Think he gets a pass from me for this performance as the team were very poor, but he played like Lukaku of old.

Tammy looking good at Roma though

23 hours ago, Argo said:

Record signing or not he shouldn't be immune to rotation or not playing if he's off form/the game doesn't suit him.

We had a perfect set up for big games last season and Rom's presence has compromised it somewhat. What makes City so hard to play against is they have everyone heavily involved in the build up and the off the ball work and what made us so strong against them last season is we matched that. 

However that said I wouldn't be surprised if he flat track bullys us into a title race but I don't think there's a chance of us retaining the UCL or even giving it a big shot if he plays every minute in the run. Everything i feared would happen by resigning Rom was on display yesterday and not only that Havertz is looking half the player he was at the back end of last season playing false 9 (which suited him and this squad down to the ground especially vs opponents like City).

Spot on. The teams that have frequently beaten Guardiola in recent times were teams that matched his team cohesion and intensity on the pitch: 11 vs. 11, not 10 vs. 11. Inserting Lukaku hurts the Chelsea pressing machinery. That being said it wasn´t the only reason for the defeat. Alonso was frequently dispossessed by City, probably one of their main points of attack, therefore Chillwell was a big miss. Furthermore the introduction of the 3-5-2 left too much of a gap between the front two and the more defensive midfield. You can defend Werner/Lukaku with jsut Dias/Laporte 1 on 1 and with some tactical fouls, so the RB/LB could push forward. If you got Werner/Pulisic, Havertz and Mount playing up front, at least somebody else from City has to keep an eye on them. The question is whether Tuchel has the "balls" to sit the most expensive signing of the club for some major European/League games, especially when it means playing Werner, who has such a bad reputation. 

Lukaku is the reason why we can beat smaller teams this season, but he's also the reason why we can't beat the bigger teams. The simple fact is that in these big games, he's not good enough, he never has been and never will be.

His presence alone has messed up our game against these top sides, you can see it. The workrate on and off the ball isn't the same, the movement isn't the same and the touch play isn't the same. There is a hesitancy in the passes from midfield because they know before they play the pass that Lukaku's touch can't be trusted and the move is likely to breakdown. I have seen this at every level of the game Lukaku has played at. Even the best passers in the game like De Bruyne and Eriksen have had that hesitancy in their game when playing with Lukaku, and it's all because his touch isn't good enough and he doesn't get the ball out of his feet quick enough. At the very top level, that extra second he needs to sort his feet out is enough to kill an attack. The best defenders see that in Lukaku's game and exploit it every single time. He can get away with it against defenders that are a step down in quality, but he can't get away with it against the top teams.

I see people say he makes good runs, but it's not good enough, not by modern day standards. For a striker of 15-20 years ago, it was good enough, but the modern day striker needs to be able to twist and turn, roam around the attacking areas, pull out wide and leave space for the other attackers to run into. Werner, Pulisic, Mount and Havertz did this a lot under Tuchel in big games last season, and if it wasn't for poor finishing, it would have been the most lethal attack in Europe. Lukaku doesn't have it in him to do it and when he tries......well, we saw what happens when he attempted that cross towards the end of the game tonight. They aren't better finishers, but they open up the best defences better than Lukaku ever could because their movement is so much harder to read.

 

We all knew these problems with Lukaku existed before he joined us. We can't pretend the past 10 years didn't happen just because he is now in a Chelsea shirt.

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

Lukaku is the reason why we can beat smaller teams this season, but he's also the reason why we can't beat the bigger teams. The simple fact is that in these big games, he's not good enough, he never has been and never will be.

His presence alone has messed up our game against these top sides, you can see it. The workrate on and off the ball isn't the same, the movement isn't the same and the touch play isn't the same. There is a hesitancy in the passes from midfield because they know before they play the pass that Lukaku's touch can't be trusted and the move is likely to breakdown. I have seen this at every level of the game Lukaku has played at. Even the best passers in the game like De Bruyne and Eriksen have had that hesitancy in their game when playing with Lukaku, and it's all because his touch isn't good enough and he doesn't get the ball out of his feet quick enough. At the very top level, that extra second he needs to sort his feet out is enough to kill an attack. The best defenders see that in Lukaku's game and exploit it every single time. He can get away with it against defenders that are a step down in quality, but he can't get away with it against the top teams.

I see people say he makes good runs, but it's not good enough, not by modern day standards. For a striker of 15-20 years ago, it was good enough, but the modern day striker needs to be able to twist and turn, roam around the attacking areas, pull out wide and leave space for the other attackers to run into. Werner, Pulisic, Mount and Havertz did this a lot under Tuchel in big games last season, and if it wasn't for poor finishing, it would have been the most lethal attack in Europe. Lukaku doesn't have it in him to do it and when he tries......well, we saw what happens when he attempted that cross towards the end of the game tonight. They aren't better finishers, but they open up the best defences better than Lukaku ever could because their movement is so much harder to read.

 

We all knew these problems with Lukaku existed before he joined us. We can't pretend the past 10 years didn't happen just because he is now in a Chelsea shirt.

Pretty fair summary Scott. I mentioned concerns about his performances against better sides after Liverpool and got a hard time about it. That’s a few more with City & Juve tonight where he’s been ineffectual. It’s still relatively early days in his chelsea career again but there’s no signs of that trend that’s followed him his entire career, changing.

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

Lukaku is the reason why we can beat smaller teams this season, but he's also the reason why we can't beat the bigger teams. The simple fact is that in these big games, he's not good enough, he never has been and never will be.

His presence alone has messed up our game against these top sides, you can see it. The workrate on and off the ball isn't the same, the movement isn't the same and the touch play isn't the same. There is a hesitancy in the passes from midfield because they know before they play the pass that Lukaku's touch can't be trusted and the move is likely to breakdown. I have seen this at every level of the game Lukaku has played at. Even the best passers in the game like De Bruyne and Eriksen have had that hesitancy in their game when playing with Lukaku, and it's all because his touch isn't good enough and he doesn't get the ball out of his feet quick enough. At the very top level, that extra second he needs to sort his feet out is enough to kill an attack. The best defenders see that in Lukaku's game and exploit it every single time. He can get away with it against defenders that are a step down in quality, but he can't get away with it against the top teams.

I see people say he makes good runs, but it's not good enough, not by modern day standards. For a striker of 15-20 years ago, it was good enough, but the modern day striker needs to be able to twist and turn, roam around the attacking areas, pull out wide and leave space for the other attackers to run into. Werner, Pulisic, Mount and Havertz did this a lot under Tuchel in big games last season, and if it wasn't for poor finishing, it would have been the most lethal attack in Europe. Lukaku doesn't have it in him to do it and when he tries......well, we saw what happens when he attempted that cross towards the end of the game tonight. They aren't better finishers, but they open up the best defences better than Lukaku ever could because their movement is so much harder to read.

 

We all knew these problems with Lukaku existed before he joined us. We can't pretend the past 10 years didn't happen just because he is now in a Chelsea shirt.

I'm genuinely sick of the sight of him in the big games already. 

Until he proves otherwise he should be a super sub in these games record signing or not. It was the main worry i had about signing him that he was going to be untouchable no matter what and that's how it's proven to be, he seems immune to rotation in a way not even Azpi, Silva and Mendy are, it's utterly ridiculous and Tuchel will destroy his great work if this carries on.

He's meant to be the lethal finisher ( not the all round striker), so I'm disappointed he couldn't score out the 2 chances he had ( at least force the GK to make a good save)

Where is that other player that is scoring goals part from Lukaku? Nobody else scored more than once and it's end of September. Without Lukaku we are a worse team.

10 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Where is that other player that is scoring goals part from Lukaku? Nobody else scored more than once and it's end of September. Without Lukaku we are a worse team.

Worrying stat that, I said at the start of the season we needed that Hazard like player to go along with Lukaku to carry the burden we are yet to see anyone step up. Sadly Timo got one chance and it's not exactly the best game to judge him on.

8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Where is that other player that is scoring goals part from Lukaku? Nobody else scored more than once and it's end of September. Without Lukaku we are a worse team.

But it wasn't an issue against the top teams last season, and that is the games we are now struggling in. Against weaker opposition, that is where we struggled last season, but Lukaku is tearing those teams apart with his power and finishing, those are the games where Lukaku can be effective for us. In these top games, he is holding us back.

Edited September 30, 20214 yr by Scott Harris

I don't think this one is on him. 

We did create nothing useful (for him) for most of the game. He is not that kind of striker that needs one good chance to score - not his fault. 

Had we played the second half like the last 10 minutes, it could have been a different story. 

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

But it wasn't an issue against the top teams last season, and that is the games we are now struggling in. Against weaker opposition, that is where we struggled last season, but Lukaku is tearing those teams apart with his power and finishing, those are the games where Lukaku can be effective for us. In these top games, he is holding us back.

Giroud played a role for us as some kind of a target man too, you can argue more defensive and more open for a link up but I think that it shouldn't be harder to find Lukaku in the box, he does play with his back towards the goal but nobody is really taking that space.

On paper Zenit is a weaker opponent than Juventus but he brought us 3 points there, there had been some huge upsets in the CL already. We played 3 games against top teams if we disregard Arsenal in which Lukaku dominated, red card vs Liverpool and loses vs Man City and Juventus if we still think that Juventus is a top team even while they are struggling in Serie A and without Dybala and Morata. Maybe you're right but I think we need to see a few more matches against top teams.

3 hours ago, Uxanga said:

I don't think this one is on him. 

We did create nothing useful (for him) for most of the game. He is not that kind of striker that needs one good chance to score - not his fault. 

Had we played the second half like the last 10 minutes, it could have been a different story. 

The issue is, our biggest 'creator' last season is how well we pressed, so if he wants the 'right service' then he has to be a part of that with his off the ball work.

3 minutes ago, Argo said:

The issue is, our biggest 'creator' last season is how well we pressed, so if he wants the 'right service' then he has to be a part of that with his off the ball work.

You can’t play with 5 def, 2 DMs, Lukaku & Havertz, and expect him to get any decent service though. Who was meant to create yesterday, Ziyech?

We rank high for possession, but for chance creation we are about mid. 

18 minutes ago, ducavis said:

You can’t play with 5 def, 2 DMs, Lukaku & Havertz, and expect him to get any decent service though. Who was meant to create yesterday, Ziyech?

We rank high for possession, but for chance creation we are about mid. 

We played the Havertz/Ziyech/Werner trio against Leti and Villareal (before Hakim went off injured) and create chances at will, all be it wasted a lot.

Problem is, if Rom knows his place is secure what motivation has he got to improve and fit us more in these type of games? Believe it or not there will be no one happier than me if he does it.

3 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

But it wasn't an issue against the top teams last season, and that is the games we are now struggling in. Against weaker opposition, that is where we struggled last season, but Lukaku is tearing those teams apart with his power and finishing, those are the games where Lukaku can be effective for us. In these top games, he is holding us back.

Last season we played on the counter against the top sides, and it generally worked, because we were great in transition. When we were faced with teams that sit deep like last night, we still struggled. Fa cup final, Arsenal at home, Wolves. 

Big games this season, we beat Arsenal and Spurs comfortably, and played really well at anfield, couldve scored more despite going down to 10 men. 

Last 2 games havent been great, and Lukaku individually hasnt been great in either match. 

Would we have won the last 2 games with the sane setup as last season though? Its hard to argue we would imo.

As stated we would have struggled to break down Juve regardless, it wouldve been similar to the Atletico game away, and it wouldve took a momemt of magic.

City had something to prove, and we didnt play well enough all over the park, if we passed the ball as poorly as we did, it wouldn't matter who played in any formation. 

Very early days to say Lukaku is hurting us in the big games, especially as we won 2, drew our toughest away day, and narrowly lost 2. 

I think it would be fairer to assess this after xmas, we have a run of games now, that you expect Lukaku to make the difference in like he did against villa, Zenit, and Arsenal. When is the last time we could say Ziyech, Havertz, Mount, were the difference makers? 

Lukaku is worth every penny. He’s going to make a huge impact over the season, he’s not got a great record in big games but we’ve got a very decent record so far this season, and now we’ve got ‘easier’ games coming up, this is where Lukaku will prove his worth.

I tell you what, I’ll be disappointed if he doesn’t score 5 in the next 5 PL games. Southampton, Brentford, Norwich, Newcastle and Burnley.

We are still playing like we don't have Lukaku and not playing to his strengths imo. 

Don Antonio agrees as well:

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2021/9/30/22701822/conte-chelsea-have-yet-to-figure-out-how-to-use-lukaku

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

We are still playing like we don't have Lukaku and not playing to his strengths imo. 

Don Antonio agrees as well:

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2021/9/30/22701822/conte-chelsea-have-yet-to-figure-out-how-to-use-lukaku

No doubt we will find out eventually that Tuchel didn't want Lukaku and he was signed by the board for the next manager. Step forward Antonio v2 😉

1 minute ago, forbzy said:

No doubt we will find out eventually that Tuchel didn't want Lukaku and he was signed by the board for the next manager. Step forward Antonio v2 😉

Lol yeah, "I did not want Lukaku, I wanted Haaland!"

4 hours ago, axman2526 said:

We are still playing like we don't have Lukaku and not playing to his strengths imo. 

Don Antonio agrees as well:

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2021/9/30/22701822/conte-chelsea-have-yet-to-figure-out-how-to-use-lukaku

He couldn't pass the group stage of the CL with Lukaku... Just saying because he said that if we figure out how to use Lukaku then we're the team to beat, sounds a bit sketchy.

It’s a bit disingenuous to lay the teams poor showing in the last 2 outings on this fella. Admittedly he looked miles off the pace of a ‘world class’ striker but he had FA to work with. Let’s give him until Xmas to really decide if he’s just a flat track bully please. 

17 hours ago, General said:

It’s a bit disingenuous to lay the teams poor showing in the last 2 outings on this fella. Admittedly he looked miles off the pace of a ‘world class’ striker but he had FA to work with. Let’s give him until Xmas to really decide if he’s just a flat track bully please. 

But it's not just a knee-jerk reaction to two games is it? His sketchy record in crunch ties dates back the best part of a decade.

We've seen before how it goes when we start banging on about service and everything else, Diego Costa was often feeding on scraps in these type of games but still often found a way to make a difference, Drogba had literally nothing to go on vs Barca and Bayern in the 2012 run and still found a way to make a difference when it really mattered.

However, that's not to say Rom doesn't have his strengths and said strengths are what we signed him for. I think one thing we can all agree on is that Lukaku must deliver in the run of fixtures we have between now and the United game.

We signed him to stop us dropping points in these type of games, so if us compromising our style of play can even begin to be justified then he has to be winning us these games, no excuses.

Edited October 1, 20214 yr by Argo

38 minutes ago, Argo said:

But it's not just a knee-jerk reaction to two games is it? His sketchy record in crunch ties dates back the best part of a decade.

We've seen before how it goes when we start banging on about service and everything else, Diego Costa was often feeding on scraps in these type of games but still often found a way to make a difference, Drogba had literally nothing to go on vs Barca and Bayern in the 2012 run and still found a way to make a difference when it really mattered.

However, that's not to say Rom doesn't have his strengths and said strengths are what we signed him for. I think one thing we can all agree on is that Lukaku must deliver in the run of fixtures we have between now and the United game.

We signed him to stop us dropping points in these type of games, so if us compromising our style of play can even begin to be justified then he has to be winning us these games, no excuses.

Let's be fair though, he is never, ever going to justify the size of his fee. Not his fault he cost so much but, in the end, had we paid that money for a prime Drogba everyone would be saying money well spent. Rom is always going to be compared to Didier and he is nowhere near his level and never will be.

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Let's be fair though, he is never, ever going to justify the size of his fee. Not his fault he cost so much but, in the end, had we paid that money for a prime Drogba everyone would be saying money well spent. Rom is always going to be compared to Didier and he is nowhere near his level and never will be.

He doesn't have to justify his fee per se but if we buy someone for a specific thing as we have done with Rom then the pressure is on to deliver.

Like with last year when we signed Thiago Silva, we didn't sign him as a project we signed him as an immediate fix to an area of weakness, had we carried on conceded for fun with him on the pitch then he would have been scrutinised.

10 minutes ago, Argo said:

He doesn't have to justify his fee per se but if we buy someone for a specific thing as we have done with Rom then the pressure is on to deliver.

Like with last year when we signed Thiago Silva, we didn't sign him as a project we signed him as an immediate fix to an area of weakness, had we carried on conceded for fun with him on the pitch then he would have been scrutinised.

Fair point, we do need to deliver better against the other 16 PL sides.