10 minutes ago, big blue said:

Werner isnt being used correctly, too wide, too restricted, too much tracking back required.

However he needs to show some fight and determination, he is coming is to his prime, and he should be hungry, I can excuse this sort of performance by Havertz to some extent, he is younger,  and has had covid hit him pretty hard, but Werner needs to start acting like a big player, and show some arrogance and grit.

You pay the big money for the big players, because they turn up against good teams and take responsibility to get the team a result. He has shown it in glimpses, but in this busy period, especially with Ziyech out, and Havertz way off the pace, Werner needs to step up.

I said what it seems like a long time ago, that he looks like half a player when played a winger. Sure he runs a lot but that has taken its toll now, he's not playing with confidence anymore.

We have 3 strikers and nobody knows who is our first choice yet, feels tough not to know your best lineup even after so many games.

I feel like we will only truly see what our attack is capable of once we play Atletico Madrid in the CL.

Werner didn't get to have 5 games without scoring last season now he has his biggest goal drought.

 

Cant judge him until he is tried through the middle. What is frank actually thinking???

I will admit, Werner has absolutely pissed me off the most out of all our signings this season. But I also can't purely blame him because we aren't playing to his strengths. It's very unfortunate for him that he's came here during an injury crises when we have 3 wingers who can't play 2 back to back games without pulling up with an injury. 

So he's being forced out to the wing. Yes, I'm aware at RB he was on the wing, but he was always making runs and running behind the defence. Here he isn't, the build up play doesn't suit him when he's on the wing, he's just completely limited. It doesn't help that the guy can't finish his chances either, otherwise we would be letting him off with performances like this. 

It's just a sh*t situation, we all want to blame someone but we can't. It's fate I'm afraid, pure and simple, we are unlucky with injuries. 

Edited December 16, 20205 yr by Slojo

I honestly feel for him.  Bad game tonight, but what complete mismanagement.  At this rate, we can remove any strikers instinct and convert him to LB by Jan.  

Would love to see him get a sustained run through the middle.  

Its just disappointing.. hes 24 closer to his prime then the others.  He just seems very 1 dimensional. If there isn't open space(which he is finding out there isn't allot of it in the PL) he looks very ordinary. 

5 hours ago, PhilH930 said:

I honestly feel for him.  Bad game tonight, but what complete mismanagement.  At this rate, we can remove any strikers instinct and convert him to LB by Jan.  

Would love to see him get a sustained run through the middle.  

I think its coming...with Olis form he can't be dropped right now. My biggest problem with Lampard is switching Werner to the left wing in the 2nd half....let our best winger available play his best position. Let's not have 2 player out of position. 

9 hours ago, PhilH930 said:

I honestly feel for him.  Bad game tonight, but what complete mismanagement.  At this rate, we can remove any strikers instinct and convert him to LB by Jan.  

Would love to see him get a sustained run through the middle.  

Sure.

But he's also Morata-level in terms of clumsiness and poor finishing. Up until recently he's had plenty of goalscoring chances coming in from the left but messed up the finish over and over.

 

With only 1 wide player available I doubt Lampard would play him Centrally with Pulisic and Mount/Kai out wide, also people criticizing Frank for playing him wide will need to realize that Werner thrives on space and the Central areas are the most congested and lacking in space in the Premier League. Frank realized this quite early that Werner will not get much joy Centrally with his back to goal, out wide he gets a lot more space to run into.

In regards to Werner I am happy with his movement off the ball and finding space the part which I have been a little disappointed in is his anticipation for the ball in the box, last night twice he would've got shots off at goal once when Pulisic cut the ball back for him and the other from Reece's cross. In both scenario's he did not anticipate the ball getting to him and switched off and was caught on his heels. If Frank was to play him as the Central Striker he will need to be more clinical especially due to the fact his hold up play and ability to play with his back to goal is nowhere near Tammy's level never mind Giroud. 

I think the main issue is we're not playing to his strengths.   I've noticed many times when Werner would make a good run in behind and no-one would even noticed it, currently we just seem to recycle the ball until a crossing opportunity occurs then aim for Girouds head.  I distinctively remember him last night swivelling in behind and James just turning back and passing backwards like as if the cross to Giroud isn't on we must try the opposite flank.  I maybe wrong but didn't we mix up our play more earlier in the season? It seems since Girouds 4 goals all we do is cross to Giroud no matter what, even if a simple cut back or through ball is the better option.  Surely we must work on ways of getting Werner in behind in training.  There just doesn't seem to be any link up with Werner and any other players.

2 minutes ago, DarkMata said:

I think the main issue is we're not playing to his strengths.   I've noticed many times when Werner would make a good run in behind and no-one would even noticed it, currently we just seem to recycle the ball until a crossing opportunity occurs then aim for Girouds head.  I distinctively remember him last night swivelling in behind and James just turning back and passing backwards like as if the cross to Giroud isn't on we must try the opposite flank.  I maybe wrong but didn't we mix up our play more earlier in the season? It seems since Girouds 4 goals all we do is cross to Giroud no matter what, even if a simple cut back or through ball is the better option.  Surely we must work on ways of getting Werner in behind in training.  There just doesn't seem to be any link up with Werner and any other players.

👏.. I know a forward’s goal is to score & once he scores job done, but I feel we are worse as a unit with Giroud upfront.

Having Giroud upfront is creating a weird domino effect as we are building our attack to get the best out of him, which is much easier for opposition defences sat deep to deal with.

 

 

20 minutes ago, ducavis said:

👏.. I know a forward’s goal is to score & once he scores job done, but I feel we are worse as a unit with Giroud upfront.

Having Giroud upfront is creating a weird domino effect as we are building our attack to get the best out of him, which is much easier for opposition defences sat deep to deal with.

 

 

Yeah i agree, we are definitely easier to defend against with Giroud, because the center backs can sit back and not get pulled out of position.

Wolves had 3 center backs so the problem was magnified.

That's why Pulisic had so much of a threat against them as he attacked the side of the defence.

With 3 of our 4 wide attackers out, the whole game plan falls apart, we become unbalanced, and Giroud's role is compromised.

We have to look at how we concede goals, it's nearly always happens when our defenders are out of position, running back to goal, or facing goal.

But when we attack with 72% possession, the oppo defence is back in position for 72% of the time.

We need to stretch defenders better, which is hard with only one true wide attacker.

Abraham is much more mobile and does pull defenders out of position, even when he doesn't score he is usually involved in the goals somewhere.

So i think until we have at least 2 wingers back we should play Tammy more.,,,,,or Werner.

10 minutes ago, ducavis said:

👏.. I know a forward’s goal is to score & once he scores job done, but I feel we are worse as a unit with Giroud upfront.

Having Giroud upfront is creating a weird domino effect as we are building our attack to get the best out of him, which is much easier for opposition defences sat deep to deal with.

 

 

I think mainly because we end up with a set front 3 with no real movement or rotation, apart from the out of ideas swapping of wingers.  If we are to play with Giroud surely Werner needs to be close  by to collect flick ons and play 1-2's, rather than playing really wide and isolated.   I mean isn't this one of Girouds main strengths on top of heading from crosses?

For me, it isnt about position with Timo. It is about style of our play over the past couple of games.

Where is the quick one touch passing, where is the speedy build up play, moving the ball at pace? It has gone. Instead, we have reverted back to the "slow, knock it around the back, switch flanks, knock it back again, recycle the ball, aimless cross in" routine, that we always seem to fall back into.

Against teams that sit back deep, as with 80% of the teams we play in the EPL, we must move the ball faster, there has to be more movement.  We cant rely on Zouma, Silva and Kante to create our chances. They dont have the vision or the execution.

If we pass the ball quicker, it pulls opposition players out of position and creates the space that Timo needs to be at his most effective.  But we are not doing that, and have been making it too easy to play against us as a team, which is further magnified when looking at an individual like Werner who thrives in space.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

Him playing on the wings, it has to stop.

He has to get over his tendency to miss completely open goals then.  I've lost count of the number of matches this season when it would have been easier for him to score than to miss, but miss he did.

He was getting into good positions a lot early on, but managing to scoop the ball over the bar or mis-kick completely.  Another confidence thing, or is Malouda putting him off at the crucial time?

5 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

He has to get over his tendency to miss completely open goals then.  I've lost count of the number of matches this season when it would have been easier for him to score than to miss, but miss he did.

He was getting into good positions a lot early on, but managing to scoop the ball over the bar or mis-kick completely.  Another confidence thing, or is Malouda putting him off at the crucial time?

Hes a centre forward who likes to drift outwide, but due to injuries is playing outwide. It's not his game. He has missed chances but so do lots of strikers. The fact he's getting them chances is a good thing. His best performances for us came when playing centre forward, i don't see how anyone can watch him play and think he looks good playing out wide. Im pretty sure if he had been playing upfront he would have had more chances and he wouldn't be goaless in 9 games. This guy apparently missed lots of chances at Leipzig too.

 

4 hours ago, Sindre said:

Sure.

But he's also Morata-level in terms of clumsiness and poor finishing. Up until recently he's had plenty of goalscoring chances coming in from the left but messed up the finish over and over.

 

At this point I feel he was massively overrated, but while Havertz is young and maybe suffering long term Covid-19 effects I don't understand the excuses for Werner. Being played out of position (which isn't even true, since he can play on the wing as well) doesn't make you miss sitters on a regular basis or have a poor first touch. Stop living in denial.

He spent a whole lot of time running like a madman without getting anything from it and then he ends up in a clear-cut chance and he misses it, everyone that followed him last season knew that he isn't a clinical player!
He took a lot of shots last season but because he was the CF and not a winger he could still deliver because he was getting into a goal scoring chance far more often.

We know that he isn't the most clinical but Lampard simply isn't using him in the best way and that is his main responsibility, why did he buy him then if the whole point is to focus on his weaknesses and just expect him to change his whole game in a matter of a few months?

Ah look he clearly can't do what everybody knew that he can't do, what a flop right? Nope, that's on the manager right there, play him in the proper way and he will deliver. This is not why he was bought, you don't buy a 30+ goal scorer so that he goes missing near the corner flag while trying to cross the ball towards Tammy or Giroud. 

We can play to his strengths instead of pointing out that him being outside of his natural game and natural position isn't working out, you don't buy someone that scored 34 goals in 45 games last season to run close to the touchline.

Didn't he create half of his league goals pretty much by himself? That solo goal where he just ran past at least 5 players wasn't a tactical goal of Lampard that was just pure talent, Werner running the counter-attack.
That long ball from Jorginho wasn't an assist for Jorginho because Werner took more than enough touches there and actually created his own goal, that's 2/4 goals where he simply "did his thing".

So it's pretty clear that he's a top player, just use him properly and he'll win you games.

4 hours ago, coco said:

Yeah i agree, we are definitely easier to defend against with Giroud, because the center backs can sit back and not get pulled out of position.

Wolves had 3 center backs so the problem was magnified.

That's why Pulisic had so much of a threat against them as he attacked the side of the defence.

With 3 of our 4 wide attackers out, the whole game plan falls apart, we become unbalanced, and Giroud's role is compromised.

We have to look at how we concede goals, it's nearly always happens when our defenders are out of position, running back to goal, or facing goal.

But when we attack with 72% possession, the oppo defence is back in position for 72% of the time.

We need to stretch defenders better, which is hard with only one true wide attacker.

Abraham is much more mobile and does pull defenders out of position, even when he doesn't score he is usually involved in the goals somewhere.

So i think until we have at least 2 wingers back we should play Tammy more.,,,,,or Werner.

Fair point, someone did actually raise a point in the Match day thread how with Giroud we lacked that striker to run into channels and open up space in the middle. And that was actually a good point. 

But at the end of the day, Giroud scores and to his credit he does play well, he's just severely lacking pace. 

58 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Fair point, someone did actually raise a point in the Match day thread how with Giroud we lacked that striker to run into channels and open up space in the middle. And that was actually a good point. 

But at the end of the day, Giroud scores and to his credit he does play well, he's just severely lacking pace. 

He is what he is, a great goal scorer, but we were playing a lot better, as a team, before he came back, coincidence ? Werner has looked a totally different player since Giroud came in. It might be that Giroud isnt creating any space and more to the point actually getting in the way by being there. Sounds barking mad when he's scored 6 in the last 5 games. But i think their may be something in it. If you compare Abrahams heat maps with Girouds you can see Giroud plays a lot more forward, his main area is the penalty spot against  Wolves, whilst Tammys main area against Newcastle is a good 10-15 yds behind that. 

Either put Tammy back up top or Werner for west ham and see how that goes. we defnitley need to change something up front.

8 hours ago, coco said:

Yeah i agree, we are definitely easier to defend against with Giroud, because the center backs can sit back and not get pulled out of position.

Wolves had 3 center backs so the problem was magnified.

That's why Pulisic had so much of a threat against them as he attacked the side of the defence.

With 3 of our 4 wide attackers out, the whole game plan falls apart, we become unbalanced, and Giroud's role is compromised.

We have to look at how we concede goals, it's nearly always happens when our defenders are out of position, running back to goal, or facing goal.

But when we attack with 72% possession, the oppo defence is back in position for 72% of the time.

We need to stretch defenders better, which is hard with only one true wide attacker.

Abraham is much more mobile and does pull defenders out of position, even when he doesn't score he is usually involved in the goals somewhere.

So i think until we have at least 2 wingers back we should play Tammy more.,,,,,or Werner.

I’ve begun to wonder that too. Even though he’s scoring he may have just disrupted our overall attacking force. We’ve lost both the games he has led the line in the premier league while we won many more with Abraham leading the line. Maybe he’s just more suited for the champions league where teams are lest likely to sit back. 

Correct me if I’m wrong he’s only started a the central striker a couple of times and mostly been deployed on the left, he’s bagged 8 goals so the problem wasn’t adapting to change of league or club. He’s been in front of goal in positions to score a few since his last and fluffed his lines. Not sure you can assign blame to his lack of preferred starting position through the middle maybe confidence coupled with fatigue. Either way it’s obvious the squad needs more depth in the forward positions and this should be Ollys last season a world class replacement is needed as Tammy is not that player yet and maybe won’t be. 

He's more suited to be a wide forward rather than a winger, realistically he should be starting central and drifting wherever the space may be and a goal scoring number 10 like the Havertz we thought we were getting would move into the central space when he does so.

There needs to be a drastically different formation if we are to use our best players properly, that or keep suffering until Ziyech comes back.

I worry about Werner, too. I wouldn't mind the missed sitters if he offered a lot else, but he doesn't really. His link up play it awful, his touch is awful, and he's half assed off of the ball. I couldn't imagine him playing as a CF against 90% of the teams in the league.

3 hours ago, coco said:

He is what he is, a great goal scorer, but we were playing a lot better, as a team, before he came back, coincidence ? Werner has looked a totally different player since Giroud came in. It might be that Giroud isnt creating any space and more to the point actually getting in the way by being there. Sounds barking mad when he's scored 6 in the last 5 games. But i think their may be something in it. If you compare Abrahams heat maps with Girouds you can see Giroud plays a lot more forward, his main area is the penalty spot against  Wolves, whilst Tammys main area against Newcastle is a good 10-15 yds behind that. 

Either put Tammy back up top or Werner for west ham and see how that goes. we defnitley need to change something up front.

That's a fair assessment on Werner, but don't forget, 3 big injuries in the attacking area is going to hurt the team regardless. 
 

Feel sorry for Werner.The amount of times I see him making a run with nobody even trying to find that pass for him...Only ones that try and do that are Joringho and Ziyech and both of them are more on the stands than in the team.The guy was phenomenal for us up until a month ago.I really don't think he's the problem.