problem position for us given the way Tuchel wants to play.

4 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

Well said sir.

Maldini: “If I have to make a tackle, then I have already made a mistake.”

Being forced to intercept, because if you don't then you're essentially out of the game due to your inability to track individually or recover.

It's why Lampard used Kante as a lone number 6 instead, but realistically we needed someone tidier on the ball. It's a big problem position for us given the way Tuchel wants to play.

That for me was the moment doubts about Lampard started to creep in. Up until the first lockdown I was happy with his work despite so so results.

How can anyone look at a player who's main attributes are energy and proactive pressing and decide the best place for him is sitting DM?

At best he's wasted (because he just sits and doesn't do what he does best) and at worst a liability (because his instincts take him out of position and leave a gaping hole).

On 25/04/2022 at 00:11, Gol15 said:

Does any team have a player like Fabregas right now? Does Man City have a DM that makes 10 assists per season? Liverpool? Real Madrid's Casemiro maybe? Stop living in the past.

You're moving the goalposts. The teams you mentioned don't play with a DM like Jorginho who gets a lot of the ball. Casemiro doesn't dictate play he's the water-carrier/interceptor DM and even he has more assists than Jorginho(this season) by an extra 1, Thiago and Fabinho isn't there to dictate plays, their job there is to move the ball to the front 3 as quickly as possible

I'm using Fabregas as the example because he's the closest thing to Jorginho in the relatively same 343 system. Obviously the team dynamics would differ a bit but overall their positions are deep lying playmakers. 

Sadly you are right though, the highest assisting midfielder these days is probably Pogba. Playmaking midfielders are scarce now

On 25/04/2022 at 00:17, Argo said:

I disagree. Cesc played with prime Matic sitting and sheiding him (and both Matic/Mikel in a big game) in a Jose system where his main task was to look further forward and feed the strikers. 

Jorginho is tasked to control games in a front foot system with Kante/Kova being the more aggressive type player infront of him.

Neither could have succesfully done the role of the other.

Fabregas also played with Kante in a 343 Conte system and came up with double figures rotating with Matic.

That rotating combo of Matic/Kante/Fabregas helped us won the league. 

11 minutes ago, Deino said:

You're moving the goalposts. The teams you mentioned don't play with a DM like Jorginho who gets a lot of the ball. Casemiro doesn't dictate play he's the water-carrier/interceptor DM and even he has more assists than Jorginho(this season) by an extra 1, Thiago and Fabinho isn't there to dictate plays, their job there is to move the ball to the front 3 as quickly as possible

I'm using Fabregas as the example because he's the closest thing to Jorginho in the relatively same 343 system. Obviously the team dynamics would differ a bit but overall their positions are deep lying playmakers. 

Sadly you are right though, the highest assisting midfielder these days is probably Pogba. Playmaking midfielders are scarce now

I didn't move any goalposts I'm stating that no big team has a player that is playing as the DM and making tons of assists right now.

If you had watched Napoli with Jorginho, you would have seen that we bought that kind of a player for possession football that can play 1-2 and that can get balls into space but that is simply not playing like Fabregas. The two are not really close and Fabregas in our current system where we press high and win the ball back often even in the final third wouldn't have the same kind of passes as he did when he could find D.Costa or Willian running a huge counter-attack, we simply don't play like that anymore.

The player that is somewhat similar to Jorginho has been Busquets, both make their teams tick but neither is making the final ball.

5 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I didn't move any goalposts I'm stating that no big team has a player that is playing as the DM and making tons of assists right now.

If you had watched Napoli with Jorginho, you would have seen that we bought that kind of a player for possession football that can play 1-2 and that can get balls into space but that is simply not playing like Fabregas. The two are not really close and Fabregas in our current system where we press high and win the ball back often even in the final third wouldn't have the same kind of passes as he did when he could find D.Costa or Willian running a huge counter-attack, we simply don't play like that anymore.

The player that is somewhat similar to Jorginho has been Busquets, both make their teams tick but neither is making the final ball.

I don’t usually venture into the Jorginho thread as it carries a serious health warning. Fabregas would make a telling contribution in either system, he simply was that good. Possibly one of my favourite Chelsea goals ever shows his vision

 

43 minutes ago, charierre said:

I don’t usually venture into the Jorginho thread as it carries a serious health warning. Fabregas would make a telling contribution in either system, he simply was that good. Possibly one of my favourite Chelsea goals ever shows his vision

 

Let's all agree on that. Of course I'm not saying that a player like Fabregas wouldn't fit in, I'm just saying that a significant amount of his highlighted passes were longer balls when we were on the counter attack and those things we wouldn't really see right now. Would he be capable of passing the ball and making passes that lead to goals or chances? Yes, no question about it.

If my memory is right he even played as a false 9 at some point, not sure if it was for Spain or Barcelona but he was that good that it was as simple as just to have him on the pitch but at his best he was given a more free role while Busquets was behind him and while Matic was behind him.

Jorginho isn't that versatile and he simply doesn't have that kind of a vision. He has only 1 position, the deepest central midfielder. Fabregas? Yes he did play that but he could play almost anywhere centrally on the pitch... I don't remember if it was him or Nasri that used come deep and collect the ball for Arsenal's midfield but when I watched Sarri's Napoli I never thought that Jorginho reminds me of Fabregas, just saying.

Edited April 26, 20224 yr by Gol15

At least we look defensively sound every time Jorginho plays 😴 Everton had 3 clear chances today and midfield was nowhere to be seen. 

3 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

At least we look defensively sound every time Jorginho plays 😴 Everton had 3 clear chances today and midfield was nowhere to be seen. 

You mean after he went off for Kovacic?

Jorginho wants to stay but he has to go.

SELL SELL SELL. How he ended up 3rd place in the Ballon d'Or is a serious mystery.

He was awful today.  

As soon as we would go forward, the ball would end up out wide, Jorginho would find space in the middle, throw his arms in the air asking for a pass, but what does he do? just another sideways pass out wide to the other side. When he has that much space, is it too much to ask to run forward a bit to drag a defender out of position? Everton's defence didn't even bother moving when Jorginho was finding space because they knew he woudn't bother advancing on them and would just take the safe option. Zero invention, just recycling possession for the sake of it.

28 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

You mean after he went off for Kovacic?

Better not waste time 😅

9 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

He was awful today.  

As soon as we would go forward, the ball would end up out wide, Jorginho would find space in the middle, throw his arms in the air asking for a pass, but what does he do? just another sideways pass out wide to the other side. When he has that much space, is it too much to ask to run forward a bit to drag a defender out of position? Everton's defence didn't even bother moving when Jorginho was finding space because they knew he woudn't bother advancing on them and would just take the safe option. Zero invention, just recycling possession for the sake of it.

It's like he wants someone to make a run so that he can pass but instead they are waiting for him to run with the ball instead, something which he hasn't really done before. Nobody taking the responsibility there shows that Tuchel has a real problem when it comes to our attacking and he has had that for quite some time.

Once again Jorginho being a scapegoat for no reason. He went off at half time and we had the exact same issues except we were defensively worse, almost as if he isn’t the problem….

2 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

He was awful today.  

As soon as we would go forward, the ball would end up out wide, Jorginho would find space in the middle, throw his arms in the air asking for a pass, but what does he do? just another sideways pass out wide to the other side. When he has that much space, is it too much to ask to run forward a bit to drag a defender out of position? Everton's defence didn't even bother moving when Jorginho was finding space because they knew he woudn't bother advancing on them and would just take the safe option. Zero invention, just recycling possession for the sake of it.

His CV in totality

2 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Once again Jorginho being a scapegoat for no reason. He went off at half time and we had the exact same issues except we were defensively worse, almost as if he isn’t the problem….

Was he injured?

21 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Once again Jorginho being a scapegoat for no reason. He went off at half time and we had the exact same issues except we were defensively worse, almost as if he isn’t the problem….

We literally lost the match as soon as he was subbed off, never mind the first goal Everton had another good chance just some minute afterwards could have been 2:0 by minute 50' 😅

Moving thread out of respect...

33 minutes ago, Argo said:

Neither do I, but when you're the only ever present for two champions of Europe in the space of a month and a half the odds are you're not a lucky passenger.

But you can be lucky though. Jorginho didn't play a major part for our CL run, he just did average performances. Did he get MOTM in any of those games?

Point is...3rd place? For you to be 3rd place, you at least had to be one of our top players for us that season. Like he was running the sh*t. Let's be real, he wasn't. And it was a slap in the face for example Kante, who worked his socks off defensively.

33 minutes ago, Argo said:

He was certainly more crucial than Kovacic in the run, Kova didn't play a minute against Real and 'only' the last 10 of the final.

I was talking about the overall season. But you kinda didn't answer my question. Fine, I'll take Kovacic out of the equation.

Do you think Jorginho was better last season over Kante, Mount, Mendy, Silva and Rudiger?

Jorginho is a likeable guy, I get it. But if we want to challenge City and Liverpool - he is simply not good enough to help us get there. FFS we can't even trust him against teams like Brentford and Arsenal basically ANY team with quick players who can press, as he will be roasted, cooked alive.

He is also prone to making terrible errors.

Edited May 5, 20224 yr by Mana

Not a single attribute better than Mikel.

18 hours ago, Mana said:

Moving thread out of respect...

But you can be lucky though. Jorginho didn't play a major part for our CL run, he just did average performances. Did he get MOTM in any of those games?

No he didn't, you don't dominate elite teams with a two man midfield if one of said men were average.

We also only conceded 4 times times entire way and Italy (with him as line DM infront of a back 4 which he apparently can't do) broke a defensive record, doesn't exactly scream the defensive liability he's getting portrayed as.

18 hours ago, Mana said:

Point is...3rd place? For you to be 3rd place, you at least had to be one of our top players for us that season. Like he was running the sh*t. Let's be real, he wasn't. And it was a slap in the face for example Kante, who worked his socks off defensively.

The Balon Dor takes into account who turns up and delivers performances when it matters. Hence Cannavaro winning in 2006 despite Ronaldinho quite clearly being the best on a week by week basis or Modric winning it a few years back.

If they based on a week by week basis the likes of Bruno Fernandes would have got a nomination last season.

18 hours ago, Mana said:

I was talking about the overall season. But you kinda didn't answer my question. Fine, I'll take Kovacic out of the equation.

 

 

Well I was talking the most relevant metric ala the tournament we got over the line in. And yes i believe he was one of the key reasons we managed to dominate those games so comfortably.

My word not enough, how about someone who was directly up against him in one of said games?

https://www.thickaccent.com/2021/12/03/toni-kroos-issues-high-praise-for-jorginho-amid-ballon-dor-backlash/

18 hours ago, Mana said:

Jorginho is a likeable guy, I get it. But if we want to challenge City and Liverpool - he is simply not good enough to help us get there. FFS we can't even trust him against teams like Brentford and Arsenal basically ANY team with quick players who can press, as he will be roasted, cooked alive.

At the risk of jinxing this for next week, there's no faster team on the planet than Liverpool and I can recall one bad game (the 5-3) he's had against them in all his years here.

Now if you wanted to bring the league into it and if we can win one with him in it that's a different debate and ofcourse he's still yet to prove that (replacing him with Declan Rice isn't the answer though) in the country but as far as those European Cups are concerned I'm not having this narrative that he was some sort of lucky chancer in the right place at the right time for both us and Italy, especially given how dominant both teams were (in those tournaments).

Played my first game of walking football last night and it was okay.

It was nice to see at first hand what Jorginho does every week.

 

13 hours ago, Nibs said:

Played my first game of walking football last night and it was okay.

It was nice to see at first hand what Jorginho does every week.

 

😁 Its funny because its true...

I've been thinking about trying that, but I cant see how its possible to not run or get stuck in. I know for a fact in the first 5 minutes I will smash someone and get a telling off..

10 hours ago, dkw said:

😁 Its funny because its true...

I've been thinking about trying that, but I cant see how its possible to not run or get stuck in. I know for a fact in the first 5 minutes I will smash someone and get a telling off..

I played 5 a side in a proper league up until I was 55 but all the joints are on that downward spiral, especially the knees. Like you, I thought I can't play football at walking pace, but it isn't actually walking. Players do run a bit or at least jog and there is tackling. Probably varies depending where you play it, but I would recommend it to any over 50's, who still feel that urge to kick a ball about. I will carry on until the joints say NO MORE!

 

Looked better in the brief time we had him and Kova in midfield together.

12 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Looked better in the brief time we had him and Kova in midfield together.

It's been our best partnership in midfield for a while now. Every other combination seems to have too many weaknesses, but Jorginho and Kovacic have good chemistry. It's not perfect, and when Kante is at his best, you can't leave him out, but when it comes to consistency, it's these two that seem to be the best choice.