He can't do it alone, he needs other players moving around him creating distractions so he has more space to operate. His best position is more of a 10 or second striker.

Maybe a bit early to say but I don't think he will fully realise his potential under Tuchel

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

He has to run games, to ask for the ball like Hazard once did. Either that or he'll be a loose cannon sadly.

He doesn't have half the talent Hazard did.

For all the generational talent bullsh*t people spout around Kai he's nowhere near as technically as gifted as Eden and he's nowhere near as physically gifted with pace or agility.

Now Kai is certainly talented don't get me wrong and he can be quality but I have no idea why people think he's this potential superstar who can decide games regularly for us.  As silky as he can be he doesn't have some of the tools the top players use to regularly cut apart defences.

Edited August 6, 20223 yr by HazardousChoice

He’s just another Oscar. Ok, definitely has talent, but ultimately is just another footballer. Still dining out in that CL final goal, for sure.

3 minutes ago, Snedger said:

He’s just another Oscar. Ok, definitely has talent, but ultimately is just another footballer. Still dining out in that CL final goal, for sure.

That is a really good, fair comparison and comment. Spot on.

This generational talent thing is nonsense. He's a decent footballer and nothing more. 

If he's playing up top the service in to him is dreadful, but if he's that good he does things on his own. 

He goes missing so often it's ridiculous.

When I think of generational talents, Gazza, Zidane, Ronaldo, Cristiano, Messi come to mind.  Does Havertz join that list? No, definitely not. True world class players impose themselves on play, Havertz doesn’t.

 

Maybe Bayern could be agreeable to buying him?

100M for him... jesus christ 

It's always frustrating watching him play because you know what eh is capable of but he doesn't bring it every week. I really hope he gets better because this is his third season at the club and it won't be long before people can't find anymore excuses for him.

He has been non existent .. but my lord does he have to feed on scraps.. TT wants our forward players to complete take on.. but where is the space ?

we are so slow to progress the opposition is generally in position and in a low block just waiting for us to make a mistake.. 

I don’t think any of our forward players will improve in this system.. this is even worse than Sarriball.. 

people talk about Havertz living of the UCL win .. I think so is TT.

11 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

He doesn't have half the talent Hazard did.

For all the generational talent bullsh*t people spout around Kai he's nowhere near as technically as gifted as Eden and he's nowhere near as physically gifted with pace or agility.

Now Kai is certainly talented don't get me wrong and he can be quality but I have no idea why people think he's this potential superstar who can decide games regularly for us.  As silky as he can be he doesn't have some of the tools the top players use to regularly cut apart defences.

In all honesty, did Hazard play at the same level at first or did he need to wait a couple of years for his turn to come as our biggest star?

I think it’s pretty clear that Havertz showed a lot of maturity while being very young, his decision making and movement and understanding of where the balls is going is something that you can’t really teach a young player, the difference is that he really didn’t have someone like Drogba to make his life easier, he literally came to be the star but our manager never built the team around him in attack part from simply putting him as a false 9 where he actually adapted and then we won the CL of course but in Germany he was less of a striker and more of a sucker punch AM that could end up looking as the striker, even Kaka had someone in front of him and lots of space to work with but as soon as Havertz showed how good of a game understanding he has, we signed Lukaku and forgot about him.

All I’m saying is that if he actually comes deep and organizes the attack more often, our attack will benefit from it. But he’s expected to be in the box for a header on goal, something that last match nobody could do we had tons of space and the only good ball in was Cucurella’s after min 80’ or something...

Broja deseves to start over Kai against Spurs. I still have hope Havertz will realize his immense potential and become a star but he hasn't earned the starting spot. Broja looked better in the last 15 minutes than Kai in the first 75.

8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

In all honesty, did Hazard play at the same level at first or did he need to wait a couple of years for his turn to come as our biggest star?

I think it’s pretty clear that Havertz showed a lot of maturity while being very young, his decision making and movement and understanding of where the balls is going is something that you can’t really teach a young player, the difference is that he really didn’t have someone like Drogba to make his life easier, he literally came to be the star but our manager never built the team around him in attack part from simply putting him as a false 9 where he actually adapted and then we won the CL of course but in Germany he was less of a striker and more of a sucker punch AM that could end up looking as the striker, even Kaka had someone in front of him and lots of space to work with but as soon as Havertz showed how good of a game understanding he has, we signed Lukaku and forgot about him.

All I’m saying is that if he actually comes deep and organizes the attack more often, our attack will benefit from it. But he’s expected to be in the box for a header on goal, something that last match nobody could do we had tons of space and the only good ball in was Cucurella’s after min 80’ or something...

So you think he is probably best as the middle of the 3 in say a 4-2-3-1 ? Or as one of the 2 in a 3-4-2-1 ?

Our players don't have a fair chance with the way we are set up. 

It's so clear to see that the balance between controlling a game and actually flooring the pedal to the metal sometimes has not been achieved. 

We really need Tuchel to ease up on the control. Hell let's go all Liverpool at start of Klopp's reign. 

We will concede a lot more but we have more than enough talent to bloody some noses and put them out of joint. Once we can establish we have an attack that can rip shreds out of teams then you let them do their thing and re-focus your back line as control freaks.

Just compartmentalise the different sectors of the team and let each give their best because at the moment them as a unit (team) is giving us less than the sum of their parts. 

8 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

So you think he is probably best as the middle of the 3 in say a 4-2-3-1 ? Or as one of the 2 in a 3-4-2-1 ?

His best position is behind the striker in a 4-2-3-1 like you say or in a 4-4-1-1, my comparison is Kaka that could run attacks and that had a great understanding of the game, Havertz is a slower player with less pace and less clinical in comparison but his highlights in Bundesliga suggest that if given the space he'll make the correct decision almost always. It's not a coincidence that he did well as a false 9, it's the position which is the most similar to his own as the AM player.  He will roam a lot and end up being on the wings at times but that's different from him being put wide to begin with, which player of his profile does well while playing more wide I mean all good players in that position don't look like Havertz at all.

 

Typical performance from him that I feel we’ve seen in maybe 80% of the games since he’s arrived. Honestly feels a bit reminiscent of Torres for me at this stage in that he just ghosts through entire games. 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

In all honesty, did Hazard play at the same level at first or did he need to wait a couple of years for his turn to come as our biggest star?

I think it’s pretty clear that Havertz showed a lot of maturity while being very young, his decision making and movement and understanding of where the balls is going is something that you can’t really teach a young player, the difference is that he really didn’t have someone like Drogba to make his life easier, he literally came to be the star but our manager never built the team around him in attack part from simply putting him as a false 9 where he actually adapted and then we won the CL of course but in Germany he was less of a striker and more of a sucker punch AM that could end up looking as the striker, even Kaka had someone in front of him and lots of space to work with but as soon as Havertz showed how good of a game understanding he has, we signed Lukaku and forgot about him.

All I’m saying is that if he actually comes deep and organizes the attack more often, our attack will benefit from it. But he’s expected to be in the box for a header on goal, something that last match nobody could do we had tons of space and the only good ball in was Cucurella’s after min 80’ or something...

What Eden did in that first game vs Wigan is better than any PL performance I've seen from Havertz and I'm not even joking. 

Eden was a generational talent. The eyes don't lie. Everyone could see it. Sensational player and a joy to watch from the very first minute in a Chelsea shirt to his last.

 

1 minute ago, timetowaste said:

 

Similarly with Mason Mount :

10 of his 11 goals last season in the PL were against the bottom six (10 starts + 2 sub appearances)

Against the Top 14:  1 goal (17 starts + 3 sub appearances)

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

In all honesty, did Hazard play at the same level at first or did he need to wait a couple of years for his turn to come as our biggest star?

Didn't Hazard get man of the match in his 1st 2 premier league starts?  I was at the Wigan game and it was clear to me he was something special then.

I thought it was immediately obvious he was far more talented and gifted than Mata and Oscar who he played with, 2 very good players in their own right but Hazard was something truly special and while it did take time for him to consistently put in world class performances (Mata was still our best player in Edens first season) I had absolutely no doubts about the frightening level of Ability Eden had.

I don't see it with Kai at all, that's the concern.  It isn't that he's not performing, or he's missing chances or the system isn't suiting him.

When he has the ball I just don't see this ridiculous level of talent he apparently has and haven't seen it at any point in watching him.  It's not that things aren't coming off for him like they sometimes don't for talented young players it's that he's finding it impossible to actually impose himself on the game he isn't beating or running past premier league defenders and he doesn't have the vision or eye for a pass to be that creative spark.

Of course he's still so young but It's so clear there's a massive gulf in natural ability between Kai and Eden and for someone built up as a generational talent who commanded a generational transfer fee I think everyone expected a bit more from Kai.

He definitely need to improve. He’s been disappointing so far, I think we would be much better off having a striker play instead of him.

Trouble is we don’t have any. Definitely need to sign one.

1 hour ago, KonaKai Blue said:

What Eden did in that first game vs Wigan is better than any PL performance I've seen from Havertz and I'm not even joking. 

Eden was a generational talent. The eyes don't lie. Everyone could see it. Sensational player and a joy to watch from the very first minute in a Chelsea shirt to his last.

But he was at the start playing where he has always played. Havertz was shifted around filling holes all over the pitch in a much less organized team, Hazard was managed much better in comparison and he did have the time to grow, Kai didn't have a mature star next to him till Sterling now. Hazard did come right after we already won the CL, we were at the time much better and he had no problems fitting in. Also just to add, Havertz after winning the CL with us needed to adapt once again because we bought Lukaku, imagine how bad Hazard would feel after a good season if we had bought another left side winger/inside forward?

But let me be clear, I'm not arguing that Havertz is a better player, he should be doing better right now but I think that there is also a very visible reason why he isn't.

I'm only arguing that he didn't really have a chance to play where he plays best part from Lampard putting him in the AM role where he DID manage to win a penalty, assist and score in 3 matches in a row in his first season.

Havertz isn't an inside forward, yet he keeps playing it most of the time, in comparison to most of the inside forwards/wingers that you can think of, Hazard has a lot of similarities to all of them, Havertz almost none.

He won the most headers in the last match and that's that, but how much of that is due to the instructions that are given, that he should wait for the cross or long ball because everyone else is simply short? Again it's not an excuse, Havertz should be doing better but given our attackers not scoring, how much of that is just Havertz and how much is just the whole tactics?

Edited August 7, 20223 yr by Gol15

3 hours ago, abramovich said:

Broja deseves to start over Kai against Spurs. I still have hope Havertz will realize his immense potential and become a star but he hasn't earned the starting spot. Broja looked better in the last 15 minutes than Kai in the first 75.

Sadly Broja is not fit enough for that. Barley had any pre season and he is not sharp.

On Kai I will call this, he won't be at the level we need under TT, the system does not suit him. He is shoehorned in to positions and becomes a none event. 

I am not a fan of his but is clear to me he has excellent technique, @Gol15 Kaka comparison is on the money for me but we don't play with a Kaka position. Like Timo it is best for us, Kai and TT if Kai is sold asap and we bring in a dog of war for TT to replace him.

20 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Sadly Broja is not fit enough for that. Barley had any pre season and he is not sharp.

On Kai I will call this, he won't be at the level we need under TT, the system does not suit him. He is shoehorned in to positions and becomes a none event. 

I am not a fan of his but is clear to me he has excellent technique, @Gol15 Kaka comparison is on the money for me but we don't play with a Kaka position. Like Timo it is best for us, Kai and TT if Kai is sold asap and we bring in a dog of war for TT to replace him.

I don’t see who is out there that can do it all, right now. The attacking flow is not there yet but it was clear last year the team was much more dangerous with Kai up front as opposed to anyone else. At least he can hold up the ball and be a footballer with some touch.

I agree he hasn’t done as well as he should, has not improved much at all in his time here. But I just don’t know who we could buy as a replacement, especially as we get later into the window.

1 minute ago, mwblue10 said:

I don’t see who is out there that can do it all, right now. The attacking flow is not there yet but it was clear last year the team was much more dangerous with Kai up front as opposed to anyone else. At least he can hold up the ball and be a footballer with some touch.

I agree he hasn’t done as well as he should, has not improved much at all in his time here. But I just don’t know who we could buy as a replacement, especially as we get later into the window.

Ironically TT had the perfect forward for his style at the club when he joined. Sadly his legs were going at that point. A younger version has all the tools this TT side needs to bring others in to the game, be a target man, have excellent technical skills and be a dog of war: