i just cannot work out why we are so slow it takes us 20 passes to move the ball upfield

 

12 minutes ago, Slojo said:

This is exactly why I want Lampard to give Gilmour a chance, just for something different. Our current midfield are not providing any sort of creativity in the middle, but I think that's also due to tactical instructions, not just the players themselves. 

I agree Lampard needs to play Billy more but I guess after his last injury Frank is looking to limit his minutes due to his age and build. 

We saw glimpses today of how Frank wants to solve the creativity issue by having Ziyech play almost like a number 10 but with Azpi as the right back we lacked any sort of width on the right. 

27 minutes ago, Nibs said:

As much as I love RDM, think it is more than apparent that the team rallied after AVB's departure and it was the likes of Cech, Lamps, JT and Drogba who carried us through. We don't have those characters now and the chances of a repeat are slim to zero.

The same was said after Mou was sacked and we went onto win the league.

But we need a different type of reaction this time. Back then the old guard were past their best and the support cast weren't good enough (bar Mata, Luiz and Cahill), we needed someone to rally the player's for one last us vs the world like crack at silverware. It's completely different situation this time, we need a tactician more than a short sharp shock, we have a wonderful set of players that are being undercoached (sorry but they are) and with proper tactical blueprint would look sensational.

Edited January 16, 20215 yr by Argo

1 hour ago, Nibs said:

Jesus, some folk are going over the top again tonight.

Admittedly it wasn't great, but we had 20+ attempts on goal and with better finishing would have won more comfortably against a side who are on a decent run. Some folk seem to be calling for an end to Lamps reign every game we don't win by 3 or more goals.

Leicester will be an even tougher game and I think James has to come in for Azpi, who really is looking his age now and Kante will no doubt come in for Jorginho. CHO must start ahead of wither Pulicic or Ziyech and I guess Zouma will be back in but will Lamps think another game for 36 year old Silva a bit much so stick with Rudiger? We need someone to counter Vardy's pace that'f for sure, but whatever the outcome, I won't be joining the Lamps Out Brigade.

Not really this thread but I wonder if the best thing we could do is move Azpilicueta back into the centre and play him alongside Silva. He is still a better defender than Zouma and Rudiger but his days as a full back are over and his ability to cross a ball is only equalled by ability to recover from sex within a 36 hour window. 

 

Maybe its been too long since he has played there though.

Lampard bought players it seems because they were available and not because they suited his possession based approach to football, he’s now trying to get those players to buy into his philosophy.

Edited January 16, 20215 yr by Brutos

Another problem he has is lack of experience in his coaching staff. He needs an old head especially when things are going badly but I get the impression Lampard wouldn't take kindly to someone giving him advice no matter how well intentioned it was.

Regardless who the manager is, he needs to win games and take the team into the right direction. At moment, not only we aren't winning, we are actually playing that awful football. It's pretty hard to identify any positives about this team.  There's something wrong with the way we attack, just slow passing, nobody making runs, high cross becomes plan A, and nobody is capable of passing a through ball. Sure we could use a better striker, but we had 3 on the field yesterday, until the dying minutes, nobody really had a chance to sccore

The lack of experience in the manager and his team is alarming, like many said before we need experienced manager and coaches. We don't want Lampard to go, but for his sake he needs more experienced people around him, not just the boys he knew from his Chelsea days.

So what's the point of spending so much money on Werner and Havertz when those guys cant even start against Fulham lol

32 minutes ago, Andy2461 said:

i just cannot work out why we are so slow it takes us 20 passes to move the ball upfield

 

I agree, far too many unnecessary passes, we have 20 passes and not make any progress, very few of our defensive players have the ability to make a probing pass, Maybe James and Silva, the same goes for Giorginho and Kovacic, both of whom should not be starting imo as they would'nt start for Liverpool, City, Man Utd or Spuds.

Billy Moves the ball a bit quicker but the glaring problem in our team is in the centre of the park. We need Legs and someone like Saul Niguez or a player similar to Alcantara who passes it with purpose, its all far too slow and far too many unforced passing errors that means we constantly lose momentum.

It's only a matter of time unfortunately...

Breaks my heart, but I just can't see him turning this around.

 

So much moaning. Here I was thinking we won today?

 

14 minutes ago, JoeyN said:

It's only a matter of time unfortunately...

Breaks my heart, but I just can't see him turning this around.

 

One season at lowly Derby in a lower league to a club like Chelsea for a rookie Manager was always going to end tears.

4 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

 

One season at lowly Derby in a lower league to a club like Chelsea for a rookie Manager was always going to end tears.

Can you name one permanent manager we have employed in our recent history that didn't end in tears ?

1 hour ago, mm24 said:

So what's the point of spending so much money on Werner and Havertz when those guys cant even start against Fulham lol

You will have to ask Frank Lampard himself. He bought these players without having a clue how to use them. Neither fits into the 4-3-3 Lampard prefers and he is reluctant to change the system.

57 minutes ago, mm24 said:

So what's the point of spending so much money on Werner and Havertz when those guys cant even start against Fulham lol

Looks like a case of a mismanagement problem that Lampard needs to fix.

I hope that Havertz starts against Leicester he's a really special player to have and even if Mount scored today he's not really doing much he may look like he's very involved but if you put Havertz in that free role he can do a lot more than Mount.

Hope that we can build on this narrow win now, we are very predictable but if are going to rely on the individual quality then we must play Havertz more.

 

1 hour ago, Brutos said:

Lampard bought players it seems because they were available and not because they suited his possession based approach to football, he’s now trying to get those players to buy into his philosophy.

You’re assuming they were all Lampard buys. 

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Looks like a case of a mismanagement problem that Lampard needs to fix.

I hope that Havertz starts against Leicester he's a really special player to have and even if Mount scored today he's not really doing much he may look like he's very involved but if you put Havertz in that free role he can do a lot more than Mount.

Hope that we can build on this narrow win now, we are very predictable but if are going to rely on the individual quality then we must play Havertz more.

 

I'm not sure there is any evidence of mismanagement. I think Havertz looked good before he caught COVID, but he has a lot to learn. He is still playing at Bundesliga pace, he isn't careful enough in possession and doesn't use his natural size to his advantage.

Key challenge for Havertz has been adjusting to the less rigid tactical approach under Frank. Bosz is very rigid and would have had very clear instructions for where Havertz was to move and what was expected. Frank allows players to think for themselves and Havertz looks a little lost. He has far more freedom than he ever had at Leverkusen and doesn't know what to do with it.

Mount must be on half of his salary and does more for the team than Havertz does at the moment.

Edited January 16, 20215 yr by Spiller86

Just now, Spiller86 said:

I'm not sure there is any evidence of mismanagement. I think Havertz looked good before he caught COVID, but he has a lot to learn. He is still playing at Bundesliga pace, he isn't careful enough in possession and doesn't use his natural size to his advantage.

Mount must be on half of his salary and does more for the team than Havertz does. At the moment (and again as we say today Mount justifies being in the team over Havertz)

At Man United Olle just put Fernandes on 1 position, his best and he simply built his team around him as soon as he came, now he broke the PL record when he got to be the player of the month for the 4th time in a calendar year. They did the basics right and it works, we made it harder for Timo and Kai to adapt by using them to cover a hole when needed.

You want to build your tactics around a player like Havertz, not to use him to fill in a spot for Ziyech or whatever, if you really want the best out of him.

Yes Mount scored today, doesn't change the fact that he was a non-factor for the past 5 games or more.

Mount doesn't need to perform constantly, last season he played over 50 games, he's to Lampard what Jorginho was to Sarri but the difference is Lampard depends on his individual growth in order to win games when he builds the team around him while Sarri depended only on his system to work and Jorginho is a system player.

You can't compare Mount that had the whole last season to adapt to the PL to Havertz that only played a handful of games on his primary position without a pre-season. Havertz wasn't bough to sit on the bench, we should sell him as soon as possible if that is the case because otherwise we are just wasting a huge talent.

Got away with it a liitle bit tonight. Managed to rotate and get the 3 points. Hopefully see 4 or 5 changes for Leicester, and a much improved display, because it is getting down to crinch time now. 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

At Man United Olle just put Fernandes on 1 position, his best and he simply built his team around him as soon as he came, now he broke the PL record when he got to be the player of the month for the 4th time in a calendar year. They did the basics right and it works, we made it harder for Timo and Kai to adapt by using them to cover a hole when needed.

You want to build your tactics around a player like Havertz, not to use him to fill in a spot for Ziyech or whatever, if you really want the best out of him.

Yes Mount scored today, doesn't change the fact that he was a non-factor for the past 5 games or more.

Mount doesn't need to perform constantly, last season he played over 50 games, he's to Lampard what Jorginho was to Sarri but the difference is Lampard depends on his individual growth in order to win games when he builds the team around him while Sarri depended only on his system to work and Jorginho is a system player.

You can't compare Mount that had the whole last season to adapt to the PL to Havertz that only played a handful of games on his primary position without a pre-season. Havertz wasn't bough to sit on the bench, we should sell him as soon as possible if that is the case because otherwise we are just wasting a huge talent.

Where to start with this. 

1. The comparison between Fernandes and Havertz isn't a good one. OGS has largely set his team up defensively to play on the counter. Fernandes is in his prime and plays a free role with very good cover behind him and has padded out his stats significantly by getting a penalty every other week. We press from the front and that means that the 10 has to get involved without the ball. Havertz isn't as adept at that and so we've been trying to find a role for him that covers his weaknesses and uses his strengths. Besides United lurch from crisis to crescendo every second week, I'd hardly call them a model to work from. 

2. Mount on the other hand is perfect for the way we want to play. He works incredibly hard off the ball and is a critical link player. He doesn't get into the team because of favouritism as many morons suggest but because he fits with the way we want to play and gives his all for the team.

3. This notion of Havertz as this player who should be untouchable because of his talent is a misnomer. Plenty of games I watched for him at Leverkusen, he'd swan around and do nothing for 85 minutes and then score and all you'd hear afterwards was how great he was. The press and social media (probably led by agents) feed into this huge hype game for players who have done nothing. He's a young player with talent yes, but he has work to do (notwithstanding COVID) and he doesn't get to waltz into the team and have us change the whole style of play when he has done nothing to suggest he can be that player. Ziyech in my view has been a much better signing and is probably more deserving of playing a free role if anyone was to do that right now. 

This reminds me of the people who used to carry on about Jose not playing Sheva. You get into the team based on merit not your transfer fee or your social media hype. Train and play better and then you get to be in the team.

2 hours ago, coco said:

Can you name one permanent manager we have employed in our recent history that didn't end in tears ?

There's a difference though. Conte ended in tears but he still won things, as did Mourinho, Carlo etc. 

Although I wouldn't put Lampard down as an AVB situation, Lampard did do a great job last season, a cup final and top 4. But this is his first real test, and it's looking Di-Matteoish. I fell in love with Robbie after his first season here, won us two trophies, and the BIG ONE. After that I thought he was the man, Roman has to give him the contract, but now I see why the board were so reluctant. In the longrun, it was the right decision to axe him after that shocking Juventus game (I think it was, or shortly after that). I think it's going to be the same situation with Frank, I think in the long run, we'll agree with it, just right now it's difficult to accept it. 

1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

Where to start with this. 

1. The comparison between Fernandes and Havertz isn't a good one. OGS has largely set his team up defensively to play on the counter. Fernandes is in his prime and plays a free role with very good cover behind him and has padded out his stats significantly by getting a penalty every other week. We press from the front and that means that the 10 has to get involved without the ball. Havertz isn't as adept at that and so we've been trying to find a role for him that covers his weaknesses and uses his strengths. Besides United lurch from crisis to crescendo every second week, I'd hardly call them a model to work from. 

2. Mount on the other hand is perfect for the way we want to play. He works incredibly hard off the ball and is a critical link player. He doesn't get into the team because of favouritism as many morons suggest but because he fits with the way we want to play and gives his all for the team.

3. This notion of Havertz as this player who should be untouchable because of his talent is a misnomer. Plenty of games I watched for him at Leverkusen, he'd swan around and do nothing for 85 minutes and then score and all you'd hear afterwards was how great he was. The press and social media (probably led by agents) feed into this huge hype game for players who have done nothing. He's a young player with talent yes, but he has work to do (notwithstanding COVID) and he doesn't get to waltz into the team and have us change the whole style of play when he has done nothing to suggest he can be that player. Ziyech in my view has been a much better signing and is probably more deserving of playing a free role if anyone was to do that right now. 

This reminds me of the people who used to carry on about Jose not playing Sheva. You get into the team based on merit not your transfer fee or your social media hype. Train and play better and then you get to be in the team.

Well it's still the job of the manager to set up the team in the best way so that we win. Man United accommodated Fernandes and now he's one of the best players in the league, Lampard didn't do that with his new attackers because very fast he was using Timo and Kai in a strange way.

Only Ziyech played in his natural position and he has the same amount of goals and assists as Havertz that was played outside of his natural position in at least 5 games... Ziyech from the first game had the freedom to play exactly how he wanted to play, he could waste 5 long balls but the 6th was good and it created a chance so he was automatically our best passer since nobody is even trying to do what he's doing, does that show how good he is or how poorly the team is playing overall?

The whole point is that the way we play isn't good enough. Our best win of the season in the PL was against Palace, Mount didn't even play that game and it definitely didn't look like we missed him, but sure scrap that let's just play a very rigid 4-3-3 with Kante as our DM and Mount in his natural position and everyone else should just adapt! He may be essential for Lampard but at what cost?

He has just scored his 2nd goal in the league, that's 1 goal more than Havertz so you're either deliberately playing down Havertz or just overrating whatever other player for whatever reason.

If nothing changes, like this we won't finish in top 4, no matter what you say. You say that if a player trains and plays better that will get him in the team and yet Mount could simply afford to do very little in 5 games in a row and he still played in the 6th regardless, I don't see why would Lampard put all the eggs in that one basket.

If it works then fine but it really doesn't work, we barely had a narrow win over Fulham that is in the end of the day a low-end team, we are happy because they have been in a "good form" with their draws which is a bit pathetic but then again we're sad when we lose to a team that wasn't in a good form prior to playing against us so we basically should be scared against all teams!

There are just a few options here, either we really are a top8 team full of overrated players, or we're really under-performing. But you can't tell me that the player like Kante and Mount that played the most are just so much better than our current bench players, that's just not an option.

11 hours ago, Gol15 said:

True but it's also fair to say that Lampard abandoned the 4-2-3-1 pretty fast due to different reasons but our best win in the league this season was when we played 4-2-3-1 against Palace, we totally controlled that game and after our first goal Palace tried to risk more and they just got outclassed.

Man it was so long ago, all I remembered was we fouled at lot and zaha was useless. 

My point on 4231 is football is not as easy as fm or fifa Havertz is an am, puli is a lw, ziyech is a rw, werner is a st. 4231 works. Take Ziyech for a example, he is rw but he like to drift middle a lot where Havertz want to play. Werner like to drift wide left and play too close to puli. 

 

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

At Man United Olle just put Fernandes on 1 position, his best and he simply built his team around him as soon as he came, now he broke the PL record when he got to be the player of the month for the 4th time in a calendar year. They did the basics right and it works, we made it harder for Timo and Kai to adapt by using them to cover a hole when needed.

You want to build your tactics around a player like Havertz, not to use him to fill in a spot for Ziyech or whatever, if you really want the best out of him.

Yes Mount scored today, doesn't change the fact that he was a non-factor for the past 5 games or more.

Mount doesn't need to perform constantly, last season he played over 50 games, he's to Lampard what Jorginho was to Sarri but the difference is Lampard depends on his individual growth in order to win games when he builds the team around him while Sarri depended only on his system to work and Jorginho is a system player.

You can't compare Mount that had the whole last season to adapt to the PL to Havertz that only played a handful of games on his primary position without a pre-season. Havertz wasn't bough to sit on the bench, we should sell him as soon as possible if that is the case because otherwise we are just wasting a huge talent.

This is a bad take. Mount has outperformed Havertz in any position that they played, it was so obvious. Btw we are talking like Havertz is messi or at least Hazard, he need to show it first before we can start building around him. 

2nd united is built around fernandes which mean it is difficult to fit pogba into the team. Not sure that is a good thing. Fernandes has been very good but the biggest reason United have been this good is penalties, ole has turned united into penalty aka diving machine. 

5 hours ago, mm24 said:

So what's the point of spending so much money on Werner and Havertz when those guys cant even start against Fulham lol

Because whoever aprrove all this signing need to have his head checked.