I disagree with people who think he's better at number 10 than playing deeper in a 8 positon. You have to give him time especially since he's just come back from Covid too. I thought he was poor in the first half but better in the second half. I was actually surprised Lampard started him considering Leeds are quite attacking and run alot and we have the game on Tuesday which he could play 90 mins in.

39 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Which leads me to the next point. If we play Kai (or Mason) the whole season and only bring on Kovacic against the strong sides, we are basically setting him up for failure. Not giving Mateo the necessary gametime to find a rythm only to throw him into matches against top sides is a bit much to ask, even though he performed admirably under such circumstances (Frank acknowledged that too). The game against Sevilla we had Jorgi (whos performance also went unnoticed), Kai and Kova. I wasn't really missing Mason when watching that game, so I don't really understand why his (or Kantés) starting spot should be set in stone.

Our biggest wins this season so far have been 4:0 against Sevilla and Palace (if we are to consider 4:0 vs Krasnodar even if it's a smaller team, then it's also in that list), Havertz and Jorginho were in the starting lineup in both of those games (+Krasnodar).

Clearly we have multiple lineups that are strong and we don't really know what is our strongest lineup yet. Maybe we won't know till the next season all things considered, I think Lampard will keep rotating players and because of injuries we are still waiting how a fully fit front 3 of Pulisic - Werner - Ziyech looks like, there have been some combinations that could work but that so far we haven't tried yet either.

Ok, we’ve had 11 games in the league plus Europe.

To be brutally honest, Havertz have been slightly disappointing so far - I certainly hoped for more.

Having said that, I know he can become a world class player and I’m happy to wait for him to come good but still, I would like to see him change games because he’s clearly capable of that. For me, Kovacic is the better player right now. I think we need to be patient with Havertz, we may not even see the best of him until next season.

Edited December 7, 20205 yr by dansubrosa

1 hour ago, dansubrosa said:

Ok, we’ve had 11 games in the league plus Europe.

To be brutally honest, Havertz have been slightly disappointing so far - I certainly hoped for more.

Having said that, I know he can become a world class player and I’m happy to wait for him to come good but still, I would like to see him change games because he’s clearly capable of that. For me, Kovacic is the better player right now. I think we need to be patient with Havertz, we may not even see the best of him until next season.

I am not disappointed at all. For me he has been very good for us. Frank just explained Kai had bad symptoms of covid19. Before that he was very good. It will take time to hit his best form and he is still learning the team, the league and living in England. 

I watched and learned a lot about him before he signed and for me he's looked very good so far considering all the above. 

I feel people are put off by his demeanor and his non-explosive way. That is all okay. You like what you like. 

Looking at his numbers even at Chelsea so far are impressive. And he is not leaking goals. Even against Leeds where he clearly looked uncomfortable he tracked back and did the work. For an attacking player he is surprisingly good at ball recoveries. 

Comparing him again to Kovacic is not very fruitful as the players are so different from each other. The main difference is Kai is making goals and Kovacic isn't. Apart from couple of games of late. 

Goals are money and Kai knows goals. Super simplistic way of looking at it but some of you should take a look at it. 

Havertz is not everyone's cup of tea and that is fine. 

Havertz so far scored 4 goals and gave 4 assists. If that is from 11 games in a new league, in a new country, in a new team it is pretty good. 

In comparison Kovacic has no goals and 2 assists. Again not comparing the two too much as they are completely different type playing in a similar position. 

You can think what the coach who happens to be one of the all time leading scoring midfielder is the thinking playing Havertz in front of Kovacic. 

Anyway we are pretty sure lucky to have both in the side. 

He does have a touch of the Michael Ballack about him - that casual and languid style. 

Frank isn't concerned and think he will be a top top player so that is good enough for me.

Chillwell, Werner, Silva and Ziyech have been very good, to say Havertz has been very good is far fetched.

1 hour ago, evissy said:

Havertz so far scored 4 goals and gave 4 assists. If that is from 11 games in a new league, in a new country, in a new team it is pretty good. 

In comparison Kovacic has no goals and 2 assists. Again not comparing the two too much as they are completely different type playing in a similar position. 

You can think what the coach who happens to be one of the all time leading scoring midfielder is the thinking playing Havertz in front of Kovacic. 

Anyway we are pretty sure lucky to have both in the side. 

In total Kai made 4 goals, 4 assists in 14 games.

Mount in his first season had 8 goals and 6 assists in over 50 games played, Kovacic had 2 assists in over 50 games too.

It's pretty clear who has the highest ceiling of the 3, I just hope Kai keeps being healthy.

That hattrick against Barnsley reserves was a thing of beauty 😂 that is literally the game some people hold onto to make Havertz stats look great ffs. Just watch the bloody game than being obsessed with stats.

The guy is a good player but if anyone thinks he has been very good or is a world class player on his showing so far must think Ziyech has player of the year already wrapped up. Ziyech has been class, Silva has been top draw at the back, Chillwell looks like a player who can rival Robertson has the best LB in the league, that's on the season so far.

14 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

That hattrick against Barnsley reserves was a thing of beauty 😂 that is literally the game some people hold onto to make Havertz stats look great ffs. Just watch the bloody game than being obsessed with stats.

The guy is a good player but if anyone thinks he has been very good or is a world class player on his showing so far must think Ziyech has player of the year already wrapped up. Ziyech has been class, Silva has been top draw at the back, Chillwell looks like a player who can rival Robertson has the best LB in the league, that's on the season so far.

Some of us watch the game Ernie, digest what we saw with our own eyes and that's how we form our opinion.

Seems others watch bits of the game but at the same time have their heads buried in piles of stats and data that means they form a different opinion and then bombard everyone else with these stats when questioned.

I guess whatever makes you happy.........................

23 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

That hattrick against Barnsley reserves was a thing of beauty 😂 that is literally the game some people hold onto to make Havertz stats look great ffs. Just watch the bloody game than being obsessed with stats.

The guy is a good player but if anyone thinks he has been very good or is a world class player on his showing so far must think Ziyech has player of the year already wrapped up. Ziyech has been class, Silva has been top draw at the back, Chillwell looks like a player who can rival Robertson has the best LB in the league, that's on the season so far.

Most of us have watched the games. Who said he was world class? I think honestly he is going to be in some years. Frank for sure is the right person to lead him into that way. 

Eyetest is one thing, stats are another thing. The other is objective, the other subjective. 

Anyway Havertz is far from reaching his peak even the one he had at Leverkusen and as he already stated himself the Premier league is far more competitive than the Bundesliga. 

He was one of our best players early on as he was for Team Germany in a couple of matches before the illness. I know your eyetest doesn't say that but for me it does. 

 

 

 

I reckon Covid has set him back massively. I think it was the wrong decision to start him against Leeds but I can kind of understand why Frank tried it. It was just too early. Against your Burnleys he is the better choice but to play through a press and get up the pitch quickly atm Kova is the better option. Kova does sh*t himself in front of goal though and a top team needs goals from midfield but Kova is in great form. 

37 minutes ago, evissy said:

Most of us have watched the games. Who said he was world class? I think honestly he is going to be in some years. Frank for sure is the right person to lead him into that way. 

Eyetest is one thing, stats are another thing. The other is objective, the other subjective. 

Anyway Havertz is far from reaching his peak even the one he had at Leverkusen and as he already stated himself the Premier league is far more competitive than the Bundesliga. 

He was one of our best players early on as he was for Team Germany in a couple of matches before the illness. I know your eyetest doesn't say that but for me it does. 

 

 

 

Your standards cant be very high then if you thought Havertz was one of our best players. Oh yeah it must be the Barnsley game your talking about 😂

Edited December 7, 20205 yr by Ernie_blue

Can't say I'm blown away by Havertz in front of goal,  he has had a few chances and either headed wide or avoided the shot.

He may become a world class footballer though not yet.

I think the pace of the premiership means he has less time on the ball, he can tackle yet is ponderous with his long legged tackles and likely to get booked.

He is an attacking midfielder built like a striker so can never put in a great midfield performance against top opposition in a three, this will become a dilemma for Frank.

Against weaker teams we will probably get away with it and he may well create an assist or goal, though is not a typically mobile hardworking midfielder.

 

Edited December 7, 20205 yr by strider6004

Just now, Strider6003 said:

Can't say I'm blown away by Havertz in front of goal,  he has had a few chances and either headed wide or avoided the shot.

He may become a world class footballer though not yet.

I think the pace of the premiership means he has less time on the ball, he can tackle yet is ponderous with his long legged tackles and likely to get booked.

He is an attacking midfielder built like a striker so can never put in a great midfield performance against top opposition in a three, this will become a dilemma for Frank.

Against weaker teams we will probably get away with it and he may well create an assist or goal, though it is not a typically mobile hardworking midfielder.

 

He's just getting warmed up  We have a generational talent in Kai and Pulisic is similar, their ceiling is so high.

I was wondering if Kai could allow us to play a different system, a 4-1-1 with Kai behind Tammy.

Not every match as currently think the 4-3-3 is working well yet perhaps when plan A is not working that might reap dividends.

3 hours ago, rtwelch said:

I reckon Covid has set him back massively. I think it was the wrong decision to start him against Leeds but I can kind of understand why Frank tried it. It was just too early. Against your Burnleys he is the better choice but to play through a press and get up the pitch quickly atm Kova is the better option. Kova does sh*t himself in front of goal though and a top team needs goals from midfield but Kova is in great form. 

He had severe symptoms, it no doubt has had an impact. Doesn't help when you are trying to also adapt to a new league. 

He hasn't stunk up the joint, he's never really looked bad and you can clearly see the potential is there. I'm not worried at all.

I don't know why people heap so much expectation on a 21 year old. Let alone one that is living abroad for the first time experiencing a new culture and language.

7 hours ago, rtwelch said:

I reckon Covid has set him back massively. I think it was the wrong decision to start him against Leeds but I can kind of understand why Frank tried it. It was just too early. Against your Burnleys he is the better choice but to play through a press and get up the pitch quickly atm Kova is the better option. Kova does sh*t himself in front of goal though and a top team needs goals from midfield but Kova is in great form. 

I don't think it's that drastic. He's just had a bad game that's all. 

Listen, it wasn't Bakayoko vs Watford away which was the worst individual performance I've ever seen in a Chelsea shirt. He's not even close to reaching levels like that, so there's no need to worry. 21 years old, lots of time and will have the time. 

I'm in the same camp as others, I think it will take a season to get him going, he doesn't have to start looking like a 75 million player at the age of 21. If he was 25 or over then yes, but the transfer fee was obviously valued with his age. 

16 hours ago, JM7 said:

He does have a touch of the Michael Ballack about him - that casual and languid style. 

Hes more like Ozil than Ballack.

8 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Hes more like Ozil than Ballack.

Bit harsh in my view. Give him a bit of time to settle in and recover from the virus that's killed 1.5m people this year before writing him off. 

He did well in the opening games, he'll improve as well.

I'll also say that Mason Mount has done a great job of lifting his game to deal with the competition. He has gone to another level. The grass isn't always greener.

.

Edited December 8, 20205 yr by EdinburghBlue

On 07/12/2020 at 11:00, Vagabond said:

@Edinburgh Blue
That's a strange kind of argument and an appeal to authority. By that logic Paul Pogba gets bullied in midfield, because Roy Keane hates him. Since otherwise he wouldn't hate him, no?

I think if you listen to Roy Keanes opinion on Pogba it’s not that he gets bullied or he thinks he’s a bad player, it’s that he isn’t consistent. That doesn’t constitute “hate” as you put it. Not sure if you’re getting confused between who Keane and Souness are. The latter is far from a fan. Keanes issue is around his attitude and his consistently, but he clearly rates him as a player as he stated literally a few months ago.

 

 

19 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I think if you listen to Roy Keanes opinion on Pogba it’s not that he gets bullied or he thinks he’s a bad player, it’s that he isn’t consistent. That doesn’t constitute “hate” as you put it. Not sure if you’re getting confused between who Keane and Souness are. The latter is far from a fan. Keanes issue is around his attitude and his consistently, but he clearly rates him as a player as he stated literally a few months ago.

 

 

The most protected player in the world, whenever he gets a bit of criticism it's always conflated with scapegoating or bullying. I've never heard so many excuses for an 80 million pound player. 

Imagine Ronaldo going on a podcast and saying "Fans expect me to do too much" after playing like w**k at Madrid for years? 

Edited December 8, 20205 yr by Slojo