6 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

To my knowledge there has been very little explanation for Luiz being dropped from the bench, just wondering if it could be drugs related. I suppose the test will be if we  look to sell him in January.

 

 

What? 

4 hours ago, barak81 said:

Iv'e always been a bit supporter of Luiz, excused his frailty's due to his character and versatility. But the manager must come first, especially one as good as Conte.

 

Look at the ferguson hit list over the years.

Ince, Sparky, kean Beckham, Stam - with the exception of maybe Hughes and Kean (on the way down a bit), All considered top level and world class players at the point of exit, all shown the door because the manager decided they had crossed the line. No player is bigger then the club and the manager should always be backed, if after you have backed the manager both financially and in the dressing room you still haven Arsen Wenger... well time to get rid 

Unless you are Wayne Rooney. He seem's to be the only player to have got on the wrong side of Ferguson and remained at the club.

59 minutes ago, Blueblur said:

What? 

Cue a Daily Star article: "Chelsea fans question if Luiz snub is drugs related"

Edited November 6, 20178 yr by Zeta

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

Unless you are Wayne Rooney. He seem's to be the only player to have got on the wrong side of Ferguson and remained at the club.

There was rumours a few years back Rooney didn't actually put in a transfer request in 2013 and Fergie made it up as a parting act of revenge for a few years prior.

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

Unless you are Wayne Rooney. He seem's to be the only player to have got on the wrong side of Ferguson and remained at the club.

Old Ferguson, who didn't' want to do any more re-building, who was squeezing every last drop out of hat aging united team before he dumped them. 

 

in 1990, if you had told anyone Liverpool will not win a title again (or at least for 27 years) you might have been committed to an asylum. It was unthinkable. However Fergi is quoted as saying that they had recognized it, one of his assistance had pointed out to him that the Liverpool side were getting old together and little effort was being made on re-refreshing thing, they would slide and there would be an opportunity to move in to their place. You could argue that he learnt a pretty valuable lesson from that as he successfully re-built the united team again and again not allowing them to become to stale, you could also argue that no manager today would be given the time he was to achieve it... the spell between 2003 - 2006 where they finished 3rd 3rd and 2nd and dumped out of the Champions League group stages in 2006 in what was a pretty straight forward group would probably see most top managers sacked now days, but it proved divedens for united who then won 3 on the bounce and CL to boot. 

 

Coming back to the point. I have always believed that he didn't have another re-building job in him, come 2010 -13. That united team was pretty much on it's last legs, he wanted to go out on a high and he had to keep Rooney to help him get there. I think in an earlier ear you would have seen Wayne shipped out like the others 

Last season we generally saw the best of Luiz. Dependable, aggressive, composed. This season, the 'undesirable' elements have crept back in. Rash challenges, poor decision making, getting caught out of position too often. To top it all off, being viewed laughing on the pitch whilst being hammered by Roma (whatever the reason) should not happen. It's unprofessional.

Clearly, this decision is about as 'tactial' as when Diego was left out last January when wanting a move to China. Conte would never let it be known publicly, but the two have obviously had a major coming together.

I really hope this is the beginning of a change of culture at the club, which is sorely needed. For too long, the players seem to have ruled the roost. Conte won't stand for that, and unless the board choose to back a manager for once, things will never change.

52 minutes ago, barak81 said:

Old Ferguson, who didn't' want to do any more re-building, who was squeezing every last drop out of hat aging united team before he dumped them. 

 

in 1990, if you had told anyone Liverpool will not win a title again (or at least for 27 years) you might have been committed to an asylum. It was unthinkable. However Fergi is quoted as saying that they had recognized it, one of his assistance had pointed out to him that the Liverpool side were getting old together and little effort was being made on re-refreshing thing, they would slide and there would be an opportunity to move in to their place. You could argue that he learnt a pretty valuable lesson from that as he successfully re-built the united team again and again not allowing them to become to stale, you could also argue that no manager today would be given the time he was to achieve it... the spell between 2003 - 2006 where they finished 3rd 3rd and 2nd and dumped out of the Champions League group stages in 2006 in what was a pretty straight forward group would probably see most top managers sacked now days, but it proved divedens for united who then won 3 on the bounce and CL to boot. 

 

Coming back to the point. I have always believed that he didn't have another re-building job in him, come 2010 -13. That united team was pretty much on it's last legs, he wanted to go out on a high and he had to keep Rooney to help him get there. I think in an earlier ear you would have seen Wayne shipped out like the others 

There wasn't a point to him rebuilding it, he's looking to retire and he took them all the way to the top on his final year. 

Imo he intended for the next manager to start the rebuilding process. That Utd team were riddled with deadwood but they just won a title so they still had resale value. Moyes on the other hand blundered the job and now they've been on a continuous rebuilding job and long may it continue.

Isn't that what I just said above ?

Very strange that he is dropped like this.  I hadn't heard any murmurs of discord coming from the camp (just shows how much ITK's actually know if they never picked up on this, a major story).

I like Luiz, but he has gone a little hair brained, and I think that's why Conte stated that the decision was a purely tactical one.  I also liked how Conte was preemptive about the need for midfielders in claiming that Ampadu, who is only 17, is someone he trusts in the middle.  That's a shot at Luiz, in my mind.

Sometimes Luiz needs a little controversy to get him focused.  I remember he was lambasted for Brazil in the World Cup.  Then last season for us he looked great nad seemed a more mature character in his interviews.

And as for that drugs comment???  That's pretty libelous 

 

1 hour ago, barak81 said:

Isn't that what I just said above ?

Yeah, just pointing out that it's not that he didn't have it in him to rebuild just that, there wasn't a need for him to rebuild is what I'm saying. He could still rebuild but chose not to so that the next manager could shape it into a new Utd side. His signings at that point was all about winning the league that year.

He barely spent any money that season in comparison to the amounts they've spent since ten

i saw a picture of him laughing and smiling during the roma game after a goal, in my opinion that is the last thing you ever want to see from a player, apparently conte was furious with the performance and maybe luiz's all round attitude has not been to clever lately, he maybe has to learn to take things a bit more seriously

Rumors about him going to United. I hope not. No more selling our players/managers to them.

28 minutes ago, didierforever said:

Rumors about him going to United. I hope not. No more selling our players/managers to them.

Why not?  It's worked well in the past selling them our left overs, nice little earner.

It would be strange as currently they are a rival in the league, yet think it might happen.

Christensen's rise has meant we have one too many in central defence added to potential rumours of a rift between Conte and Luiz.

It's hilarious the more I think about it. 90m~100m is the price if they really want him.

1 hour ago, Van Butsen said:

Why not?  It's worked well in the past selling them our left overs, nice little earner.

As sh*t as Matic is he's still strengthened Utd. Imagine if we hadn't sold him to them and they had to play the last month with Fellaini and Herrera in a pivot. Selling to a rival, whoever it is, strengthens them. One thing we don;t want to do. 

37 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

As sh*t as Matic is he's still strengthened Utd. Imagine if we hadn't sold him to them and they had to play the last month with Fellaini and Herrera in a pivot. Selling to a rival, whoever it is, strengthens them. One thing we don;t want to do. 

I'm more relaxed about it than you and most.  I don't think anyone we have sold them has made them stronger than us and subsequently our acquisition of players with presumably some of that money has been far superior (if we are talking what the team needs and not what the marketing department wants).

Edit:  For the record I think David Luiz would absolutely make them stronger and I'm not suggesting we sell him to them at all.  But the players we have sold have been in decline.

Edited November 17, 20178 yr by Van Butsen

29 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

As sh*t as Matic is he's still strengthened Utd. Imagine if we hadn't sold him to them and they had to play the last month with Fellaini and Herrera in a pivot. Selling to a rival, whoever it is, strengthens them. One thing we don;t want to do. 

If the player wants to go you let him go, no matter if it makes your rivals stronger, but only if it makes us stronger.

4 minutes ago, coco said:

If the player wants to go you let him go, no matter if it makes your rivals stronger, but only if it makes us stronger.

disagree. Player power shouldn't win. If a player wants to leave, they either leave on your terms or rot on the bench. Spurs wouldn't sell anyone to us (i.e Modric/Dembele in the past) why should we sell to anyone.

If Jose had his way, he'd buy every player from Chelsea. Meanwhile, Agent Pogba is trying to line up all his buddies from Instgram to join United. Luiz hasn't said anything about the incident, my feeling is he will be back on the bench this weekend and gradually work his way back into the team.

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

disagree. Player power shouldn't win. If a player wants to leave, they either leave on your terms or rot on the bench. Spurs wouldn't sell anyone to us (i.e Modric/Dembele in the past) why should we sell to anyone.

Player power hasn't won in this example though.  Club and player equally happy to part ways.  You'll probably point out Antonio wasn't happy with it, but the club as a whole were keen to not see us fall to stagnant and have an eye on the future.  A good balancing and compromise in my eyes.  Rotting on the bench doesn't help the club at all, let alone the player himself and I don't think we (or any club) should deliberately kill players seasons.  It's a bit sad from a wider footballing family point of view.  It doesn't look good for other players who may come in and not enjoy playing for us for any reason as well.

The Dembele and Modric situations are entirely different as they were only going to improve (personally and for us as a team).  A better example would be us selling Hazard to any of our rival English teams, which we won't.

7 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

Player power hasn't won in this example though.  Club and player equally happy to part ways.  You'll probably point out Antonio wasn't happy with it, but the club as a whole were keen to not see us fall to stagnant and have an eye on the future.  A good balancing and compromise in my eyes.  Rotting on the bench doesn't help the club at all, let alone the player himself and I don't think we (or any club) should deliberately kill players seasons.  It's a bit sad from a wider footballing family point of view.  It doesn't look good for other players who may come in and not enjoy playing for us for any reason as well.

The Dembele and Modric situations are entirely different as they were only going to improve (personally and for us as a team).  A better example would be us selling Hazard to any of our rival English teams, which we won't.

Are we talking about the Matic sale here or the potential Luiz sale? if it is the Matic sale then player power certainly won. He refused to come on our pre-season tour because he wanted to link up with Mou. We should have told him to get on with his job that he is contractually obliged to do or feck off to a team abroad. If not players will see us as a stepping stone.

When we were interested in Dembele he wasn't a 'world class' player by any means. i remember a lot of Chelsea wondering why we were even going for him at all, but Chelsea obviously saw something in him. There were no signs at the time he would immediately improve us. On the other hand it was quite obvious to the majority of people that Matic was exactly what Utd needed to free up Pogba, thus strengthening them. We saw how good Utd were playing when they had Pogba in that free role. 

2 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Are we talking about the Matic sale here or the potential Luiz sale? if it is the Matic sale then player power certainly won. He refused to come on our pre-season tour because he wanted to link up with Mou. We should have told him to get on with his job that he is contractually obliged to do or feck off to a team abroad. If not players will see us as a stepping stone.

When we were interested in Dembele he wasn't a 'world class' player by any means. i remember a lot of Chelsea wondering why we were even going for him at all, but Chelsea obviously saw something in him. There were no signs at the time he would immediately improve us. On the other hand it was quite obvious to the majority of people that Matic was exactly what Utd needed to free up Pogba, thus strengthening them. We saw how good Utd were playing when they had Pogba in that free role. 

The Matic one.  And we aren't a stepping stone, certainly not in England, the trophies will attest to that and if players want marketing fame/Real Madrid over us then that is their personal choice and I wouldn't not have that player for 3,4, 5 years because of that. We saw Matic as surplus once, so it goes both ways.  I'll wait to see if Pogba has any more influence on the game in the next couple of years because of Matic, I don't really see it happening but we shall see.
 

On 06/11/2017 at 15:32, Elliott said:

Last season we generally saw the best of Luiz. Dependable, aggressive, composed. This season, the 'undesirable' elements have crept back in. Rash challenges, poor decision making, getting caught out of position too often. To top it all off, being viewed laughing on the pitch whilst being hammered by Roma (whatever the reason) should not happen. It's unprofessional.

Clearly, this decision is about as 'tactial' as when Diego was left out last January when wanting a move to China. Conte would never let it be known publicly, but the two have obviously had a major coming together.

I really hope this is the beginning of a change of culture at the club, which is sorely needed. For too long, the players seem to have ruled the roost. Conte won't stand for that, and unless the board choose to back a manager for once, things will never change.

I do agree with your post but I think the Luiz back to his usual self-claims is a bit exaggerated. 

The whole defence has been all over the place and that's due to injuries. Not making big excuses but with our system, it's fragile once we have a player missing in it, you take Kante out and put Fabregas it's going to be a different team, there is no room for passengers. Unless you have Kante next to you of course. Against Roma he looked awful because the team was all over the place, you leave a 3 man defence for dead they're going to look pretty bad. 

I don't think Azpilicueta has been convincing either, I've never seen him string bad games in a row until this season. But it isn't alarming because the problems weren't with the defence, in this system, you have to protect the back 3 or they're going to get overrun. We've failed at doing that in the games we've lost this season besides the City game where we got completely outplayed. 

However it could also tie with David Luiz being unprofessional you are right, is it recent or not? I'm not sure. But regardless he either needs to start playing for the club again or he needs to go, I back Conte over Luiz any day of the week and if Conte gets the sack while Luiz is still on the sideline I don't want Luiz back here period. 

Who has trouble managing someone like Luis? Conte is just so bad at man management, even Avram Grant wasn't this bad. To be a successful long term manager, you have to be good at man management. I'm grateful for everything he has done but losing matic, luis and Costa is too much.

Can't wait until this buffoon gets sacked.