3 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

Everybody in a job does what their line managers, senior directors, and ultimately owners wants. It's whether these people execute those objectives competently.

Surely the ownership did not state that to implement their plan of reducing the age of the squad and increase the marketeability we were to go into South America and pick up half a dozen kids and pay well over the top for them.

I am not giving Boehly and Co. a free pass here but we have to wake up to fact that we effectively replenished our U21 squad with a load of kids that we paid way over the top for and bigged up as if it were some major coup that we had pulled off, making these all out to be first team squad players, which they are clearly not ready for.

Let's not have an agenda get in the way of fact:

Casadei, Angelo, Santos, Ogochukwu, Jackson, Carney, Palmer, Badiashile are all great value signings. 

Now the sporting directors, owners, and coaches need to collaborate and find the best solution to add some experience. And plug some holes created by consistent injuries. 

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I don't see any other choice to be honest, and at the very least it'll put some players back in their strongest positions. This team simply cannot defend, whether its down to personnel, tactics or a bit of both. Something needs to change. 

Sanchez

Badiashile Silva Colwill

James Caicedo Enzo Maatsen

Palmer  Sterling

Jackson

 

It's not that the team cannot defend. It's that we can't put out a consistent defensive unit due to fitness issues. And Silva, Enzo, Caicedo are forced to play every minute. I'd be happy to see 3 at the back whenever we lack midfield options. It will constrict the zones Caicedo and Enzo will need to cover.

Would even swop Jackson for Gallagher and use Palmer as a 9 in big away games.

18 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

The one thing I don't want us to do is to go back to a back 3. That would mean that the project already failed so Tuchel should just come back. Keep playing a back 4 till it works, try out 4-4-2, be more defensive and play counter-attacking football more but don't go back to a back 3 formation.

It's clearly not working though. We are leaking goals left, right, and center. The players still look like they aren't coached to be doing what they should be doing. 

My argument for the 3 at the back is merely to mitigate certain liabilities (Silva's lack of pace, Disasi out of the XI, James back to his best at RWB, Maatsen included at LWB, Colwill at his strongest LCB, Sterling and Palmer as inside forwards.) 

There is a case that personnel is a factor just as much as tactics. We can't forget Arteta even played a back 3 when he first started until both his players bought into his methods. 

1 hour ago, timetowaste said:

I'd give him until the summer and m, if we're showing no improvement, bring Jose back home.

José will bring Lukaku back with him .😂

8 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It's clearly not working though. We are leaking goals left, right, and center. The players still look like they aren't coached to be doing what they should be doing. 

My argument for the 3 at the back is merely to mitigate certain liabilities (Silva's lack of pace, Disasi out of the XI, James back to his best at RWB, Maatsen included at LWB, Colwill at his strongest LCB, Sterling and Palmer as inside forwards.) 

There is a case that personnel is a factor just as much as tactics. We can't forget Arteta even played a back 3 when he first started until both his players bought into his methods. 

I'd feel sad seeing Silva dropped, he's also still a very good defender, but maybe his lack of pace is a contributing factor to us leaking goals. It's looking unlikely he's staying next season so I'd probably start phasing him out or perhaps as you said go to a back 3 again.
 

If we're sticking with a 4-3-3 I'd personally like to see us with Lavia as a DM with Enzo and Caicedo in front of him because at the moment a midfield 2 with Gallagher/Palmer playing basically as a 10 is not offering any protection to the back 4.

Once Lavia, Chilwell and Nkunku are fit I'd like to see us play something along the lines of this:

2 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

I'd feel sad seeing Silva dropped, he's also still a very good defender, but maybe his lack of pace is a contributing factor to us leaking goals. It's looking unlikely he's staying next season so I'd probably start phasing him out or perhaps as you said go to a back 3 again.
 

If we're sticking with a 4-3-3 I'd personally like to see us with Lavia as a DM with Enzo and Caicedo in front of him because at the moment a midfield 2 with Gallagher/Palmer playing basically as a 10 is not offering any protection to the back 4.

Once Lavia, Chilwell and Nkunku are fit I'd like to see us play something along the lines of this:

Lots wrong with that imo.

- Chilwell + Mudryk will run into each other. 

- Midfield lacks production. 

- Lavia isn't a defensive midfielder. 

- Nkunku as a lone ST is a waste. Best as a connector from midfield to attack. 

 

54 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It's clearly not working though. We are leaking goals left, right, and center. The players still look like they aren't coached to be doing what they should be doing. 

My argument for the 3 at the back is merely to mitigate certain liabilities (Silva's lack of pace, Disasi out of the XI, James back to his best at RWB, Maatsen included at LWB, Colwill at his strongest LCB, Sterling and Palmer as inside forwards.) 

There is a case that personnel is a factor just as much as tactics. We can't forget Arteta even played a back 3 when he first started until both his players bought into his methods. 

Every big team plays with a back 4. We shouldn't go backwards because even if it gives us some results, in the long run we would be prolonging the adaptation to how we should be playing with this young team. And it still won't matter as we clearly can't finish above top 8.

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Every big team plays with a back 4. We shouldn't go backwards because even if it gives us some results, in the long run we would be prolonging the adaptation to how we should be playing with this young team. And it still won't matter as we clearly can't finish above top 8.

It isn't going backwards if it leads to a more stability, particularly if we continue with the same approach (build out from the back and be a possession oriented side on the front foot). It's just for the time being to build some sort of consistency, IE Arteta's first several months at Arsenal. 

The only way it would be going backwards is if we continue to buy players only tailored for that specific system or we sack Poch for a more defensive manager with the current players at our disposal. 

Edited December 7, 20232 yr by Sconnie Blue

1 hour ago, venom2011 said:

Let's not have an agenda get in the way of fact:

Casadei, Angelo, Santos, Ogochukwu, Jackson, Carney, Palmer, Badiashile are all great value signings. 

Now the sporting directors, owners, and coaches need to collaborate and find the best solution to add some experience. And plug some holes created by consistent injuries. 

Great value by what Metric?

Given some Leicester supporters are calling Casadei the worst player they've had in years and they unanimously don't think he's good enough for the championship right now I'm not sure where the value is.  Carney and Badiashile have done nothing here,  Carney had done nothing before signing, Santos can't get in a poor Forest team and Jackson was heading to Bournemouth for £20m before they pulled the plug on him 6 months earlier.

We've spent over £200m on that cohort and with the exception of Palmer I don't think you can state any of them are great value or bargains on paper.

Edited December 7, 20232 yr by Whats_The_Mata?

2 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It isn't going backwards if it leads to a more stability, particularly if we continue with the same approach (build out from the back and be a possession oriented side on the front foot). It's just for the time being to build some sort of consistency, IE Arteta's first several months at Arsenal. 

The only way it would be going backwards is if we continue to buy players only tailored for that specific system, IE Tuchel. 

It would be a false sense of stability though. I'm only speculating but the moment Poch changes it back to how we should be playing it's the same process all over again.

Try and copy Emery's Villa or Newcastle instead.

12 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

It would be a false sense of stability though. I'm only speculating but the moment Poch changes it back to how we should be playing it's the same process all over again.

Try and copy Emery's Villa or Newcastle instead.

If Arteta can do it then Poch really isn't the manager I thought he was. Unless Clearlake really do f**k him and continue on buying youngsters, it should be no problem for a manager of Poch's experience to play how he wants to play after some structure has been in place. 

 

Edited December 7, 20232 yr by Sconnie Blue

25 minutes ago, Whats_The_Mata? said:

Great value by what Metric?

Given some Leicester supporters are calling Casadei the worst player they've had in years and they unanimously don't think he's good enough for the championship right now I'm not sure where the value is.  Carney and Badiashile have done nothing here,  Carney had done nothing before signing, Santos can't get in a poor Forest team and Jackson was heading to Bournemouth for £20m before they pulled the plug on him 6 months earlier.

We've spent over £200m on that cohort and with the exception of Palmer I don't think you can state any of them are great value or bargains on paper.

By the algorithmic metric of ability-potential-player cost. It's that simple. Just focusing on the names you brought up - Carney is an immense talent and 20m is pittance. Villa fans hated losing him, especially at that price. Brighton would have charged 50m. Badiashile (who you claim has done nothing) was our best defender for periods last season and was great by way of data and eye-test.

You can judge their respective values and also control for the fact that we are firmly an unbalanced team in transition. But to argue that the directors have not made some very good value signings is disingenuous. 

My argument is exactly that - All of them are bargains on paper. We'll have to see how they pan out in the long run.

I think our recruitment has been pretty good. We clearly need more experienced players but the players themselves are ok. 
 

Only ones I question are Cucurella and Jackson. 
 

Don’t forget that the club have also done an amazing job of shifting the deadwood. 

And acquiring a whole new set of deadwood.

9 minutes ago, Zeta said:

And acquiring a whole new set of deadwood.

Nothing that 8 years of elite coaching won't fix ...  

26 minutes ago, JM7 said:

I think our recruitment has been pretty good. We clearly need more experienced players but the players themselves are ok. 
 

Only ones I question are Cucurella and Jackson. 
 

Don’t forget that the club have also done an amazing job of shifting the deadwood. 

Jackson is a well worthy 2nd choice ST that can only grow. 

Cucurella just needs to go. We will 100% be in the market for a LB next summer. 

1 hour ago, venom2011 said:

By the algorithmic metric of ability-potential-player cost. It's that simple. Just focusing on the names you brought up - Carney is an immense talent and 20m is pittance. Villa fans hated losing him, especially at that price. Brighton would have charged 50m. Badiashile (who you claim has done nothing) was our best defender for periods last season and was great by way of data and eye-test.

You can judge their respective values and also control for the fact that we are firmly an unbalanced team in transition. But to argue that the directors have not made some very good value signings is disingenuous. 

My argument is exactly that - All of them are bargains on paper. We'll have to see how they pan out in the long run.

I'm not arguing it.

I'm stating it as a fact. Our business has been horrible.

I'm really not sure what Metric you can use to suggest a young player that couldn't get in the Villa team with 1 year left on his contract who didn't want to sign another was a bargain at £20m but I suspect it's the same fantasy metrics Todd uses which have little basis on actual football which is why we've spiraled backwards at a rate of knots the more signings come in despite having more £15-£25m young players than we've had wins since he bought the club.

With dozens of signings every window and over a billion spent you'll be able to pick out the odd performer but as a squad I think we have the lowest amount of talent per pound spent in the sports history.

It's frightening how bad our recruitment has been.

Edited December 7, 20232 yr by Whats_The_Mata?

Back 3 would be wrong. Utterly wrong. Colwill as wing back? Several players would be doing  better in different teams, but together as a unit we only look like a team in patches. Have to settle on a back 4 , one without  Silva. if James is only going to be fit sometimes and gusto also injured then another right back is needed 

‘Chelsea did buy badly, not the raw talent, but not paying enough attention to injury analysis. Lavia, carney, nkunku, gusto, madueke look like a waste of money, talent maybe but never available  that’s really on the owners and shows that they were sold a few bills of goods  

‘but Poch could still have a more settled, organised and sensible team  I’m not a supporter of him  for a variety of reasons  but of course if we had the results and the performances I’d be happily wrong  but we don’t have the performances so the mistakes are validated  

 

Disasi I may not be good enough but he is fit. We could play disasi and either Colwill or badiashile every week. Cucu could compete with maatsen   
 

10 minutes ago, ozboy said:

Back 3 would be wrong. Utterly wrong. Colwill as wing back? Several players would be doing  better in different teams, but together as a unit we only look like a team in patches. Have to settle on a back 4 , one without  Silva. if James is only going to be fit sometimes and gusto also injured then another right back is needed 

‘Chelsea did buy badly, not the raw talent, but not paying enough attention to injury analysis. Lavia, carney, nkunku, gusto, madueke look like a waste of money, talent maybe but never available  that’s really on the owners and shows that they were sold a few bills of goods  

‘but Poch could still have a more settled, organised and sensible team  I’m not a supporter of him  for a variety of reasons  but of course if we had the results and the performances I’d be happily wrong  but we don’t have the performances so the mistakes are validated  

 

Disasi I may not be good enough but he is fit. We could play disasi and either Colwill or badiashile every week. Cucu could compete with maatsen   
 

4-3-3:

                                           Sanchez
James/Gusto    Colwill/Disasi     Badiashile/Fofana(?)    Chilwell/Maatsen

                                           Lavia/Lesley

                        Caicedo/Carney      Enzo/Gallagher

Palmer/Madueke                                                       Sterling/Mudryk

                                  Nkunku/Jackson/Broja

 

4-4-2:

                                        Sanchez

James                Colwill              Badiashile                         Maatsen

Palmer            Caicedo                     Enzo                            Mudryk

                                 Nkunku    Sterling

 

Anything but a back 3 if you ask me, even as a temporary solution it only makes the younger players adapt to it and then it takes even more time to finally start playing how everyone else is playing. Sacrifice the whole season and finish top 10 but make progress like other teams did.

How comes Ange can transform Spurs so quickly, despite losing Harry Kane, yet the expectation for Poch this season seems to be top half?

3 minutes ago, Drogba1 said:

How comes Ange can transform Spurs so quickly, despite losing Harry Kane, yet the expectation for Poch this season seems to be top half?

To me its the case of taking over a team that has been together for a while with a few additions, happened with us many times and we just brought in a top manager to get more out of the players we had.

Poch has now come in and taken over a team that had barely played 6 months together and a lot of them haven't had a full season of competitive football in a top european league.

Edited December 7, 20232 yr by Sheva

I think people on here severely underestimate how difficult Pochettino's job is. 

What other manager in the Premier League walked into a completely brand new XI full of kids? Talk about Ange and Eddie Howe who to their credit have done good jobs especially Howe, but even they walked into experienced teams with a system while having players who have played together for seasons.   

Having a pre-season doesn't magically make your team experienced. 

Edited December 7, 20232 yr by Victor90

For those wanting Pochettino sacked now, who do we realistically bring in?

28 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

For those wanting Pochettino sacked now, who do we realistically bring in?

Some are suggesting Hans Flick. A proven winner is all well and good, but what's to say the same thing doesn't happen and then it's the same old cycle. It doesn't help the situation to keep firing coaches. 

2 hours ago, Drogba1 said:

How comes Ange can transform Spurs so quickly, despite losing Harry Kane, yet the expectation for Poch this season seems to be top half?

How is spurs doing without vdv n Madison? 🤭🤭🤭