13 hours ago, Dixon said:

This 'why do we struggle to break down teams who get a lot of men behind the ball and moans about lack of midfield creativity?'  is consistently brought up in match day threads.  Well what do we expect when we have Kova, Kante and Jorgino?  We can't say it's not Kova's job to create or score, the same with the other two, then bitch about lack of creativity from them. 

Doesn't matter how creative you are if your front three can't score.

I miss the times when the midfielders could actually score some f*king goals. Lampard, Ballack, Essien.  Obi Mikel had  being mocked for his drought for years. Now we have 3 midfielders like him and we rate them as world class. Football nowadays is all about running man. It's terrible, 

 

While the criticism about not scoring / shooting enough is justified (I don’t think it’s a big deal for reasons explained elsewhere by others but it’s a separate discussion ), this idea that he doesn’t produce incisive passes is just wrong. He does pretty much every time he plays, it’s just (as others have pointed out and I have before) that those receiving aren’t making them count often enough. I promise it’s the last time I’ll make this point. 

1 hour ago, Droopy said:

I miss the times when the midfielders could actually score some f*king goals. Lampard, Ballack, Essien.  Obi Mikel had  being mocked for his drought for years. Now we have 3 midfielders like him and we rate them as world class. Football nowadays is all about running man. It's terrible, 

 

The current  3 are a horrible combination of players who do not compliment each other at all! 

7 hours ago, Droopy said:

I miss the times when the midfielders could actually score some f*king goals. Lampard, Ballack, Essien.  Obi Mikel had  being mocked for his drought for years. Now we have 3 midfielders like him and we rate them as world class. Football nowadays is all about running man. It's terrible, 

 

I've said it before but give it 10 years fullbacks will be getting judged on goals.

21 minutes ago, Argo said:

I've said it before but give it 10 years fullbacks will be getting judged on goals.

Nah, it'll always be seen as a bonus if any defenders chip in with goals or assists. Same was as a forward like Drogba could  chip in with useful defensive work.  

How many goals come from the Liverpool midfielders again? 

Obviously Kovacic could do with a more attacking threat, but I think this is a bit of a lazy argument. I wish he could shoot more, during his Inter days he was actually a threat coming into the box and scored quite a few goals outside of the box. 

9 hours ago, Dixon said:

Nah, it'll always be seen as a bonus if any defenders chip in with goals or assists. Same was as a forward like Drogba could  chip in with useful defensive work.  

Are you sure? Would you pass on a chance to buy Alexander & Robertson from Liverpool? We are talking 20+ assists in a season. There is a reason either player wouldn’t command less than £80m in the market.

Personally feel the game has evolved & offensive fullbacks are priced at a premium.

Probably his best game this season, he looked tired before getting off but the important thing is that he didn't get injured.

 

Really good until the last 10 minutes before he was taken off, I think he got injured by that Pogba tackle myself, didn't seem the same after that. 

Also, he 100% needs to shoot in some situations, keeps trying to walk it into the box, their defence at one point gave him all the time in the world to shoot and he still tried to slide it in. 

My man of the match today, lost count of the number of times he received the ball surrounded by red shirts in his own half and dribbled or passed his way out of trouble and broke us out of United's high press. Almost has that Hazard-like ability to put his shoulder down and burst past people on the half turn.

Amazing imo. Beats any kind of press Utd thought of. 

How nobody wanted him other than us is almost ridiculous! 

This will be the most hated post ever and it might be totally off BUT he really really lacks of end product. It might not be his game. His game is the midfield battle which he did very well. He also went through their midfield a couple of times. That was great. 

However there were 2 occasions in the game where he darted through missed his pass and in 5 seconds ManU were about to score. One time he went through 3 players and he was stripped of the ball and par a bad ManU pass we were saved. This is something that a deep midfield player can't really do. It is his job to protect the back four. He knows Jorginho can't catch any one so he can't really rely on that. If you dart through you need to finish the move successfully. Maybe with Kante you get away with it. 

We got no end product of him on the day as we seldom do. He isn't the smartest midfielder as he doesn't see consequences. 

I will end this sh*tty post in a positive. I really love the guy. I love the way he moves with the ball, his darting runs are sexy as hell. He has an eye for a killer pass. He looks the part. 

Make it what you will. For me he isn't a backbone or a creator that wins POTY. 

1 hour ago, evissy said:

This will be the most hated post ever and it might be totally off BUT he really really lacks of end product. It might not be his game. His game is the midfield battle which he did very well. He also went through their midfield a couple of times. That was great. 

However there were 2 occasions in the game where he darted through missed his pass and in 5 seconds ManU were about to score. One time he went through 3 players and he was stripped of the ball and par a bad ManU pass we were saved. This is something that a deep midfield player can't really do. It is his job to protect the back four. He knows Jorginho can't catch any one so he can't really rely on that. If you dart through you need to finish the move successfully. Maybe with Kante you get away with it. 

We got no end product of him on the day as we seldom do. He isn't the smartest midfielder as he doesn't see consequences. 

I will end this sh*tty post in a positive. I really love the guy. I love the way he moves with the ball, his darting runs are sexy as hell. He has an eye for a killer pass. He looks the part. 

Make it what you will. For me he isn't a backbone or a creator that wins POTY. 

Well, I think it's a good sign that the discussion has changed from "not even a squad player or worth buying, because he has no end product" to "not POTY, because he has no end product". But the thing with the lack of end product is kindof  by now.

You'll come around too, sooner or later. 

1 hour ago, evissy said:

This will be the most hated post ever and it might be totally off BUT he really really lacks of end product. It might not be his game. His game is the midfield battle which he did very well. He also went through their midfield a couple of times. That was great. 

However there were 2 occasions in the game where he darted through missed his pass and in 5 seconds ManU were about to score. One time he went through 3 players and he was stripped of the ball and par a bad ManU pass we were saved. This is something that a deep midfield player can't really do. It is his job to protect the back four. He knows Jorginho can't catch any one so he can't really rely on that. If you dart through you need to finish the move successfully. Maybe with Kante you get away with it. 

We got no end product of him on the day as we seldom do. He isn't the smartest midfielder as he doesn't see consequences. 

I will end this sh*tty post in a positive. I really love the guy. I love the way he moves with the ball, his darting runs are sexy as hell. He has an eye for a killer pass. He looks the part. 

Make it what you will. For me he isn't a backbone or a creator that wins POTY. 

I think that is harsh, more often than not, he gets through 2 or 3 challenges in midfield and we keep possesion further up the field. It would be great if he found that killer ball at the end more often, but there will be times he loses possesion aswell, he is only human, and with another midfielder deeper than him, he has licence to try and break through the press with his dribbling, its pribably the strongest part of his game.

He gets through a lot of the dirty work in midfield, and while we are scoring goals, i dont think there is much point looking at him, kante, or Jorginho, and questioning whether or not they offer enough going forward. 

 

I think people also get blinded by the runs. They are brilliant and something almost no other Prem player do but so many times Mateo is then badly out of position and the team gets very vulnerable. Maybe a smarter play from his teammates can help but he is not very disciplined taking in count of his position.

If you dart around players you better make it count is what I mean. More advanced players have the luxury of losing the ball. 

I don't try to be too harsh on Mateo but this POTY talk has made me think and made me comment. Maybe he deserves it. I can't name a player that deserves it more.. Mount or maybe Azpilicueta. 

If I was Frank I would be telling Mateo to have a pop when outside of the box, there were a few occasions yesterday when he had every opportunity to do so.

The guy should easily have a minimum of 5 goals a season.  

1 minute ago, Malcolm9 said:

If I was Frank I would be telling Mateo to have a pop when outside of the box, there were a few occasions yesterday when he had every opportunity to do so.

The guy should easily have a minimum of 5 goals a season.  

He needs to shoot more often, usually he hesitates too much and loses the chance.

And he certainly can score from outside of the box, just remember those two goals against Everton and Valencia. Beautiful.

27 minutes ago, evissy said:

I think people also get blinded by the runs. They are brilliant and something almost no other Prem player do but so many times Mateo is then badly out of position and the team gets very vulnerable. Maybe a smarter play from his teammates can help but he is not very disciplined taking in count of his position.

If you dart around players you better make it count is what I mean. More advanced players have the luxury of losing the ball. 

I don't try to be too harsh on Mateo but this POTY talk has made me think and made me comment. Maybe he deserves it. I can't name a player that deserves it more.. Mount or maybe Azpilicueta. 

Everybody knows that he lacks end product. This isn't news. He's still the best when it comes to carrying the ball along with Willian.

Before the pandemic Tammy was by far our most important player that made the most difference out there, but now it's anyone's game for the POTY since Tammy has been much worse after the break. Kova doesn't solve a game by his own, if he knew how to do that he would have been in the starting 11 for Real Madrid or he would have been in the starting lineup for his national team, but that's good for us because IMO he still has room to improve, he isn't an old puppy that can't learn new tricks...

Next year he's entering his prime, with Lampard coaching I have this big faith that he will be taking long range shots next season. He doesn't have the natural instinct to pass the final ball but with the right amount of encouragement he can end up scoring tons from outside the box, his goal vs Valencia showed that he does have a nice shoot ability that is hidden. Lampard needs to train him to have more guts because he looks like he's just shy to shoot and that's a bit uncommon for a midfielder, specially since one stereotype about players that come from the Balkans is that they are mainly either strong defenders or good shooters from distance.

IMO next season he will score 10 goals after Lampard has had more time working with him. 

19 minutes ago, evissy said:

I think people also get blinded by the runs. They are brilliant and something almost no other Prem player do but so many times Mateo is then badly out of position and the team gets very vulnerable. Maybe a smarter play from his teammates can help but he is not very disciplined taking in count of his position.

If you dart around players you better make it count is what I mean. More advanced players have the luxury of losing the ball. 

I don't try to be too harsh on Mateo but this POTY talk has made me think and made me comment. Maybe he deserves it. I can't name a player that deserves it more.. Mount or maybe Azpilicueta. 

Some validity in your criticism but I would say he’s been our most consistently good player over the course of the season and deserves POTY on balance . I view the deficiencies you and others mention (with justification) positively since he probably has at least two seasons till he reaches his peak and that = plenty of time to fix them, improve further.  As a mental exercise, If we take the progress he’s made this season over last and extrapolate it over another 2 seasons, we probably end up with one of the best midfielders in the world, though I suspect the learning curve will get less steep.

4 minutes ago, Dean said:

Some validity in your criticism but I would say he’s been our most consistently good player over the course of the season and deserves POTY on balance . I view the deficiencies you and others mention (with justification) positively since he probably has at least two seasons till he reaches his peak and that = plenty of time to fix them, improve further.  As a mental exercise, If we take the progress he’s made this season over last and extrapolate it over another 2 seasons, we probably end up with one of the best midfielders in the world, though I suspect the learning curve will get less steep.

This is a fair assessment. I really hope he stays on this trajectory. I would love him to be our main man and maybe this season he actually was. I just don't eat this POTY without chewing first. 

24 minutes ago, evissy said:

This is a fair assessment. I really hope he stays on this trajectory. I would love him to be our main man and maybe this season he actually was. I just don't eat this POTY without chewing first. 

If Willian won POTY before due to freekick goals and workrate then Kovacic has a shout too for being the most consistent throughout. 

Was back to his best at Wembley. I'd be interested to see him in this new 4-3-3  with attacking 8s we have been trying recently. When he first joined last year he was very willing to run beyond the striker and create an option. Would be curious to see if that could be replicated.

My one question mark on him playing that role is his engine. He seems to run out of juice a bit after 70 mins and he can get a bit lazy tracking back when his energy is low. Something that needs to be addressed in the off season in my view.

13 hours ago, evissy said:

This will be the most hated post ever and it might be totally off BUT he really really lacks of end product. It might not be his game. His game is the midfield battle which he did very well. He also went through their midfield a couple of times. That was great. 

However there were 2 occasions in the game where he darted through missed his pass and in 5 seconds ManU were about to score. One time he went through 3 players and he was stripped of the ball and par a bad ManU pass we were saved. This is something that a deep midfield player can't really do. It is his job to protect the back four. He knows Jorginho can't catch any one so he can't really rely on that. If you dart through you need to finish the move successfully. Maybe with Kante you get away with it. 

We got no end product of him on the day as we seldom do. He isn't the smartest midfielder as he doesn't see consequences. 

I will end this sh*tty post in a positive. I really love the guy. I love the way he moves with the ball, his darting runs are sexy as hell. He has an eye for a killer pass. He looks the part. 

Make it what you will. For me he isn't a backbone or a creator that wins POTY. 

I think there has been a significant improvement from Kovacic this season, than there was last season, especially in end product. Remember his ball to Kante against City? He's produced stuff like that all season. I think you're being incredibly harsh on his end product and basing it after just the last game. 

He's got excellent stats this season compared to last that show his end product has definitely improved and he's getting the ball forward more. I know stats are not the be all end all, and I wish he would shoot more in situations against United, had two opportunities where the players leaned off him and he chose to slide it in. I think we're much better with him in the side than without it, even if he doesn't exactly have the vision and long range passing of Cesc Fabregas. 

I think he's excellent, should definitely shoot more when the app arises, me moves through the midfield like no one else in thee PL, needs to add more goals, A fully fit Kante ,Kova, Mount, Havertz.