4 hours ago, coco said:

Can you name one permanent manager we have employed in our recent history that didn't end in tears ?

When a manager leaves any club it always ends in tears, that's why they leave 99% of the time lol. But in our regards it usually ends in tears on the back of some respectable success with the exception of AVB.

32 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Well it's still the job of the manager to set up the team in the best way so that we win. Man United accommodated Fernandes and now he's one of the best players in the league, Lampard didn't do that with his new attackers because very fast he was using Timo and Kai in a strange way.

Only Ziyech played in his natural position and he has the same amount of goals and assists as Havertz that was played outside of his natural position in at least 5 games... Ziyech from the first game had the freedom to play exactly how he wanted to play, he could waste 5 long balls but the 6th was good and it created a chance so he was automatically our best passer since nobody is even trying to do what he's doing, does that show how good he is or how poorly the team is playing overall?

The whole point is that the way we play isn't good enough. Our best win of the season in the PL was against Palace, Mount didn't even play that game and it definitely didn't look like we missed him, but sure scrap that let's just play a very rigid 4-3-3 with Kante as our DM and Mount in his natural position and everyone else should just adapt! He may be essential for Lampard but at what cost?

He has just scored his 2nd goal in the league, that's 1 goal more than Havertz so you're either deliberately playing down Havertz or just overrating whatever other player for whatever reason.

If nothing changes, like this we won't finish in top 4, no matter what you say. You say that if a player trains and plays better that will get him in the team and yet Mount could simply afford to do very little in 5 games in a row and he still played in the 6th regardless, I don't see why would Lampard put all the eggs in that one basket.

If it works then fine but it really doesn't work, we barely had a narrow win over Fulham that is in the end of the day a low-end team, we are happy because they have been in a "good form" with their draws which is a bit pathetic but then again we're sad when we lose to a team that wasn't in a good form prior to playing against us so we basically should be scared against all teams!

There are just a few options here, either we really are a top8 team full of overrated players, or we're really under-performing. But you can't tell me that the player like Kante and Mount that played the most are just so much better than our current bench players, that's just not an option.

I think its been a perfect storm of Covid, no preseason, injuries, players off form, and new players adapting.   I think we overachieved last year and we are underachieving this season. 

This is football and things can change rapidly but like you said we are miles away from a top 4 team right now.  Just look how we play every game. Middle of January and we don't have a win against a top 6 side. Crazy. Lol.  

I think the biggest problem on this team is we don't have a strong enough midfield. And when players are off form there is no one to come in and play better.  Kante is not a natural DM and hes fine there against 85% of the teams but against the good teams he can get exposed. We have Havertz playing as an 8 which is not what he is. He is an offensive midfielder and should be living in the box, but that's not where he's been for most of the season....and Mount is a good Developing player. Do I think he should be playing every single second of every single game for us ? No I do not...but whos pushing him on this team from the bench ?  Kovacic has been disappointing this year to say the least. 

 

7 hours ago, Nibs said:

Yeah, I kind of agree. As much as we have some quality now, the one thing we are really missing is that player who can make that killer pass and really open teams up and hurt them.

We are crying out for a midfielder who can go past one player, then thread that ball through for .............Werner, Pulicic, CHO, Mount - whoever to run onto and score. Unfortunately Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic are not that player - maybe Gimour could be?

Coming to think of it I don’t think we’ve had that kind of player since cesc. It’s no surprise why we’ve struggled to create chances through the middleover the past couple of seasons when playing possession football. Our stats on through balls this season is shocking.

Edited January 17, 20215 yr by Frankie8Lampard

7 hours ago, coco said:

Can you name one permanent manager we have employed in our recent history that didn't end in tears ?

I'd hate to break it to you but almost every manager of every club gets sacked eventually and it's usually because the club isn't happy with the performances/results. So whenever you hire a new man, you know it'll end in tears at some point down the line, you just hope there'll be a few great seasons played and trophies won before that inevitably happens.

9 hours ago, Imran_CFC said:

I agree Lampard needs to play Billy more but I guess after his last injury Frank is looking to limit his minutes due to his age and build. 

We saw glimpses today of how Frank wants to solve the creativity issue by having Ziyech play almost like a number 10 but with Azpi as the right back we lacked any sort of width on the right. 

Ziyech seems to have a free role to me. Lost count of the number of times he popped up on the left alongside the left winger in recent games. He certainly isn't playing as a natural right winger that's for sure. Maybe Frank should start him as the #10 with CHO at right wing and Pulisic on the left, though personally I'd bench Pulisic, play CHO left, Ziyech right (with instructions to stick to the channel) and Havertz is the man to play as the AM and support the striker in the box.

On Havertz, he should be in the team. The opposition must love it when they see a player of that talent languishing on the bench collecting arse splinters ....

7 hours ago, The Brit said:

You’re assuming they were all Lampard buys. 

Oh no. I was just waiting for this when thry hit bad form. Since they are not playing good they are not Lampard buys, but that is simply not true. Both Havertz and Werner said that they came here after talks with Lampard and because he's the manager. 

Now Frank must've told them a very good story to persuade them then, but I dont think those two could be very happy at all with the way they were managed these last few months. 

Frank needs to drop Mount for a few games and at least try a 4-2-3-1 approach and he needs to stop with this whole Giroud/Abraham favourism in that central role. I like both Giroud and Abraham and they do the work sometimes, but Giroud is almost 35 and you just cant rely on him this much. He just bought a 50 million, German national team striker who was absolutely brilliant last season and at the start of this and he completely broke him in 2 months lol

I am a bit worried for Frank. He is making decisions that (from outside at least) look like wrong ones. This feeling is very familiar to us Chelsea fans. Couple of bad results, stubbornness in system and players and then the sack. 

For me not starting CHO is a bit of a crime. I understand Frank here because his other choice for that right hand spot is Ziyech. 

Playing 4-3-3 even though many times the players available are not suited for it. Again I understand Frank is looking at Liverpool that rigidly play 4-3-3 and Mason is thriving in that 8 spot. 

If Frank starts Mount - Kante - Kovacic in 4-3-3 against Leicester and we lose he cannot look elsewhere for blame. 

9 hours ago, The Brit said:

You’re assuming they were all Lampard buys. 

Are you saying that after the transfer ban the board told Lampard who to buy I can't see that happening. Cech scouted  Mendy but I'm pretty sure Lampard had the final word.

2 hours ago, abramovich said:

I'd hate to break it to you but almost every manager of every club gets sacked eventually and it's usually because the club isn't happy with the performances/results. So whenever you hire a new man, you know it'll end in tears at some point down the line, you just hope there'll be a few great seasons played and trophies won before that inevitably happens.

It may be a bit hard for you in particular to understand, but that's what i said, it always ends in tears, it won't be any different for Frank.

8 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Where to start with this. 

1. The comparison between Fernandes and Havertz isn't a good one. OGS has largely set his team up defensively to play on the counter. Fernandes is in his prime and plays a free role with very good cover behind him and has padded out his stats significantly by getting a penalty every other week. We press from the front and that means that the 10 has to get involved without the ball. Havertz isn't as adept at that and so we've been trying to find a role for him that covers his weaknesses and uses his strengths. Besides United lurch from crisis to crescendo every second week, I'd hardly call them a model to work from. 

2. Mount on the other hand is perfect for the way we want to play. He works incredibly hard off the ball and is a critical link player. He doesn't get into the team because of favouritism as many morons suggest but because he fits with the way we want to play and gives his all for the team.

3. This notion of Havertz as this player who should be untouchable because of his talent is a misnomer. Plenty of games I watched for him at Leverkusen, he'd swan around and do nothing for 85 minutes and then score and all you'd hear afterwards was how great he was. The press and social media (probably led by agents) feed into this huge hype game for players who have done nothing. He's a young player with talent yes, but he has work to do (notwithstanding COVID) and he doesn't get to waltz into the team and have us change the whole style of play when he has done nothing to suggest he can be that player. Ziyech in my view has been a much better signing and is probably more deserving of playing a free role if anyone was to do that right now. 

This reminds me of the people who used to carry on about Jose not playing Sheva. You get into the team based on merit not your transfer fee or your social media hype. Train and play better and then you get to be in the team.

Outstanding post.

3 hours ago, mm24 said:

Now Frank must've told them a very good story to persuade them then, but I dont think those two could be very happy at all with the way they were managed these last few months. 

First and foremost they should be really unhappy with their own performances. They've both had plenty of chances to prove that they have something too them.

But honestly, they have both been a hinderance to us for many months now. Which is why they are both firmly planted on the bench at the moment.

14 minutes ago, Sindre said:

First and foremost they should be really unhappy with their own performances. They've both had plenty of chances to prove that they have something too them.

But honestly, they have both been a hinderance to us for many months now. Which is why they are both firmly planted on the bench at the moment.

Yep ,just throw your 150 mil on the bench .Frank's only chance to stay is to make those guys succeed here.Roman won't give him another 200mil to spend if Frank doesn't prove that he actually knows where to direct the money.It's not only those 2 that aren't playing well.Pulisic has also been bad ,along with Tammy and all of our midfield and there I say,not even Ziyech has been good other than in those few games around October/start of November.Werner has at least been good for 2 months lol

1 hour ago, coco said:

It may be a bit hard for you in particular to understand, but that's what i said, it always ends in tears, it won't be any different for Frank.

Quote

Can you name one permanent manager we have employed in our recent history that didn't end in tears ?

Isn't that what you posted? What I meant was, it happens to every manager of every club sooner or later, so no need to single out CFC as if we're some special case, It's the norm, not the exception. I apologize, if I misunderstood. 

How is it Frank’s fault that Werner have messed up about 500 golden chances? Don’t tell me it’s because he’s been playing on the wing, he’s had plenty chances to get goals.

Havertz is only 21, it’d be daft to expect a 21 year old to take the league by storm in first season, and that’s without mentioning extenuating circumstances such as covid.

Its incredibly harsh to pin the Germans form on Lampard imo.

10 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Where to start with this. 

1. The comparison between Fernandes and Havertz isn't a good one. OGS has largely set his team up defensively to play on the counter. Fernandes is in his prime and plays a free role with very good cover behind him and has padded out his stats significantly by getting a penalty every other week. We press from the front and that means that the 10 has to get involved without the ball. Havertz isn't as adept at that and so we've been trying to find a role for him that covers his weaknesses and uses his strengths. Besides United lurch from crisis to crescendo every second week, I'd hardly call them a model to work from. 

2. Mount on the other hand is perfect for the way we want to play. He works incredibly hard off the ball and is a critical link player. He doesn't get into the team because of favouritism as many morons suggest but because he fits with the way we want to play and gives his all for the team.

3. This notion of Havertz as this player who should be untouchable because of his talent is a misnomer. Plenty of games I watched for him at Leverkusen, he'd swan around and do nothing for 85 minutes and then score and all you'd hear afterwards was how great he was. The press and social media (probably led by agents) feed into this huge hype game for players who have done nothing. He's a young player with talent yes, but he has work to do (notwithstanding COVID) and he doesn't get to waltz into the team and have us change the whole style of play when he has done nothing to suggest he can be that player. Ziyech in my view has been a much better signing and is probably more deserving of playing a free role if anyone was to do that right now. 

This reminds me of the people who used to carry on about Jose not playing Sheva. You get into the team based on merit not your transfer fee or your social media hype. Train and play better and then you get to be in the team.

Unfortunately I cannot agree with the pressing idea (they used to do it) but it is only half hearted now and some players are not getting involved at all. If you need a reminder, watch the City game again. As for Mount, look at his Opta stats and you will see that when he plays in midfield, he is not involved enough in his defensive work so he appears to drop in and drop out of the game.

4 hours ago, mm24 said:

Oh no. I was just waiting for this when thry hit bad form. Since they are not playing good they are not Lampard buys, but that is simply not true. Both Havertz and Werner said that they came here after talks with Lampard and because he's the manager. 

Now Frank must've told them a very good story to persuade them then, but I dont think those two could be very happy at all with the way they were managed these last few months. 

Frank needs to drop Mount for a few games and at least try a 4-2-3-1 approach and he needs to stop with this whole Giroud/Abraham favourism in that central role. I like both Giroud and Abraham and they do the work sometimes, but Giroud is almost 35 and you just cant rely on him this much. He just bought a 50 million, German national team striker who was absolutely brilliant last season and at the start of this and he completely broke him in 2 months lol

Drop Mount? Chelsea’s man of the match against Fulham? That makes sense.

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

First and foremost they should be really unhappy with their own performances. They've both had plenty of chances to prove that they have something too them.

But honestly, they have both been a hinderance to us for many months now. Which is why they are both firmly planted on the bench at the moment.

They will continue to be unhappy when the team is set up to play to the opposite of their strengths. All 3 signings, Havertz, Werner and Ziyech came from teams that played in quick forward passing styles attacking teams before they had a chance to organise properly. Even when the opposite were organised, they would still look to play between the lines. With Chelsea's passing, square, square, back, square and painfully slow build up they have no chance of being the players they were. Two poor examples from last night: How many times last night did we see the defenders pass amongst themselves, get under pressure then pass back to Mendy who would resort to a long ball handing the ball back to Fulham? The reason they did this was when they had the ball, all of their colleagues were facing them and if they passed to the midfield it would be just passed back to them. No midfielder is receiving the ball, turning or even receiving the ball when ready to look for a player to their left or right. Slow moving possession football compressing the space as you move up the pitch and then crossing into a crowded area is never going to suit these 3 players, 4 if you add Pelusic.

1 hour ago, mm24 said:

Yep ,just throw your 150 mil on the bench .Frank's only chance to stay is to make those guys succeed here.Roman won't give him another 200mil to spend if Frank doesn't prove that he actually knows where to direct the money.It's not only those 2 that aren't playing well.Pulisic has also been bad ,along with Tammy and all of our midfield and there I say,not even Ziyech has been good other than in those few games around October/start of November.Werner has at least been good for 2 months lol

Didn't say it was a great situation to be in.

Lampard's long term future probably depends on getting them firing in many ways. The club will be extremely unhappy that they are both currently planted on the bench. If that continues to be the case and Lampard can't get us to Top 4 I think it's obvious that he will get sacked. And it could be that the club would be wary of backing him further in the market when the two biggest investments so far have been as poor as they've been.

All I am saying is that Lampard shouldn't get all the blame here. He can't finish or control the ball for Werner and he can't run, pass or dribble for Havertz. Surely he can't be expected to teach them to play football and honestly they have looked like juniors a lot of the time recently.

Many people keep referring to the unbeaten run before the Everton match to justify a forgiven poor patch. Do you realise that in that run Chelsea did not beat any team that are now in the top 9 positions of the PL!

31 minutes ago, The Brit said:

Drop Mount? Chelsea’s man of the match against Fulham? That makes sense.

Yeah, why not. I,ve been reading the match thread before the goal and a lot of people were saying that the midfield doesnt work well and that's been the case for two months now. Only constant in thst midfield is Mount and a 4-3-3 formation. 

Frank tried everything else, all the other combinations, every other mf we have in that trio position with Mount and we dont seem to be able to get on top of teams. 

 

3 minutes ago, mm24 said:

Yeah, why not. I,ve been reading the match thread before the goal and a lot of people were saying that the midfield doesnt work well and that's been the case for two months now. Only constant in thst midfield is Mount and a 4-3-3 formation. 

Frank tried everything else, all the other combinations, every other mf we have in that trio position with Mount and we dont seem to be able to get on top of teams. 

 

Fair enough. But I'd say the issues are with the other two positions. Mount has been one of the better players and seems to give a sh*t, unlike some others. I'd prefer to see Gilmour, Kante and Havertz getting picked and rotated for the other two positions. Jorginho and Kovacic just aren't good enough.

1 minute ago, The Brit said:

Fair enough. But I'd say the issues are with the other two positions. Mount has been one of the better players and seems to give a sh*t, unlike some others. I'd prefer to see Gilmour, Kante and Havertz getting picked and rotated for the other two positions. Jorginho and Kovacic just aren't good enough.

Im more angry that he persists with this formation than anything else. Last season he switched formation way too much and this season he's not doing it at all even though some games cry for it. Everton and Wolves away for example when we practically had no wingers where the games that he just had to switch things up a bit and he didnt. Ever since then and after those losses problems started to pile up and we completely lost confidence.

 

Why not trying Mount alongside Kanté with Kai as number 10?

2 minutes ago, Baba said:

Why not trying Mount alongside Kanté with Kai as number 10?

Who tf knows haha

13 hours ago, The Brit said:

You’re assuming they were all Lampard buys. 

When they signed wasn’t most fans raving how these players signed because of Lampard ? They spoke to him and he convinced them to come or am I remembering incorrectly?