1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Mount is now being played in his most natural position as the AM to the left and he isn't doing much better than Havertz that is being played way out wide... Mount got most of his assists from corners anyway.

 

I think we should just agree to disagree. For me Mount was one of our best players in recent weeks and has shown incredible progress. He is excellent at applying pressure off the ball, does well finishing from outside the box, good corners (usually), unselfish and team-oriented. He is doing WAY better than Havertz and it's not even remotely close either.

20 minutes ago, charierre said:

Looking like exactly what he is, a young player who has potential and possibly moved country too early. Danger is his confidence could get shattered. We will have to have patience with him otherwise we could end up looking at a DeBruyne situation and saying if only in three years time.

I just think he needs to make adjustments to his game. I don't think his passive style works in the Premier League, it's too pacy for that type of football. Both Ozil and Pogba tried to play that way and it's not worked out for either of them. Berbatov and Anelka were like this too and they were both hit and miss throughout their careers. It wasn't so bad for them though because they were strikers, their job was more about finishing than it was the other parts of the game.

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

Has to be said, the kid is just not good enough to influence games on his own at the moment. It's hard to actually say that and ignore the transfer fee, even though the rational side of me knows it was a potential signing. 

At this moment in time, I would seriously rather just play Anjorin or Mount on the wing (yeah Mount, I really just said that) and give Gilmour the minutes in the middle. Because at the moment, this kid just can't do it, he's either over thinking it or he's just shot for confidence. He looks like he wants to coast games and keep it as simple as possible but while doing that he's also over thinking it and misplacing simple balls that you could do with your eyes closed. 

It's giving me Bakayoko vibes, trying to coast the game and not make any mistakes but you end up making more mistakes with that sort of mentality. I could be way off here... But I don't think he should be starting any games until we get more players back and Kai can play in a more central position. He's just not reliable enough to be our central attacking player right now. 

It’s a shame because I actually thought he was starting to make progress before he got COVID. He wasn’t  spectacular but he was starting to understand his teammates and fit into the team. Right now it just isn’t working out and it doesn’t help that he’s being played out of position. He needs to be dropped and sit out a few games/ come off the bench.

Edited December 12, 20205 yr by Frankie8Lampard

Just now, reparto corse said:

I think we should just agree to disagree. For me Mount was one of our best players in recent weeks and has shown incredible progress. He is excellent at applying pressure off the ball, does well finishing from outside the box, good corners (usually), unselfish and team-oriented. He is doing WAY better than Havertz and it's not even remotely close either.

OK but do you agree that Lampard could have played Werner with Giroud in the front line where Werner's natural game would have impacted the game?

I agree that Mount is playing better than Havertz, but keep in mind that he's playing at his natural position all the time now, I agree that he's one of our best players but when Havertz was played centrally in his own natural position as the AM just like Mount he was also playing very well, the last time that happened was against Sevilla which was Kai's first start in around 2 months and he automatically made an assist early on in the game. I saw Mount being played outside of his natural position as a winger and he didn't do well, similar to how Havertz is doing as a wide midfielder or winger actually.

10 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

OK but do you agree that Lampard could have played Werner with Giroud in the front line where Werner's natural game would have impacted the game?

I agree that Mount is playing better than Havertz, but keep in mind that he's playing at his natural position all the time now, I agree that he's one of our best players but when Havertz was played centrally in his own natural position as the AM just like Mount he was also playing very well, the last time that happened was against Sevilla which was Kai's first start in around 2 months and he automatically made an assist early on in the game. I saw Mount being played outside of his natural position as a winger and he didn't do well, similar to how Havertz is doing as a wide midfielder or winger actually.

No I don't agree. I don't see how we could do well without having any wide players other than Chilwell and James. Regarding Werner, in my opinion, if you play him with Giroud he is always going to drift towards the left and look to cut in. Werner is simply not a traditional CF like Drogba or Diego Costa. He relies on speed and making runs instead of great control and accurate finishing.  

I have watched plenty of RB Leipzig games over the years as I am German and they are the Bundesliga team closest to my home town and Werner's role isn't that different compared to his time in Leipzig. The only issue he has at the moment is that he is going through a phase where his finishing is off. Many strikers have this issue from time to time so I wouldn't be too worried about him.  

Edited December 12, 20205 yr by reparto corse

You can see Havertz just wants to much time on the ball and he is struggling to do the basics specially with his passing and creativity.

18 minutes ago, reparto corse said:

No I don't agree. I don't see how we could do well without having any wide players other than Chilwell and James. Regarding Werner, in my opinion, if you play him with Giroud he is always going to drift towards the left and look to cut in. Werner is simply not a traditional CF like Drogba or Diego Costa. He relies on speed and making runs instead of great control and accurate finishing.  

I have watched plenty of RB Leipzig games over the years as I am German and they are the Bundesliga team closest to my home town and Werner's role isn't that different compared to his time in Leipzig. The only issue he has at the moment is that he is going through a phase where his finishing is off. Many strikers have this issue from time to time so I wouldn't be too worried about him.  

Well Chilwell and James are our best players right now to put a cross in. At least like that you're not playing anyone outside of their natural position and they will perform better, I don't see anyone other than James and Chilwell being capable to put in a good cross and Lampard plays them high up the pitch anyway.

Giroud dropping deep and winning a header for Werner that is running into space, sounds like a great partnership to me. Not so much different from Giroud making space for Griezmann while playing for France on paper. 

He's not a bloody winger...every time he plays there he looks uncomfortable it's the mangers job to play the players where their  attributes fit and this guy is absolutely not a winger in the slightest.

15 hours ago, Brutos said:

He's not a bloody winger...every time he plays there he looks uncomfortable it's the mangers job to play the players where their  attributes fit and this guy is absolutely not a winger in the slightest.

Played half of his senior career in that position. It's not alien to him to play that position and with no Ziyech, CHO or Pulisic available he is the most suited to play that right sided role for us. 

He's just good enough right now to make the starting 11; he's way off the pace and games pass him by.  He might need an arm around his shoulder but he needs to work harder and be a lot more street smart when he's on the ball, he's getting caught in possession far too often forcing him to hurry his passes.  This league will chew you up and spit you out if you are not careful.  Maybe a few games in the U23's to get his confidence going might work.

Could this possibly be a player that is just not suited to 100mph style of the more agricultural PL, he could still be WC, in the less hectic Bundesliga or La liga ?

3 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Played half of his senior career in that position. It's not alien to him to play that position and with no Ziyech, CHO or Pulisic available he is the most suited to play that right sided role for us. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/kai-havertz/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/309400 He has played more than enough games at Right Wing to say he is capable of fulfilling the role.

2 minutes ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Could this possibly be a player that is just not suited to 100mph style of the more agricultural PL, he could still be WC, in the less hectic Bundesliga or La liga ?

A bit like DeBruyne when he first came back to us from Bremen he is struggling to adapt to the increased physicality of our league. He will need time, in an ideal world we would have loaned him this season to let him gain some experience but at his cost that wasn't possible. At present he looks like a player who could get targeted by the opposition and bullied.

If we assume Lampard will continue to use 4-3-3 there is only one spot really he can and will fight for in the future. I think it's a given that Mount will be one of the 8's in front of a defensive midfielder which leaves one spot. He's going to be in for a fight to claim that spot. Not saying he can't do it but the competition will only get tougher. Kovacic is doing great right now, Gallagher is really impressing for WBA and looks tailor made for the position and Billy Gilmour is also knocking on the door and have looked good there so far.

Still going to press on with my reverse psychology against Sir John Cosmos;

He’s absolutely sh*t, will never adapt to the league and will be out on loan for years to come with his presumable hero Bakayoko. 
 

(That should get him playing well)

An £80 million purchase for Rice, would of been better, unless he bulks up a bit, or discovers his inner Ballack, he might not cut it for us, i really want  him to succeed, he looks elegant on the ball, when he has time, its time he's not been given, hence his hospital balls he was dishing against Everton

 

53 minutes ago, Sindre said:

If we assume Lampard will continue to use 4-3-3 there is only one spot really he can and will fight for in the future. I think it's a given that Mount will be one of the 8's in front of a defensive midfielder which leaves one spot. He's going to be in for a fight to claim that spot. Not saying he can't do it but the competition will only get tougher. Kovacic is doing great right now, Gallagher is really impressing for WBA and looks tailor made for the position and Billy Gilmour is also knocking on the door and have looked good there so far.

I thought Kovacic was just as poor as Havertz against Everton to be honest. Several challanges he just chickened out off and he didn't make any good runs with the ball. Things didn't exactly improve once Havertz went off either, playing Abrahams, Giroud and Werner at the same time was a disaster.

Edited December 13, 20205 yr by comtrend

28 minutes ago, Ballack & Blu said:

An £80 million purchase for Rice, would of been better, unless he bulks up a bit, or discovers his inner Ballack, he might not cut it for us, i really want  him to succeed, he looks elegant on the ball, when he has time, its time he's not been given, hence his hospital balls he was dishing against Everton

 

I honestly don't see whats all the fuss is about Rice! Besides do we really need him? 

In regards to Havertz this is were patience is required. He is still a young man, new country etc etc. Cristiano Ronaldo had skill when he first arrived at MU but weak physically, falling or diving all the time we used to say back then. Once he developed physically the rest is history one of the greatest players of all time.

Havertz needs that time and patience from us. We made similar mistakes in the past with Salah, de bruyne etc and I truly believe that Havertz can match them or even surpass their level if managed correctly. 

This is why Lampard bought him:

 

The last time he played in his most natural role as the attacking central midfielder he delivered an assist against Sevilla (after having covid and not playing for around 2 months), he was in the starting lineup in our most convincing wins this season so far as well.

We need to be Patient with Him or we could end up with the same situation that we faced with De Bruyne. He's 21 years old, you can see the lad has an abundance of ability, he just needs to be given the time to adjust. He needs to knuckle down and do the simple stuff first and foremost, At the moment he's trying to look like a cross between Gullit and Zidane and he's being shut down, even the simple 5 yard passes are going astray.

I think he's in good hands with Lamps, he will understand that the transformation is proving Tough, its up to the supporters to show the same patience.

Emerson played in our most convincing wins against Sevilla and Barnsley, can someone let him know please so he can go and bang on Maria’s door for his juicy bonus

Clearly a very, very talented player we have in him imo.

He is struggling to get his grove after covid and getting used to a new league. 

He was the only one of the front 3 who showed for the ball and tried things. He was poor but he kept trying. We saw nothing of Werner and Giroud basically.

We know Giroud does not have many season left with us. How exciting is the prospect of Werner and Havertz fully acclimatized and settled in our team with the like of Mount, James and Chilwell though. Building a very exciting team.

10 hours ago, Osgoodwasgood said:

We need to be Patient with Him or we could end up with the same situation that we faced with De Bruyne. He's 21 years old, you can see the lad has an abundance of ability, he just needs to be given the time to adjust. He needs to knuckle down and do the simple stuff first and foremost, At the moment he's trying to look like a cross between Gullit and Zidane and he's being shut down, even the simple 5 yard passes are going astray.

I think he's in good hands with Lamps, he will understand that the transformation is proving Tough, its up to the supporters to show the same patience.

Patience is key. Not every new player can hit the ground running. I think we underestimate how tough it must be for a 21-year old to move abroad and play in a league different from the one he played in all his life, and in the meantime recover from the effects of his corona infection. Doubtlessly he's being supported professionally by the club, and hopefully he has  some sort of private support system - a partner, a parent - as well. 

 

Can we just give him time rather than getting on his back, he will come good.

Do listen Frank and get off Kai's back. He will come good but it's important that the pressure remains off whole he develops. Remember he is 21, in a new culture, league and style of play, during a season where physical demands are unusually high and he's just coming off COVID. If he doesn't come good anytime this entire season (yes, I am happy to give him a full season!), I will begin to worry.

What he seems to have on his side, as do Mount and Werner, that is severely underrated is the ability to stay fit and avoid injuries. 

There are valid criticism on him for the last few games, but let's be real we didn't sign him for 6 months but 5 years , he's still raw and we just need to be patient with him. Lampard was absolutely right to bat for him, be a disaster for both the player and morale of the team if he said anything different.