Call it off, no wonder he didn't end up playing for Ireland:

One of the best advice I’ve got from old man - Never trust anyone that doesn’t drink beer.

2 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

One of the best advice I’ve got from old man - Never trust anyone that doesn’t drink beer.

Never trust a man in a cap was my Dad's. Not sure why.

1 hour ago, Liam said:

Never trust a man in a cap was my Dad's. Not sure why.

My advice to myself is Stay clear of men in red pants. In football I've extended this to Loathe every team in red. 

38 minutes ago, Valerie said:

My advice to myself is Stay clear of men in red pants.

Poor Superman!

20 minutes ago, Michael said:

Poor Superman!

Sillyman, you mean...

On 07/06/2021 at 23:46, WhiteWall said:

Serious question. What does Rice actually do to warrant the money and desire to sign. 

This is a genuine question. I only see a fairly average player who rarely commands a game, not whenever I have seen him. Generally seems to follow the ball around and makes a few tackles now and then.

I am clearly missing something.  What are his main attributes and how does he compare to other elite European defensive midfielders. The money being quoted would warrant comparison to Europe's top players in the position 

People used to ask the same questions about Essien. Look how that turned out.

On 07/06/2021 at 23:46, WhiteWall said:

Serious question. What does Rice actually do to warrant the money and desire to sign. 

This is a genuine question. I only see a fairly average player who rarely commands a game, not whenever I have seen him. Generally seems to follow the ball around and makes a few tackles now and then.

I am clearly missing something.  What are his main attributes and how does he compare to other elite European defensive midfielders. The money being quoted would warrant comparison to Europe's top players in the position 

I’m sort of with @WhiteWall in this one. Admittedly I haven’t seen enough of him but when I have I would have expected him to show a bit more. All the “experts” seem to have a great word on him as do a lot on this forum especially about his leadership qualities.

If we pay the big bucks for him I hope people are right.

11 minutes ago, goose said:

I’m sort of with @WhiteWall in this one. Admittedly I haven’t seen enough of him but when I have I would have expected him to show a bit more. All the “experts” seem to have a great word on him as do a lot on this forum especially about his leadership qualities.

If we pay the big bucks for him I hope people are right.

 I could understand the calls to sign him last summer when Lampard's system needed a sitting DM but now I'm not really getting it.

We are defensively solid and controlling games in the middle against even the best opposition, there isn't a gap in our team for a sitter type this time round.

As I see it, it would give us more defensive cover and allow us to play other formations like a 433. Not too bothered if it’s Rice or any other identified.

9 hours ago, Argo said:

 I could understand the calls to sign him last summer when Lampard's system needed a sitting DM but now I'm not really getting it.

We are defensively solid and controlling games in the middle against even the best opposition, there isn't a gap in our team for a sitter type this time round.

Isn't Jorginho a sitter-type player?

2 hours ago, Deino said:

Isn't Jorginho a sitter-type player?

You missed an "h" out mate....

14 hours ago, Argo said:

 I could understand the calls to sign him last summer when Lampard's system needed a sitting DM but now I'm not really getting it.

We are defensively solid and controlling games in the middle against even the best opposition, there isn't a gap in our team for a sitter type this time round.

We weren’t and we are not even close, you put a little pressure on Jorginho and he has a mistake in him. There were loads of examples towards the end of the season, and like RMH pointed out it would allow us to switch to a 4-3-3

2 hours ago, dkw said:

You missed an "h" out mate....

I thought that was Gary Lineker 

33 minutes ago, ducavis said:

We weren’t and we are not even close, you put a little pressure on Jorginho and he has a mistake in him. There were loads of examples towards the end of the season, and like RMH pointed out it would allow us to switch to a 4-3-3

I think we are more defensively solid particularly when set in a structure without the ball. The games we have struggled in have been all about the counter-attack which is where Jorginho's lack of pace and/or Kovacic's slightly questionable effort when making recovery runs hurts us. Rice could help on both counts. I think he is more than a sitter as well, he has become a more all round player this year.

That said, I'm with @goose on Rice. For the reported pennies we'd have to pay, he'd want to be one of the best five players in his position in the world. I remain to be convinced that he is. 

For mine I think the Rice argument has a lot to do with him being a Chelsea junior and his relationship with Mount. Nice to have more players who have grown up in our system and have a connection.

I personally think we need more of a hunter similar to Kante. Someone with high energy who can attack and press rather than someone who dictates from deep. So much of our deep build up play is done by the CBs I suspect someone who can play further up the park and crucially create the angles and make those passes inside the opposition block rather than passing it around the opposition in the U shape of death. 

Edited June 16, 20215 yr by Spiller86

22 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

I think we are more defensively solid particularly when set in a structure without the ball. The games we have struggled in have been all about the counter-attack which is where Jorginho's lack of pace and/or Kovacic's slightly questionable effort when making recovery runs hurts us. Rice could help on both counts. I think he is more than a sitter as well, he has become a more all round player this year.

That said, I'm with @goose on Rice. For the reported pennies we'd have to pay, he'd want to be one of the best five players in his position in the world. I remain to be convinced that he is. 

For mine I think the Rice argument has a lot to do with him being a Chelsea junior and his relationship with Mount. Nice to have more players who have grown up in our system and have a connection.

I personally think we need more of a hunter similar to Kante. Someone with high energy who can attack and press rather than someone who dictates from deep. So much of our deep build up play is done by the CBs I suspect someone who can play further up the park and crucially create the angles and make those passes inside the opposition block rather than passing it around the opposition in the U shape of death. 

Yep, we are debating a lot about the Jorginho role and getting a DM that allows us to go with a more offensive set up against low block teams, but equally important is to upgrade the Kovacic position with someone that has a better vision around the box. Kova is great keeping the ball in tight spaces and taking it to the opponents half, but he hasn't got that last pass to the space that we'd require against teams that park the bus. Maybe the answer is playing Gilmour there, he is quite good on the ball and has plenty of intelligence and a range of passes. It would be interesting to see a midfield of Gilmour - DM/Rice - Kante.

2 hours ago, ducavis said:

We weren’t and we are not even close, you put a little pressure on Jorginho and he has a mistake in him. 

Apart from all these big games we won conceding next to nothing. 

17 hours ago, Argo said:

 I could understand the calls to sign him last summer when Lampard's system needed a sitting DM but now I'm not really getting it.

We are defensively solid and controlling games in the middle against even the best opposition, there isn't a gap in our team for a sitter type this time round.

Mount - Werner - Havertz 

Chilwell - Jorgi - Kante - James

Rudi - Silva - azpi

Just by looking at that lineup, who do you think is upgradeable? 

 

 

Edited June 16, 20215 yr by Bob stark

8 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Mount - Werner - Havertz 

Chilwell - Jorgi - Kante - James

Rudi - Silva - azpi

Just by looking at that lineup, who do you think is upgradeable? 

 

 

Not saying there can't be a Jorginho upgrade somewhere, it just won't be Rice.

Edited June 16, 20215 yr by Argo

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Not saying there can't be a Jorginho upgrade, it just won't be Rice.

Do you think that we should stick to the 343 all this coming season, even against lesser teams? If not, do you think Jorginho can play as the sitting back midfielder with a back 4? (I'm asking just because I am genuinely interested in your opinion about getting a DM)

Just now, RMH said:

Do you think that we should stick to the 343 all this coming season, even against lesser teams? If not, do you think Jorginho can play as the sitting back midfielder with a back 4? (I'm asking just because I am genuinely interested in your opinion about getting a DM)

I think we can make a wingback system work against the lesser sides, that is why I am on the Hakimi train as I think he's a massive gamechanger. The thing with the wingback formation is there's a fine line between it being too defensive and very well balanced. James and Chilwell were excellent in the big games but a good balance against the lesser sides would be James tucking in to RCB for a Hakimi type (with CHO as the backup).

I think the modern game is more DLP suited as the sitter infront of the defense, even if we ignore Jorginho we have examples like De Jong, Fernandinho and Thiago (at Bayern) who were the heartbeat of their teams success (not to mention the ultimate one in Pirlo who was underestimated in England until he gave our national team a masterclass in Euro's, infact IIRC the rumours we were going to sign him weren't exactly meet with excitement).

Successful teams in recent years always seem to have a deep playmaker, the only real exception is Liverpool and even they have tried to get in the game with the Thiago signing.

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

I think we can make a wingback system work against the lesser sides, that is why I am on the Hakimi train as I think he's a massive gamechanger. The thing with the wingback formation is there's a fine line between it being too defensive and very well balanced. James and Chilwell were excellent in the big games but a good balance against the lesser sides would be James tucking in to RCB for a Hakimi type (with CHO as the backup).

I think the modern game is more DLP suited as the sitter infront of the defense, even if we ignore Jorginho we have examples like De Jong, Fernandinho and Thiago (at Bayern) who were the heartbeat of their teams success (not to mention the ultimate one in Pirlo who was underestimated in England until he gave our national team a masterclass in Euro's, infact IIRC the rumours we were going to sign him weren't exactly meet with excitement).

Successful teams in recent years always seem to have a deep playmaker, the only real exception is Liverpool and even they have tried to get in the game with the Thiago signing.

OK, thanks. A balanced view although I don't agree in the comparison of Jorginho with De Jong, Fernandinho or Thiago, who I think are more solid defensively than Jorginho and better creators (at least Thiago maybe not Fernandinho). I don't want Rice to play as a Jorginho, he hasn't got the attributes, but I was thinking more of a midfield like Real Madrid used to have with younger Kroos and Modric making the attacking moves and Casimiro sitting to protect the defence. I think that type of midfield would be ideal for lesser teams while keeping the actual formation for the top teams that are going to come at you.

14 hours ago, Argo said:

Not saying there can't be a Jorginho upgrade somewhere, it just won't be Rice.

My point is just by looking at that lineup, imo there are very clear 3 positions that are realistically upgradeable. 

Can you find midfielder who can do recycling job and more. I think so. 

Can you find wb whose game is suited to wb? Sure. 

Can you find striker who is good and running behind and more? Sure. 

Edited June 17, 20215 yr by Bob stark

14 hours ago, RMH said:

OK, thanks. A balanced view although I don't agree in the comparison of Jorginho with De Jong, Fernandinho or Thiago, who I think are more solid defensively than Jorginho and better creators (at least Thiago maybe not Fernandinho). I don't want Rice to play as a Jorginho, he hasn't got the attributes, but I was thinking more of a midfield like Real Madrid used to have with younger Kroos and Modric making the attacking moves and Casimiro sitting to protect the defence. I think that type of midfield would be ideal for lesser teams while keeping the actual formation for the top teams that are going to come at you.

If you can find a young version of Busquets that would be the ideal DM for us. The problem is that such a player is impossible to find.

I posted in the past about a 19-20 year old talent Sandro Tonali but here nobody cared because it's "just another Italian"...

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

If you can find a young version of Busquets that would be the ideal DM for us. The problem is that such a player is impossible to find.

I posted in the past about a 19-20 year old talent Sandro Tonali but here nobody cared because it's "just another Italian"...

I rate Tonali highly, reminds me of a young Pirlo. but he is potentially  signing for Milan. Think he needs at least 2 more seasons of regular football before making the jump to a bigger club.