10 minutes ago, Brutos said:

Jorginho is not the problem it's the player's around him not fulfilling the requirements of the system to offer him options. When he gets on the ball in the last few games player's are not offering any movement they are running away from the ball not towards it, no pass and move to create space to nullify the press.

This is in my opinion true. The opposing teams find Jorginho's talents to be so great that they sacrifice anywhere from one to three players to take him out of the game, a sacrifice only given to the absolute best players in the world. That's not a Jorginho problem, that's a problem for the other nine outfield players to solve, with the help of Sarri.

Our other players should be revering in the extra spaces that opens up because of Jorginho, not crumble like toothpicks because of it.

Absolute f**king rubbish.

It's been evident for quite some time that we set up in a way which constantly exposes the back four - the midfield doesn't protect the defence at all. We were always going to be found out in some horrible way - personally I was hoping it was going to be Man City rather than bloody Tottenham.

Press high and man-mark Jorginho and we have no response to it. We've been getting away with it largely through opposition teams missing one-on-ones with Kepa and a lot of complete sitters (remember the first half against Arsenal?).

It was a pretty experiment for a little while but we absolutely have to adapt. As pleasant as Sarri seems, he needs to prove himself to be more than a one-trick pony; otherwise we may as well sack him now and save ourselves the pain of being predictable and vulnerable for the next eighteen months.

6 hours ago, Giordano_Bruno said:

tbf, it's not that the system fails us, it's Jorginho. I believe Cesc is much better and faster when they put him on pressure. He also gives better one touch passes and most importantly - long passes. I've failed to see some good long passes by the Italian. 

Not that Cesc is perfect, but Jorginho is particularly bad with the high press. 

We can't play all the time on the ground, we all know that, and our long balling has sucked recently - Luiz few balls a game, Rudi once or twice, and that's it. Jorginho is lacking this feature in his game and we suffer. He doesn't deliver assists and passes behind the back of the opponent.

time to bring Cesc in. 

I'm a big Fabregas fan, but he would suffer a lot worse than Jorginho does when put under pressure. Fabregas is incredibly slow to react when pressured, more now than ever now that he is getting older. I also don't believe Fabregas has better one touch passing either, Jorginho is a master at it, and one bad game yesterday isn't going to make me think any differently. Also, Fabregas doesn't have the legs to cope long term in that position. Fabregas is easy to play through, one pass through Fabregas and it he is out of the game and the defence is exposed.

13 hours ago, KeepCalmCarryOn said:

1 defeat knives out

I think it's got more to do with the manner of the defeat, we were completely outplayed.

Good comment from elsewhere:

 

Although Sarri has had a great start at Chelsea and this result won’t change that, I do feel like he got a lot of things wrong today.

It was the Everton match where you first see a side properly attempt to stop Jorginho by pushing high and pressing the passing channels in towards him. Spurs are a very good pressing side with players who initiate it very quickly and I think that was the first deciding factor, they cut off the centre backs and Jorginho and limited options to move the ball forward

Then there is the benefit of hindsight, but morata really didn’t work today his runs weren’t effective against a quick high line and he didn’t bring other players into the game. Giroud probably would have been the better option and that isn’t being said because he got a goal, it’s his link up play, he’s quite good at linking up with Hazard and I do believe there was space behind the Spurs midfield to take advantage of.

Eriksen’s movement was brilliant again, he really helped pick out the space in the Chelsea shape.

1 hour ago, opinionsarelike said:

This is in my opinion true. The opposing teams find Jorginho's talents to be so great that they sacrifice anywhere from one to three players to take him out of the game, a sacrifice only given to the absolute best players in the world. That's not a Jorginho problem, that's a problem for the other nine outfield players to solve, with the help of Sarri.

Our other players should be revering in the extra spaces that opens up because of Jorginho, not crumble like toothpicks because of it.

One to three? One has been plenty lately. Jorginho doesn't have the legs or physicality to rid himself of one guy man-marking him.

Our opposition have two players they need to worry about, take Jorginho out and put two players on Hazard. If you do that successfully we are in huge trouble every time

 

3 hours ago, Brutos said:

Jorginho is not the problem it's the player's around him not fulfilling the requirements of the system to offer him options. When he gets on the ball in the last few games player's are not offering any movement they are running away from the ball not towards it, no pass and move to create space to nullify the press. Look at how Napoli played when they got the ball jorginho had options they would pass the ball in short triangle to beat the press we are not doing that the player's seem scared, afriad Conte mentioned this several times they seem scared. Also player's showed no fight no grit no passion like it was just another game yesterday, there comes a time when we need to start changing the sqaud slowly. Unfortunately we can't spend like city so we will have to do something different

Well, now that I look at my post I see I could have left the wrong impression. Of course, Jorginho is not the problem. What I meant is that when the team is not playing well, the players are frozen statues, lack of moving, lack of precision, poor passing etc, Cesc is better than Jorginho with his long passes and his immediate decisions. Jorginho right now is miles away of the Spanish, especially in dictating the pace and the tempo of the team,  but when the team is struggling with the simplest plays, like yesterday, Cesc could just throw the balls deep better, finding Hazard, Willian, Morata. 

When Sarri sees that, he shold react and put Cesc in. 

they are both irrelevant defensively. Cesc would have most likely made a foul yesterday against Son. that was lack of knowledge for this league by Jorginho. 

Also people saying we should change system after this result, so we change after every bad results or try fix the current system?

I remember Gary Neville making this statement that when pep suffered in his first season he never changed his system once he stuck to his principles and that exactly what I want Sarri to do. We are changing from what 12+ years of being a pragmatic team to all out possession based attacking team. One defeat shouldn't make you abandon your principles and am sure it won't with Sarri.

We will get battered again this season that's what changing system does we will however continue to improve and get better and with the right additions we will achieve our goals

13 minutes ago, Brutos said:

Also people saying we should change system after this result, so we change after every bad results or try fix the current system?

I remember Gary Neville making this statement that when pep suffered in his first season he never changed his system once he stuck to his principles and that exactly what I want Sarri to do. We are changing from what 12+ years of being a pragmatic team to all out possession based attacking team. One defeat shouldn't make you abandon your principles and am sure it won't with Sarri.

We will get battered again this season that's what changing system does we will however continue to improve and get better and with the right additions we will achieve our goals

It took Guardiola hundreds of millions of pounds to get a squad that was suited to his system and able to win trophies.
I don't think Sarri will get the same kind of support here.

I've said this for forever but if you want Sarri/Guardiola-football to work in this league you basically need the perfect squad that are 100% fine tuned for the style of football.
Right now we have about 5 or 6 players that are suited to the system in the whole squad so one can clearly understand where the problem is laying.

1 hour ago, jack_super_class said:

I think it's got more to do with the manner of the defeat, we were completely outplayed.

we played the same way with almost same squad.

he said we need players which we do and the PLAYERS flopped.

im 100% behind sarri 

as for the squad, it needs work, we need some more class and to ship a couple out.

8 hours ago, Giordano_Bruno said:

tbf, it's not that the system fails us, it's Jorginho. I believe Cesc is much better and faster when they put him on pressure. He also gives better one touch passes and most importantly - long passes. I've failed to see some good long passes by the Italian. 

Not that Cesc is perfect, but Jorginho is particularly bad with the high press. 

We can't play all the time on the ground, we all know that, and our long balling has sucked recently - Luiz few balls a game, Rudi once or twice, and that's it. Jorginho is lacking this feature in his game and we suffer. He doesn't deliver assists and passes behind the back of the opponent.

time to bring Cesc in. 

I would love to know how you came to that conclusion, as its cesc's problems under pressure that saw him slated and dropped last season, it most definitely is not one of his strengths. 

Edited November 25, 20187 yr by dkw

55 minutes ago, Brutos said:

Also people saying we should change system after this result, so we change after every bad results or try fix the current system?

I remember Gary Neville making this statement that when pep suffered in his first season he never changed his system once he stuck to his principles and that exactly what I want Sarri to do. We are changing from what 12+ years of being a pragmatic team to all out possession based attacking team. One defeat shouldn't make you abandon your principles and am sure it won't with Sarri.

We will get battered again this season that's what changing system does we will however continue to improve and get better and with the right additions we will achieve our goals

5

I think it's more to do with the way we've been playing for weeks rather than just one result... 

It's clear that we aren't getting the best out of Kante in this system and Jorginho doesn't do a great job of covering ground or getting the ball back. 

Think defeat was a wake up call for the club.

All well and good being unbeaten but if you’re not winning against the best teams what’s the point?

We’ve been playing a bunch of part timers in Europe and only drawn against Liverpool, United, Everton and now lost to Spurs.

We finished 10th a couple of years back and 6th last year... the title win with Conte was the anomaly.

Make no mistake, Sarri’s got his work cut out if he wants to finish top 4 and stubbornly picking the same players and the same system over and over even when it’s not working isn’t going to help his cause. 

You've got to go back to the Burnley game for our last really good performance, we’ve not played well for the whole of November and it’s starting to feel like you’re watching the same performance on repeat.

Sarri has to address the midfield, it isn’t working. It’s offering little to no defensive cover. Jorginho’s influence has started to be completely nullified. Kovacic isn’t really doing much of anything of note and Kante still has a question mark over him whether he would be better off back at the base of midfield.

Another issue I saw yesterday was you could park multiple double decker buses between our defence and midfielder is like they just vanished every time Tottenham won the ball. We also don't press as a team it's like some player's press others are in two minds if they should we shows our mentality is still not correct which Sarri pointed out multiple times.

Didn’t take him long to try Eden as a false 9 - a ploy used by the last 2 managers when they had no striking options available or it seemed just wanted to piss us all off.  As with JM & AC it was a waste of time offering nothing attacking wise. 

Hope he’s got better ideas than that one to fix the current midfield & defending issues that have been laid bare for all to see in the last 2 prem games or the much sought after top 4 finish will become top 6 sooner than later.

2 hours ago, Brutos said:

Also people saying we should change system after this result, so we change after every bad results or try fix the current system?

I remember Gary Neville making this statement that when pep suffered in his first season he never changed his system once he stuck to his principles and that exactly what I want Sarri to do. We are changing from what 12+ years of being a pragmatic team to all out possession based attacking team. One defeat shouldn't make you abandon your principles and am sure it won't with Sarri.

We will get battered again this season that's what changing system does we will however continue to improve and get better and with the right additions we will achieve our goals

Again in no way or shape comprable.......Sarri aint Pep for one.....and secondly pep got to spend spend and spend until EVERYTHING was in place........good luck with that at Chelsea. And thirdly, the Word flexible do not exist? He absolutely must persist if its not ready? Lets hope this was a one off ( eventhough we have been rather crap for several games now ), otherwise he will find it very very hard if he aint able to mix it up. Make no mistake, we all back him......but both he and the Club must support eachother.

14 minutes ago, General said:

Didn’t take him long to try Eden as a false 9 - a ploy used by the last 2 managers when they had no striking options available or it seemed just wanted to piss us all off.  As with JM & AC it was a waste of time offering nothing attacking wise. 

Hope he’s got better ideas than that one to fix the current midfield & defending issues that have been laid bare for all to see in the last 2 prem games or the much sought after top 4 finish will become top 6 sooner than later.

WHat does that tell us? That the board keep failing giving a helping hand in crucial areas.........Conte got slated for this btw. We simply do not have a quality consistent strike force.......can only make Sarri's job harder.

4 hours ago, PloKoon13 said:

Absolute f**king rubbish.

It's been evident for quite some time that we set up in a way which constantly exposes the back four - the midfield doesn't protect the defence at all. We were always going to be found out in some horrible way - personally I was hoping it was going to be Man City rather than bloody Tottenham.

Press high and man-mark Jorginho and we have no response to it. We've been getting away with it largely through opposition teams missing one-on-ones with Kepa and a lot of complete sitters (remember the first half against Arsenal?).

It was a pretty experiment for a little while but we absolutely have to adapt. As pleasant as Sarri seems, he needs to prove himself to be more than a one-trick pony; otherwise we may as well sack him now and save ourselves the pain of being predictable and vulnerable for the next eighteen months.

 

Bang on the f**king money.

The people who want us to drastically adapt after yesterday’s game; what were your thoughts after Mourinho pragmatically changed us from a free flowing attack to a scraping team after our pasting by Spuds in the 14-15 season?

Because if we were to do something as drastic now, we might as well sack Sarri and reset/restart the whole process, cause there’s no coming back to free flowing football after a change like that, not with the same manager at least.

Edited November 25, 20187 yr by opinionsarelike

So I get the feeling some fans want to sack Sarri is that what I am see here?

2 minutes ago, opinionsarelike said:

The people who want us to drastically adapt after yesterday’s game; what were your thoughts after Mourinho pragmatically changed us from a free flowing attack to a scraping team after our pasting by Spuds in the 14-15 season?

Because if we’re to do something as drastic now, we might as well sack Sarri and restart the whole process, cause there’s no coming back to free flowing football after a change like that, not with the same manager at least.

So if this so called blip we are in continues we should just stick with it beacuse? This is when Sarri must earn his corn if we keep on performing like we have for 4 games now.......look at Poch, he constantly mix it up with great success. You play to your strenghts.......last season was such a horror show that so many of us just want free flowing footy, who gives a f**k if it gets us nowhere....is that where we are now?

Just now, Brutos said:

So I get the feeling some fans want to sack Sarri is that what I am see here?

f**k no.......that will be utter pathetic. Maybe we will get our act together and roll on again. But if we dont, we will look forward what Sarri can do.....can he ditch his formation? Ready to mix it up? Will the Club back him to ease the transition? Time will tell.

Your straw men don’t bite, @atomis. I just asked a simple question. If you want us to be more pragmatic, that’s fine for me, football is a personal thing and people can have whatever opinion they want as far as I’m concerned.

As far as Poch having great success ... you do realize that Poch’s Spuds career is pretty much what Sarri’s Chelsea career will be if the latter doesn’t win any trophies?

Edited November 25, 20187 yr by opinionsarelike

5 minutes ago, opinionsarelike said:

Your straw men doesn’t bite, @atomis. I just asked a simple question. If you want us to be more pragmatic, that’s fine for me, football is a personal thing and people can have whatever opinion they want as far as I’m concerned.

As far as Poch having great success ... you do realize that Poch’s Spuds career is pretty much what Sarri’s Chelsea career will be if the latter doesn’t win any trophies?

I wasnt Dissing you.....we all have different opinions. Sure poch hasnt won sh*t....but he is a quality manager that knows how and when to mix it up. If he was at another Club in top 6 he would be more dangerous. He doesnt get to spend much at all and yet have utterly transformed spurs for the better.

I was all for Sarri when I heard the other names being linked after Conte as he was seen as a progressive coach.

What I see is like Conte it is like watching painting by numbers there is a system and it is all about the system, I yearn at times for some creativity like someone bursting through the middle and putting a striker one on one with the keeper. I don't see it happening in this system.

Given where we are when Jorginho is being closed down without support surely we need to vary it to get the opposition concerned by pumping the ball occasionally upfield and supporting our attackers. Then Jorginho has a moment to call the others out to give him movement when he is on the ball.  Currently we are very predictable that will not work enough for me. 

Spurs played 4 attacking players against us yesterday and two, Alli and Son were running through our lines of defenders at will, unless we can make them fear the long ball to their depleted midfield it is likely to become one-way traffic.

Will Sarri change or will be like Conte's, 'we need more intensity every match'.

I had high hopes for Sarri, but he very sadly looks like an elderly manager who:s never won anything and completely out of his depth. I've been saying for weeks that what he's doing makes no sense and now even some of England's greatest ever players are saying exactly that. How the hell can you play in the EPL with a midfield so completely lacking the very basic requirements of every midfield - provide protection to the defence and provide chances and goals in attack. It was a sad site watching the truly pathetic Jorginho looking like a snail trying to catch a Pigeon in his desperate attempts at defending while Kante was standing looking on 50 yards up the pitch. Playing Jorginho, the slowest midfielder in football in from of Luiz the slowest centre back in football is simpky clueless. How utterly shocking is it to hear great footballers now saying Kante is not worth a new contract. Yes, one of the worlds best players not even being good enough for a mediocre Chelsea team. That is the damage Sarri has done to Kante with his bonkers ideas. Anf don't even get me started on yet another invisable performance for Kova. We've got a bunch of lightweights who can bully low level opposition but shrivel up when anyone half decent team has a go at them. We've been getting away with a lot this season and yesterday's result was flattering in the extreme. Spurs could easily have won by ,6 or 7. 

Sarri:s only chance of saving his job is to admit he's got it very badly wrong and ditches Jorginho and Kova right now and goes back to some basic common sense football to see us thru to the end of the season when a massive clearout is needed and we start all over again. 

 

Edited November 25, 20187 yr by Dixon