44 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

I suppose one of the reasons Frank is after Rice is to bring some leadership into that midfield, currently we have Mount, Kante & Kova who all seem quiet and head down kind of guys. More than anything he is looking for a voice in there and you can't really question his quality either, he is a natural CDM something we lack with the exception of Jorginho.

I don't think Rice is the answer to all our troubles as people have rightly pointed out that we lack creativity from midfield and Rice does not resolve that but I think Frank believes the answer to that is in Kai. I think he wants to play 4-2-3-1 but he doesnt believe he has the right balance in the 2 holding midfielders currently, we tried 4-2-3-1 at the start of the league and the balance did not seem right and therefore is hesitant in trying it again.

Looking at the body language of Kai isn’t much better, guy looks and is most certainly a shy guy, new country or not, people have praised his mental strength (which we’ll soon find out) but from a behavioural perspective he looks like a deer in headlights. Werner not much better although seems more brooding, coming from Germany or any country to here and this English dressing room always going to be hard to stamp authority... Ballack was a very very special character in the game full stop.

Got my PHD in footballer psychology from the university of ronaldo7streams.net btw, if anyone interested. 😉

11 hours ago, CFCCAN said:

We need goals from midfield and I don't see Rice offering much in that department, we need a Grealish like player who can create as well as score.  I'm not sure who that player is but we best hurry up and find him. 

I agree, I have said this myself last summer. But you know that sometimes both things can be true at the same time, if our wingers keep getting injured and fail to produce we will need a new player on that position and Grealish seems to occupy the left wing a lot and he has made a lot of assists.

But Lampard might also need someone like Rice in order for his 4-3-3 to work again, without this type of DM for his tactics we might not see the 4-3-3 work against a good team at all, clearly Kante/Kovacic/Jorginho are not the players for Lampard's tactic.

Grealish would slow the play down too much, not fast moving enough, he’s a special player who has that bit of magic in him but not for us. And let’s not forget, we have our best pound for pound talent in Pulisic in that position anyway.              

I just discovered seen this elsewhere, it covers some of the downfalls of Chelsea's play:

https://theathletic.com/2303208/2021/01/06/chelsea-lampard-tactics-werner?source=user-shared-article

This is behind a paywall, but the 'Zonal Marking' podcast on Spotify is free and covers the exact same content.

Cliff notes: 

- Chelsea are going better than their xG overall - it's 1.4 vs. their actual which is 1.7. Quite a big jump; Abraham has finished very well this season, Werner (obviously) hasn't and undershot his xG. xGA Chelsea are excellent - fourth in the table behind Man City/Liverpool and Brighton (!). However they have conceded more than would be expected, but this should stabilise by the end of the season. 

- Lampard wants the team to press, but the specifics aren't there. There's too much inconsistency between them which suggests Lampard doesn't really know how to organise or how to specify what an actual press is. For example, sometimes they're too high, sometimes it seems that the midfield is asked to do the same thing - it's all very uncoordinated. It appears to be more of a managerial issue than a player issue.

- However, Sarri was likely right about Kanté position that he needs a full on destroyer/DM to help him out as a more box-to-box interceptor. He's currently the weak link in our midfield due to the lack of versatility. But at the same time, combine that with the above, it's no surprise when we do crap against bigger teams because all they have to do is throw bodies through the centre and the midfield is very easily bypassed - less of an issue for small teams because of a good backline and less ability to efficiently go between the lines. It crucially suggests that signing somebody like Rice is a waste of time if he's not been instructed to maintain the right positioning when going forward / 'destroying'. Because even if he's better than Kanté there, we would still be exposed during the bigger games. 

- Mendy's stats look bang average - the reason he got many clean sheets was because he barely faced any shots on target but it's began to normalise. He's a 'normal' keeper, and Chelsea would do well to see somebody who's just a bit more consistent with his positioning, knowing when to sweep and how to make those better shot stops. Outside of this distribution isn't helped for Chelsea's style of play. 

- Werner's finishing is bad but a big reason for his lack of good player is thath he's genuinely out of position. He drifted off from the left side of the field (sort of as a hybrid LW/ST) but still spent 78% of last season in a centre forward position, and the drifting left was mostly to unsettle CBs before coming back inside. In this season, he's spent 63% of his total minutes mainly in the 'LW' position, possibly because he's instructed to do so.  He also doesn't seem to get the same opportunities to bring the ball central like we would have under Nageslmann. Both Poulsen and Forsberg helped with occupying the space between the lines but it's only Werner who's had to try himself to do that. However, with point 1, because we're actually outperforming our xG, Werner's lack of finishing isn't the main problem 

Cliff notes cliff notes:

- Lack of midfield organisation the main problem with Chelsea.

- Defensive very good, but Mendy the weak link. 

- Doing better than our xG so Werner's finishing isn't screwing us over. 

Edited January 6, 20215 yr by MANoWAR

3 minutes ago, MANoWAR said:

- Lampard wants the team to press, but the specifics aren't there. There's too much inconsistency between them which suggests Lampard doesn't really know how to organise or how to specify what an actual press is. For example, sometimes they're too high, sometimes it seems that the midfield is asked to do the same thing - it's all very uncoordinated. It appears to be more of a managerial issue than a player issue.

One thing I noticed about the first few minutes of the City game was us pressing their defence as far forward as the opposition penalty box. No wonder the players are all knackered!

Had some flashbacks of the 6-0 under Sarri watching that... particularly when we went 3-0 down after about half an hour. 

I just think we're too easy to play against right now,  the lack of attacking threat and slow passing gives the opposition confidence to commit more players knowing we won't punish them with a quick counter, theres no fear factor.  It amazes me how a team with such pace up top doesn't have any counter attacking ability at all, I can't remember how many times the counter attack is on and we don't commit any players to support the player in possession and we just end up passing backwards to the centre backs.  Most players are standing still or just jogging when receiving the ball, its possession for the sake of possession theres no strategy to it, its just too slow and everyone knows it.  Why did everyone of our players look marked and every City player had so much space.  We need runners and options for the killer ball, they don't just appear we need to create the space with quick running, losing defenders and just being hard to mark.  Just look at our only real chance in the game our goal against City one quick run by Kai losing his man then support in the box voilà we have a goal.  We need to speed up our game and players need to support each other, no point in say Werner running in behind with nobody willing to give him an option or he just slows down, stopping the break running into the corner, then most liking pass back into the midfield in which the initial run from him broke us out of.

I will be very interested in how the so called PE teacher Ole sets up Man U against City tonight, I bet you they use their pace up front to get in behind City using fast counter attacks.  I bet Fernandes is willing to risk giving the ball away numerous times attempting a defence spitting pass and the forwards willing to make quick runs in behind for him to find.  I bet they will be compact in defence against a team that has been struggling to score against teams that set up that way.  They may well lose but I think they will still be in the game until the end and alway be a threat something we didn't do.

59 minutes ago, DarkMata said:

I just think we're too easy to play against right now,  the lack of attacking threat and slow passing gives the opposition confidence to commit more players knowing we won't punish them with a quick counter, theres no fear factor.  It amazes me how a team with such pace up top doesn't have any counter attacking ability at all, I can't remember how many times the counter attack is on and we don't commit any players to support the player in possession and we just end up passing backwards to the centre backs.  Most players are standing still or just jogging when receiving the ball, its possession for the sake of possession theres no strategy to it, its just too slow and everyone knows it.  Why did everyone of our players look marked and every City player had so much space.  We need runners and options for the killer ball, they don't just appear we need to create the space with quick running, losing defenders and just being hard to mark.  Just look at our only real chance in the game our goal against City one quick run by Kai losing his man then support in the box voilà we have a goal.  We need to speed up our game and players need to support each other, no point in say Werner running in behind with nobody willing to give him an option or he just slows down, stopping the break running into the corner, then most liking pass back into the midfield in which the initial run from him broke us out of.

I will be very interested in how the so called PE teacher Ole sets up Man U against City tonight, I bet you they use their pace up front to get in behind City using fast counter attacks.  I bet Fernandes is willing to risk giving the ball away numerous times attempting a defence spitting pass and the forwards willing to make quick runs in behind for him to find.  I bet they will be compact in defence against a team that has been struggling to score against teams that set up that way.  They may well lose but I think they will still be in the game until the end and alway be a threat something we didn't do.

Passing Accuracy this season from our Midfield:

Kovacic: 88%

Kante: 87%

Mount: 86%

Jorginho: 88%

 

Passing Accuracy from creative players:

KDB: 80%

Fernandes: 75% (This Season)

Fabregas: 84% (His last season with us)

Our midfield play far too safe, they need to attempt more high risk high value balls through to our front line.

 

Edited January 6, 20215 yr by Imran_CFC

1 hour ago, MANoWAR said:

- However, Sarri was likely right about Kanté position that he needs a full on destroyer/DM to help him out as a more box-to-box interceptor. He's currently the weak link in our midfield due to the lack of versatility. But at the same time, combine that with the above, it's no surprise when we do crap against bigger teams because all they have to do is throw bodies through the centre and the midfield is very easily bypassed - less of an issue for small teams because of a good backline and less ability to efficiently go between the lines. It crucially suggests that signing somebody like Rice is a waste of time if he's not been instructed to maintain the right positioning when going forward / 'destroying'. Because even if he's better than Kanté there, we would still be exposed during the bigger games. 

Cliff notes cliff notes:

- Lack of midfield organisation the main problem with Chelsea.

Rice might be the answer for Lampard, as long as Rice becomes a more standard DM that won't leave his position and that has a better awareness of it than Kante.

Even so you make a good point there, Rice just like Kante often roams around so he would need to adapt to be our own version of Fernandinho, otherwise the tactic still won't work;

This is Rice, this season so far:

 

This is Kante:

I think that since Matic we have failed to produce a real DM that is capable of making space and holding the ball.

Bakayoko was a flop and Jorginho is a deep-lying playmaker so his role is different.

 

Oh here we go...

3 hours ago, DarkMata said:

I just think we're too easy to play against right now,  the lack of attacking threat and slow passing gives the opposition confidence to commit more players knowing we won't punish them with a quick counter, theres no fear factor.  It amazes me how a team with such pace up top doesn't have any counter attacking ability at all, I can't remember how many times the counter attack is on and we don't commit any players to support the player in possession and we just end up passing backwards to the centre backs.  Most players are standing still or just jogging when receiving the ball, its possession for the sake of possession theres no strategy to it, its just too slow and everyone knows it.  Why did everyone of our players look marked and every City player had so much space.  We need runners and options for the killer ball, they don't just appear we need to create the space with quick running, losing defenders and just being hard to mark.  Just look at our only real chance in the game our goal against City one quick run by Kai losing his man then support in the box voilà we have a goal.  We need to speed up our game and players need to support each other, no point in say Werner running in behind with nobody willing to give him an option or he just slows down, stopping the break running into the corner, then most liking pass back into the midfield in which the initial run from him broke us out of.

I will be very interested in how the so called PE teacher Ole sets up Man U against City tonight, I bet you they use their pace up front to get in behind City using fast counter attacks.  I bet Fernandes is willing to risk giving the ball away numerous times attempting a defence spitting pass and the forwards willing to make quick runs in behind for him to find.  I bet they will be compact in defence against a team that has been struggling to score against teams that set up that way.  They may well lose but I think they will still be in the game until the end and alway be a threat something we didn't do.

Our counter attack under conte first season was devastating 

City passing and movement is just world class the players always moving looking for space compared to our players walking around you can see a team well drilled in finding space always moving Pep doesn’t allow walking for standing around you must always be moving finding space.

3 hours ago, Brutos said:

City passing and movement is just world class the players always moving looking for space compared to our players walking around you can see a team well drilled in finding space always moving Pep doesn’t allow walking for standing around you must always be moving finding space.

All City and Liverpool players are all moving when one of their players have the ball...whereas a majority of time our player with the ball is waiting for someone in front to move or the ball invariably gets played backwards or sideways. It's suprising how static our team is at times making it easy to defend against.

3 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

All City and Liverpool players are all moving when one of their players have the ball...whereas a majority of time our player with the ball is waiting for someone in front to move or the ball invariably gets played backwards or sideways. It's suprising how static our team is at times making it easy to defend against.

This leads me back to the coaching because if they are coached all week to pass and move and come match date the players don’t either the players can’t adapt, they are not getting it,  they aren’t good enough or the coaching staff aren’t up to it. 
Solution 1: Refresh the entire playing staff 

Solution 2: Refresh the entire coaching staff

 

One will have to give.

 

4 hours ago, Brutos said:

City passing and movement is just world class the players always moving looking for space compared to our players walking around you can see a team well drilled in finding space always moving Pep doesn’t allow walking for standing around you must always be moving finding space.

Oh well we can look like that for about 10-20 minutes.

It all comes down to training, it doesn't matter if Werner is making a run if no player will ever make the pass...

Sarri managed to make us play the modern way for a while, now we don't even have a system anymore

 

 

Think midfield is our biggest problem, something has to change. I really grimaced at a picture I saw earlier today, we had 3/4 players pressing a City player in possession. That’s ridiculous, literally takes the whole midfield out of game.

Hopefully Frank sees it and change our pressing. We can’t keep doing that.

7 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Oh well we can look like that for about 10-20 minutes.

It all comes down to training, it doesn't matter if Werner is making a run if no player will ever make the pass...

Sarri managed to make us play the modern way for a while, now we don't even have a system anymore

 

 

Now show one of the million clips where we pass the ball around between the back 4 for 15 minutes while Sarri managed us, Anyone can pick out clips of youtube to make something look good, thats just pathetic cherry picking.

5 minutes ago, dkw said:

Now show one of the million clips where we pass the ball around between the back 4 for 15 minutes while Sarri managed us, Anyone can pick out clips of youtube to make something look good, thats just pathetic cherry picking.

We pass the ball all game now between our defenders it’s worst now 

2 minutes ago, Brutos said:

We pass the ball all game now between our defenders it’s worst now 

No its not....opinions eh.....

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

No its not....opinions eh.....

Pass between the back four >>>>pass to midfield >>>midfield pass to wingers >>>wingers pass back to defenders >>>>defenders pass between them over and over >>>>rinse and repeat >>>>attempt unsuccessful cross number 15

Edited January 7, 20215 yr by Brutos

Just now, Brutos said:

Pass between the back four >>>>pass to midfield >>>midfield pass to wingers >>>wingers pass back to defenders >>>>defenders pass between them over and over >>>>rinse and repeat 

Yep, thats Sarri ball alright, well done.

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

Yep, thats Sarri ball alright, well done.

That’s Frank ball which is why we are struggling to get shots on target

you can try and spin it as much as you like

Edited January 7, 20215 yr by Brutos

7 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

Think midfield is our biggest problem, something has to change. I really grimaced at a picture I saw earlier today, we had 3/4 players pressing a City player in possession. That’s ridiculous, literally takes the whole midfield out of game.

Hopefully Frank sees it and change our pressing. We can’t keep doing that.

Frank and people dont see it because they're busy thinking that Mount and Kante are our best players this season and you cant really have a problem with the midfield when two of your best players are playing there. 

Jorginho's limitations are well known, but even then he's comfortably our most creative midfielder. Kovacic situation is frustrating. He has everything, but most likely will never live up to his talent. 

26 minutes ago, dkw said:

Yep, thats Sarri ball alright, well done.

I mean, it's just not. That's complete and utter nonsense. Lampard is - if I give him any credit - trying to copy Klopps style of pressing and crossing. 

Sarri style was fast build up play and look for through balls. It was boring because he was developing the style, the players were adapting from counter attacking football and so at a base level it just looked like possession for possessions sake. But it was never about spamming crosses. No one being genuous could say that. 

Lampard may be in a period where the players are adapting to his style. But it's not the same as Sarri ball. 

 

I think the differential has been that we are controlling possession but we look about 6 weeks behind the top teams in terms of understanding systems. Remember it was only 3 months ago that Ole at Utd looked like he didn't have a clue what was going on.

There is a sense of time is needed and all good managers take time to bed in their squads, i mean Klopp took Liverpool to 10th first season. I am glad that we are looking to give Lampard some more time as we throw managers out far too quickly and then have to start again far too often. The problems i see are as follows.

The tweak in tactic has not worked - the 4-3-3 approach with flying wingers and wing backs has caused us to struggle. The thing about Pedro and Willian to give them credit was that they often tracked back and supported their full backs. now Ziyech hasn't done that yet and with James there, he's strong and quick enough to mop up and cover Ziyech but Foden tore Dave apart (who i think should start being looked at as CB option more than RB/RWB). 

No CAM - The lack of a CAM or at least a forward looking CM/Box to Box has hurt us. Mount filled that position a lot last season and did well and RLC was also an option. However, with Havertz out of form and not playing there and Mount used further back we have no link to our Attackers. Kova and Kante as good as they are, struggle to always play that required pass or have the vision but could sit deeper and clean up, protecting James and Chilwell coming forward. 

 

Unhappy players - The squad is too bloated. We have a fair few players on loan/in the squad who aren't pulling their weight/ aren't good enough. It's clear the likes of Drinkwater, Alonso, Van Ginkel (sadly), Musonda, Kepa, and maybe Rudiger (unhappy over playing time), Jorginho (doesn't fit system) need to be  moved on. Frank needs to reassess where he has players that could free up transfer budget/wage bill and then let them go, even if a loss on original transfer fee. 

Use the young guns - let's be honest, we are going to struggle to win the league this season and need to focus on top 4. So as said, let the older players who aren't pulling their weight move on and start utilising the youngsters/put pressure on them. We seemed to flourish last season doing that.

Use CHO and fix Tomori - No idea what has happened to Tomori but i miss him. Seems to love the club and want to be here but doesn't get used. USE HIM! he can't be any worse than what Christensen and Rudiger have done this season. Also CHO is playing well at the moment, play him on the left or right and use him. Ziyech isn't fit yet and Pulisic doesn't seem to be on same wave length as squad atm and Abraham/CHO/Werner/Mount seem to have a decent link up.