I think it's ok for the players to feeling mentally drained after a couple of seasons. Regardless of how much money you were on, if you had a manager that constantly demanded, constantly wanted more from you, never allowed things to be relaxed...we would all burn out and dislike the environment.

It doesn't matter how much money you're on, people are human and need an environmental where they can thrive.

That is why you supplement with new players...

That is why you supplement with new players...

 

We would have if Jose had realistic targets.

We would have if Jose had realistic targets.

Sure or if the club didn't have league 3 targets. Maybe there was a middle ground?

That is why you supplement with new players...

The majority of the squad looked exhausted. You can't "supplement" that many players.

 

Mourinho is just a short term manager. Great in the first 2 years. He'll get the best out of his squad but after that things go downhill fast and don't expect any long term planning from him or much youth integration.

I think it's ok for the players to feeling mentally drained after a couple of seasons. Regardless of how much money you were on, if you had a manager that constantly demanded, constantly wanted more from you, never allowed things to be relaxed...we would all burn out and dislike the environment.

It doesn't matter how much money you're on, people are human and need an environmental where they can thrive.

You think Fergie didnt demand more from his players every day for 20 years? It comes down to how much the players, and the club, are prepared to put in to being successful. If you've got players like Scholes, Keane and Giggs who were absolute professionals and hard-workers then you get success. If your players want the money without the effort, like some of ours, then you get a breakdown between players and manager.

Top players want to win EVERYTHING and will give everything it takes. Then you have good players, who dont give EVERYTHING. Players like Adel Taarabt (remember him), Jay Jay Okocha and Mario Balotelli... Players who have undoubtedly got the talent to be the very best, but settle for somewhere in the middle. And I wouldnt be surprised if Hazard turned out to be one of those.

Now Conte will also demand EVERYTHING, and unless we change our squad around we will find ourselves in the same position in a couple of years time, if not sooner.

I don't buy into the argument that the playing squad was "exhausted" by Jose's demanding nature. The best managers in the world are always demanding and pushing their players to maximise their potential rather than mollycoddle them and hope everything will work out fine with blind optimism and faith.

 

I've heard some say that the players were "burnt out", but some of these players had only been managed by Jose for just ONE season or even less so this bullsh*t that they were exhausted after so many years or that Jose exhausts his players after three years doesn't stack up for mine.

 

It reeks of a weak mentality that has engulfed some of the playing squad and would not have been tolerated a decade ago. The likes of Frank Lampard, Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Wesley Sneijder all said that they would have literally run through a brick wall for this coach when they were managed by him so it's clear Jose was loved and respected by many in the dressing room, especially by those with a strong mentality and a will to continue to improve.

 

If these players thought it was tough under Jose, well they're in for a rude awakening when Conte takes full charge of the squad. From what I've read, this man takes no passengers and doesn't tolerate any bullsh*t from his players.

 

As Mark Bosnich once said, there should be no democracy in the dressing room because the moment players can dictate the dressing room all hell breaks loose. The manager should always rule the roost and this is best exemplified in recent times by the likes of Alex Ferguson at Manchester United and someone like Carlo Ancelotti at AC Milan throughout the 2000s.

Surely theres a middle ground no? I mean you dont have to either exhaust all your resources or be a soft naive cuddler. The best managers find a balance

or, maybe, you know, big maybe, the problem wasn't about the demand like everyone convinced it was
maybe the problem was because teams already figured out how to nullify Jose's tactics, considering he didn't change his tactics since January 2015
or maybe Jose pissed off some players on personal level
or maybe aliens stole the players ability, space jam style

funny thing is, we would never know the real reason, but many fans seem to buy into the narrative that the players don't want to fight, not because they absolutely know the truth, but because it fits their believe that Jose is never wrong

or, maybe, you know, big maybe, the problem wasn't about the demand like everyone convinced it was

maybe the problem was because teams already figured out how to nullify Jose's tactics, considering he didn't change his tactics since January 2015

or maybe Jose pissed off some players on personal level

or maybe aliens stole the players ability, space jam style

funny thing is, we would never know the real reason, but many fans seem to buy into the narrative that the players don't want to fight, not because they absolutely know the truth, but because it fits their believe that Jose is never wrong

 

The problem is that apart from Costa and Fabregas, have the players really improved after he left?

 

Maybe Hiddink has the same flaws or maybe this group of players just overachieved last season. I also doubt you'll find anyone who says Jose is never wrong, just like you won't find anyone who thinks Fergie or Guardiola or Luis Enrique are infallible.

Well considering we were on a relegation pace with José and are howering around 3-5 on the form table with Hiddink, there surely has been some improvement

I also doubt you'll find anyone who says Jose is never wrong, just like you won't find anyone who thinks Fergie or Guardiola or Luis Enrique are infallible.

 

you are right, maybe i won't

but i can easily find fans who'd prefer selling the whole squad rather than sacking Jose, even without the slightest clue about the problem

that's pretty much the same thing no?

to be fair, yes i myself do think some players don't show enough commitment to the club (prime example would be Courtois)

but i don't think that the reason of the catastrophe can be pinned simply to a single cause, especially solely to players' motivation

i personally believe that every element of this club, players, board, and Jose, all at some point made a mistake which led to this horrible season

what's important is that if Conte demand a lot from the player next season, he would nee to be able to motivate them as well

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by magichat

Well considering we were on a relegation pace with José and are howering around 3-5 on the form table with Hiddink, there surely has been some improvement

 

That appears very true on the surface but I think we went through the form of teams we were facing a few pages back and how the performances really haven't changed as much as you'd like to think, but the form of the teams we're facing has.

 

you are right, maybe i won't

but i can easily find fans who'd prefer selling the whole squad rather than sacking Jose, even without the slightest clue about the problem

that's pretty much the same thing no?

 

 

You could also find fans who are happy for Conte to do a massive clearout or for Hiddink to bench established players for the rest of the season. 

 

to be fair, yes i myself do think some players don't show enough commitment to the club (prime example would be Courtois)

but i don't think that the reason of the catastrophe can be pinned simply to a single cause, especially solely to players' motivation

i personally believe that every element of this club, players, board, and Jose, all at some point made a mistake which led to this horrible season

 

 

Absolutely agree, but the fact is that right now only Jose appears to actually be held accountable for his failings. No-one above him is going to be replaced so the system that runs this club hasn't changed which tempers the enthusiasm for Conte a touch. 

 

As you say, Conte needs to motivate these players and by all reports he's a very hard taskmaster. I just don't want to set the guy up to fail which I'm worried we might.

We've been blaming managers for over a decade.

We've been blaming managers for over a decade.

 

True, it's nice to keep traditions going I suppose.

 

I think right now is one of my favourite times of the year when you appoint a new coach and say things will be better this year. It's that warm glow that you get every few years, a bit like when one partner cheats on the other and tries to make amends with promises of 'it'll be different this time baby, promise'.

 

Right now we're in the wooing phase where it's all flowers and candlelit dinners, maybe a foot massage and picnics in the summer sun.

 

Come November one of our heads will be turned, maybe to that gentle, tender Dutch lover who filled a hole (in our hearts!) last Spring and took us on hopeful jaunts around London before that rainy weekend in South Wales. Were things better with him? Do we really have a future with this swarthy Lothario?

 

What's best for the kids too? Eden is sulking and comfort eating again because he just can't cope with being pushed to do his best at school. The other kids are teasing him and he keeps on sneaking KitKats into his bedroom. He's not a bad kid, just at that awkward age where he gets a bit of bumfluff and thinks he's a grown-up, but doesn't know how to express himself. He's got that penpal in Paris who he keeps wanting to run off and see and he's mate Thibaut isn't any better. He's knocked some bird up and dreams of a new life as a barman in Madrid.

 

They just need a hug.

Its mad how when things goes wrong it's the players fault, when they go well the manager is brilliant. Not discrediting what mourinho did to help the team, but whenever we won something with him he got, in my opinion, too much credit considering the players did the work on the pitch. I believe it is the same with all managers whom have great success. You can't polish a turd no matter who you are as a manager, sometimes the acquisitions have to be top notch.

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by enigma

Its mad how when things goes wrong it's the players fault, when they go well the manager is brilliant. 

 

 

Personally I find it maddening when people talk in absolutes.

or, maybe, you know, big maybe, the problem wasn't about the demand like everyone convinced it was

maybe the problem was because teams already figured out how to nullify Jose's tactics, considering he didn't change his tactics since January 2015

or maybe Jose pissed off some players on personal level

or maybe aliens stole the players ability, space jam style

funny thing is, we would never know the real reason, but many fans seem to buy into the narrative that the players don't want to fight, not because they absolutely know the truth, but because it fits their believe that Jose is never wrong

 

 

definitely aliens then...infecting the players...stopped 'em being able to translate Jose's grand-master plan....the fools! 

Its mad how when things goes wrong it's the players fault, when they go well the manager is brilliant. 

 

Not really, I blamed Scolari, AvB and Benitez for being crap managers.

 

But when a title winning squad takes a huge nose dive its a bit of a stretch to put 100% of the blame on one of footballs most successful managers of the past decade. Especially since it's been not that much better with Hiddink.

 

But of course some people want to tell me he's been sh*t all along so hey.

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by Stim

Jose lost the plot this season, this affected the team and we are where we are because of that.

Even at the latter end of last season you could see something was up.

Jose lost the plot this season, this affected the team and we are where we are because of that.

Even at the latter end of last season you could see something was up.

 

Which begs the statement, how on earth did he manage to win the Premiership last year with this bunch of players ?

The man must be a genius! 

Not really, I blamed Scolari, AvB and Benitez for being crap managers.

 

But when a title winning squad takes a huge nose dive its a bit of a stretch to put 100% of the blame on one of footballs most successful managers of the past decade. Especially since it's been not that much better with Hiddink.

 

But of course some people want to tell me he's been sh*t all along so hey.

 

many people alluded to the narrative of jose being too hard in training. i don't know how true this is, but for someone who is supposed to be a great man manager, you have to take your foot off the gas and prevent burn out. maybe training become boring and lacking any kind of enjoyment for the players, which in return caused them to slack and become lackadaisical. we really don't know why the sudden change, but i think lack of pre-season and relations destroyed early on with the club medics were two big issues towards our downfall, then the poor results came early and we struggled to get going which resulted in loss of confidence or motivation - suddenly put in that worrying position, jose panicked and didn't know how to deal with it and turn the results around. 

Edited April 13, 201610 yr by enigma

I don't know about Jose's training methods and things like that. What I know, because he did it publicly, is that when there was a dip, he blamed others. He even blamed the medical staff ffs. If he was doing that very publicly, he was probably blaming others to an even greater degree behind closed doors.

If he had changed his management style to be more supportive and positive, the dip might have been limited to a game or two. Instead he did the opposite, becoming more stubborn and more accusatory as things spiraled out of control.

That is why you supplement with new players...

 

What was the reason Jose stick pretty much with the same 11 week in week out last season? it's not because we didn't have good enough options on the bench but it's simply because he had his favorites..   You're just assuming that he would have gone and utilize the new players but from what we've seen of him, he could very much treat those new players like he treated felipe luis and schurrle and then we're back to square one again..

What was the reason Jose stick pretty much with the same 11 week in week out last season? it's not because we didn't have good enough options on the bench but it's simply because he had his favorites..   You're just assuming that he would have gone and utilize the new players but from what we've seen of him, he could very much treat those new players like he treated felipe luis and schurrle and then we're back to square one again..

 

I don't think we did have that many great options on the bench though. He tried to get a winger, first with Schurrle (who had some mysterious illness, was sold and seems to be a shell of his former self) and then Cuadrado but he came in at the wrong time. Zouma established himself, Luis was a solid deputy who was unlucky not to get more minutes...and that was about it.

 

This wasn't a deep squad and we all knew that from about January on. We all knew it needed two or three top class signings and we just didn't get that.

 

So was the man who was tasked with retaining the title whilst having his squad weakened over a summer in which he was jetting back and forth to support his seriously ill father (because coaches are humans too and have emotions just like us) under immense pressure? Absolutely. Did it come out in the wrong ways? Sometimes yes.

 

Have the people whose job it was to make his like easier by making the right signings been held in any way responsible? Apparently not. 

 

But things will be different this time with Conte won't they? Because he's not a passionate man who can have bust-ups with the press, push his players and have public disputes with the board when they don't get the players he feels he needs.

 

Right? Right??

I don't know about Jose's training methods and things like that. What I know, because he did it publicly, is that when there was a dip, he blamed others. He even blamed the medical staff ffs. If he was doing that very publicly, he was probably blaming others to an even greater degree behind closed doors.

If he had changed his management style to be more supportive and positive, the dip might have been limited to a game or two. Instead he did the opposite, becoming more stubborn and more accusatory as things spiraled out of control.

Perhaps a little Hare Krishna was in order