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Kev56

Jose


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Did we win the league in 2005 because of Jose, or despite him ? Looking at the players/staff we had already in place, Terry and Lampard, plus Steve Clarke continuing the good work Claudio put into the club. The more you look at it the more you think we would of won the league anyway.

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1 minute ago, Ewell CFC said:

You could have put June Whitfield in charge in 2005 and we’d still have romped it.

Not true. He did fantastic work for the club during his first period here.
He created a core that remained the core for years and years after he left. Vital to JT and Lampards fantastic careers as well.

 

 

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It's a little disheartening to see people start to doubt or even diminish the influence he had on our club. I've noticed this sort of revisionism creeping in over the last few years. 

He's been through a torrid few years as manager and he's not the same manager/person as he was then, but it shouldn't be understated that he was an exceptional manager for us.

Before Jose arrived in 2004, we were largely known as perennial runner ups. We always gave a strong account of ourselves every season, but we lacked that killer instinct to go all the way in key competitions such as the PL and CL. 

While I liked Ranieri, his managerial period was summed up with the lack of trophies at the end of it despite various opportunities to pick up silverware along the way.

Jose took us to the next level and made us world beaters for several years. He instilled self belief into a team and improved most of our playing squad when he was there. He was tactically ahead of the game and arguably the best manager in the world at the time. 

I acknowledge the foundations were there for him to succeed, but I think most optimists didn't envisage it would go as well as it did when he first arrived.

Guys such as Lampard still hold him in the highest regard. He's been quoted as saying he was the best manager he's ever worked under and Lampard had seen enough managers go around at the club to give a strong opinion on the topic of managers.

His second stint isn't spoken of with the same fondness, but I still thought his first two years were very good and better than anything he produced at Manchester United. It just went rapidly downhill in the final few months which overshadows his earlier achievements in his second stint.

I think his achievements at Porto and Inter Milan cement his legacy as one of the greats regardless of what you think of him. 

His decline started around mid-2012 in his final season at Real Madrid, but he was still a very competent manager from 2012-2014. His decline since 2015 has been much more alarming in my opinion.

Edited by Jezz

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1 hour ago, jack_super_class said:

I reckon Inter Milan but he should take a break from football first.

Inter's a real possibility. He's still held in high regard over there.

Though, I think he should take a proper long-term break which he's lacked in the last 20 years. He should have taken a break after his departure with us but he rushed himself into the Manchester United job determined to atone for his shortcomings in his final season with us. It would have made sense for him to take a break then as his father was gravely ill and subsequently passed away in 2017.

If I was him, I'd take an 18 month break to spend proper time with family, to enjoy life, to study and observe the way the game is changing tactically without the added pressure of being a manager somewhere, to evaluate and reassess his philosophies in dealing with modern day players and to recharge the batteries mentally so he can be ready for the new decade.

I don't think the game has seen the last of him if he gets himself in order.

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The Super Happy one rebranded after a year or two's rest.

Can you imagine he came back all refreshed and had the charisma back and took the league by storm again... never gonna happen, but God that would be funny. 

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15 hours ago, coco said:

Did we win the league in 2005 because of Jose, or despite him ? Looking at the players/staff we had already in place, Terry and Lampard, plus Steve Clarke continuing the good work Claudio put into the club. The more you look at it the more you think we would of won the league anyway.

Sorry but that’s nonsense imo 

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15 hours ago, Stim said:

Let's not go too far, he clearly had a huge influence on those players even well beyond his departure.

Defenitely, he made them all believe that they were great, he gave them confidence. Without Mourinho's influence, they could have all gone on to be nearly men, just like Tottenham's lot has been up to this point in their careers.

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Article in the Times with text I stole from Reddit:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jos-mourinho-the-inside-story-of-how-it-fell-apart-cpcplt6wp

José Mourinho: The inside story of how it fell apart There were no tears or speeches for disliked manager, who appalled club hierarchy by wearing hoodie to Munich disaster memorial, writes Paul Hirst

Mourinho wanted Woodward to “shut down” Pogba’s agent, who he feared was trying to secure him a move away from the club Mourinho wanted Woodward to “shut down” Pogba’s agent, who he feared was trying to secure him a move from the club

He had been expecting to take training at Carrington, but instead José Mourinho was sitting alone at a table in the restaurant at the Lowry Hotel at 2pm yesterday afternoon.

Wearing cream chinos and a black jacket, the sacked 55-year-old sipped a cup of tea while looking out of the window. Behind him stood a grand piano, but alas Alexis Sánchez was not there to tinkle the ivories for his manager before he checked out of the hotel that he has called home for the past two-and-a-half years.

After a while Ricardo Formosinho joined Mourinho at the table, but his former boss barely spoke to him. Instead, Mourinho’s erstwhile assistant coach just sat as his compatriot’s phone pinged incessantly. According to those present, Mourinho fielded call after call, then he was replying to WhatsApp messages from those comforting him after his sacking.

After the pair had finished eating, staff members approached Mourinho to wish him all the best. They had got to know him since he moved in.

Five hours before eating, Mourinho had learnt his fate. Ed Woodward, who spoke to players on Monday, delivered the coup de grâce at Carrington shortly after 9am. The players found out when the club issued a statement at 9.48. According to those in the dressing room, no tears were shed. You could count the number of United players who like Mourinho on one hand. Nemanja Matic, Romelu Lukaku, Ashley Young and Marouane Fellaini were fans, but the others? Forget it. David Moyes and Louis van Gaal addressed the squad on their final days as United boss. That was not the case with Mourinho. A few went up to see Mourinho in his office, but that was it.

The United manager was not a popular man at Carrington. In text exchanges, some players often used four-letter words to describe him. When asked to describe Mourinho in a few words, one representative of a player said he was “a bit of a t***”.

The first signs of Mourinho’s impending departure came on Sunday evening. Shortly after United’s woeful 3-1 capitulation against Liverpool, Woodward, David Gill and Sir Alex Ferguson — among others — congregated in a circle in the directors’ lounge at Anfield. They did not mix with their opposite numbers. To those present in the room, it looked like they were discussing Mourinho’s departure.

In some ways, Mourinho and United seemed the perfect match when they joined forces in the summer of 2016. Here was a born winner, a blockbuster name for a blockbuster club. Just 18 months earlier, he had won the Premier League with Chelsea.

But in many other respects, he was such a bad fit for United. Mourinho, as we all know, is a stubborn character. If he wants something done, he will do it his way, with little thought given to the opinions of others.

When Mourinho turned up to the 60th anniversary memorial of the Munich air disaster wearing dark trainers with a garish white trim on them, and a hoodie under his club suit, some senior figures were appalled. Nobody had the gumption to tell him to put on a pair of smart shoes and ditch the hoodie, though. This was Mourinho. He did what he wanted. When he wanted his son, José Mario Mourinho Jr, to sit with him on the bench for the match against Swansea City in April, he made it happen, even though it bemused long-serving members of staff. “What is he doing here?” one asked.

Mourinho’s first year passed off without major incident. He won two trophies, including the Europa League for the first time.

In the summer of 2017 there was a little annoyance from Mourinho towards Woodward when he refused to pay the £45 million asking price for Ivan Perisic, the Inter Milan winger, but overall his second season went smoothly. Finishing in second place to Pep Guardiola’s Manchester City was not such a bad achievement.

The cracks in Mourinho’s relationship with the board began to appear in this summer.

Mourinho did not look crestfallen when he walked out of Wembley after the FA Cup final defeat by Chelsea in May. When one board member was asked how he felt, he replied: “Rubbish after watching that”.

Then the gloves came off on United’s pre-season tour of the US this summer. Mourinho started off by shaking the hand of every English reporter at the JD Morgan Center at UCLA before his first press conference, but that is where the bonhomie stopped. By the end of the tour, Mourinho was sitting in reception at the St Regis Bal Harbour hotel, Miami, shouting: “This is sh*t, this is sh*t”, down the phone.

The atmosphere between Woodward and Mourinho had become toxic by that point. On a personal level, Mourinho likes Woodward. The two enjoy joking and have meals together, but professionally Mourinho does not rate his old boss, particularly when it comes to his dealings in the transfer market.

In the summer Mourinho was annoyed that Woodward had failed to sign a centre back. Woodward pointed out that he already had signed two in two years at a cost of more than £60 million.

By July, the battle lines had been drawn. There were two sides briefing against each other inside one club. That does not make for a harmonious relationship. When Team Woodward briefed that they were confident that Anthony Martial would sign a new contract, Mourinho countered, letting it be known that he was willing to let the Frenchman go. When Mourinho complained that he needed a centre half to avoid a catastrophic season, Woodward briefed that nobody was available at the right price.

Senior sources confirmed there was a schism between the two when it came to their respective approaches in the transfer market. Woodward vetoed the signings of the 29-year-olds Jérôme Boateng and Toby Alderweireld.

When the season began, Mourinho tried to emphasise his point further by playing Ander Herrera at centre back against Tottenham Hotspur.

Mourinho’s relationship with Paul Pogba then began to deteriorate. Mourinho blamed the player’s agent, Mino Raiola, for trying to engineer a move for his client. Mourinho told friends that Woodward should “shut Raiola down” and never conduct deals with him again. “Ed really did get in too deep with the devil when he started working with Raiola,” a source close to Mourinho said.

By the end of September, shortly after the defeat by West Ham United, the atmosphere within the dressing room had hit an all-time low. “Nobody is taking responsibility,” one player confided in a friend.

Woodward took note of the players’ anger towards Mourinho and he came close to sacking him in October, but thought again. Still, Mourinho’s long-term future was by no means assured. One sponsor asked last month if Mourinho could appear in a promotional video, but the club said no.

When Mourinho claimed in an interview aired last month that four of his young stars, Jesse Lingard, Marcus Rashford, Martial and Luke Shaw lacked the “character” and “personality” to compete, Woodward was dismayed. “We would have rather he didn’t mention any names,” one senior source said.

By that point, Mourinho’s constant calling out of his players had begun to grate on the board. The next manager will need to “build a positive atmosphere” and “create a united dressing room” one source said yesterday.

The style of play under Mourinho, described as “boring” by one senior figure, also led to the decision to sack the Portuguese. Another was keen to point out that Mourinho had spent almost £400 million on 11 signings during his tenure, which suggests that he was backed sufficiently.

It can be revealed that close friends advised Mourinho against taking the job in 2016 because they were afraid that certain aspects of the club had not been modernised since Ferguson’s departure. Mourinho hated the scouting structure. He felt it was too bloated. Why did none of United’s 50-plus scouts spot Harry Maguire’s potential when he was at Hull City, he complained.

Mourinho also did not get on with some members of the medical department. They were affronted by Mourinho’s decision to communicate via email. Some senior members of United’s medical staff have not spoken to Mourinho face to face in 18 months.

Mourinho was also dismayed at the lack of protection he felt he was receiving from the club’s communications department. When former managers and former players rounded on him, Mourinho felt United should have shot down their claims and backed him publicly. “The lack of communications is the thing that José remembers the most about United,” one source said. “He was left to be vilified.”

Mourinho’s mistrust of the class of ’92 stretches back to when he took the job. Woodward was keen to keep Ryan Giggs on, but Mourinho vetoed the idea because he did not think the Welshman was a man he could trust because of his extra-marital affair with his brother’s wife.

By the end of last week, the United board had had enough of Mourinho’s complaints. They felt that Mourinho was quick to blame others for United’s woes, rather than himself. The Lowry Hotel accountants will miss Mourinho, but United’s board will certainly not.

Edited by Stim

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Footy 365 have an article claiming similar things, the one big difference they claim someone on the staff was leaking team selections on social media.

This really annoyed Mourinho according to the article especially when his planned three up front to face City was leaked.

Difficult for us to tell what was going on though I recall a stink with Van Gaal being advised he was no longer going to be their manager before the FA Cup final which was generally considered to be lacking class.

 

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22 hours ago, Jezz said:

It's a little disheartening to see people start to doubt or even diminish the influence he had on our club. I've noticed this sort of revisionism creeping in over the last few years. 

He's been through a torrid few years as manager and he's not the same manager/person as he was then, but it shouldn't be understated that he was an exceptional manager for us.

Before Jose arrived in 2004, we were largely known as perennial runner ups. We always gave a strong account of ourselves every season, but we lacked that killer instinct to go all the way in key competitions such as the PL and CL. 

 While I liked Ranieri, his managerial period was summed up with the lack of trophies at the end of it despite various opportunities to pick up silverware along the way.

Jose took us to the next level and made us world beaters for several years. He instilled self belief into a team and improved most of our playing squad when he was there. He was tactically ahead of the game and arguably the best manager in the world at the time. 

I acknowledge the foundations were there for him to succeed, but I think most optimists didn't envisage it would go as well as it did when he first arrived.

Guys such as Lampard still hold him in the highest regard. He's been quoted as saying he was the best manager he's ever worked under and Lampard had seen enough managers go around at the club to give a strong opinion on the topic of managers.

His second stint isn't spoken of with the same fondness, but I still thought his first two years were very good and better than anything he produced at Manchester United. It just went rapidly downhill in the final few months which overshadows his earlier achievements in his second stint.

I think his achievements at Porto and Inter Milan cement his legacy as one of the greats regardless of what you think of him. 

His decline started around mid-2012 in his final season at Real Madrid, but he was still a very competent manager from 2012-2014. His decline since 2015 has been much more alarming in my opinion.

I think your view has gone too far the other way. 

There was ONE season before Jose came in. Yes Jose took us to the next level, but the phrase perennial runners up is mad. We scraped 4th 2 years earlier with a squad almost unrecognisable to what Jose had when he joined. 

Jose took us to the next level, but it wasn't like we'd had managers try and fail or that Ranieri did a bad job. ranieri just wasn't at the level we needed. But I think there were a few managers in the game who could have won us the league back to back (the competition just wasn't there). What he did do was he brought Lampard and Terry into the world class bracket - that was what he did amazingly and something he hasn't recreated since coming back to England. Either with us or with United. 

I also think his second stint is spoken of too highly. We had - in my opinion - a strong enough squad to win the league 3 years in a row and THAT would have placed us in a bracket of the top 5 clubs in Europe and carried our reputation. We/Jose didn't try in the first, we limped over the line in the second with by far the best team in the league and we had a shocker in the third. 

 

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11 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Defenitely, he made them all believe that they were great, he gave them confidence. Without Mourinho's influence, they could have all gone on to be nearly men, just like Tottenham's lot has been up to this point in their careers.

We were going to win the league in 2005 regardless. The investment in the squad in comparison to the rest of the league has no comparison in English football history. 

Jose did great in building Lampard up, but there is no chance that we could have been a Tottenham. More likely is that Lampard would have been shipped out. I think Terry would have made himself great.

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I don’t buy into the notion either that Mourinho made JT and Lamps great. They had strong enough personality’s and  great all round games before he arrived. Perhaps he  gave them more maturity but that develops year on year anyway in most cases.

Under Mourinho JT did cut out his raking long passes I remember. Not sure why because more often than not they were accurate.

Edited by Ewell CFC

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I think Mourinho made getting the ball to Lampard on the counter the aim of the defence.

The JT pass thing may have been because JM felt he was susceptible to losing possession as he looked for the pass especially against teams with a high press.

JT had a very able deputy in Cavalho who possessed the dark art of being able to foul without getting many cards.

 

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You ask the players from back then and they say Jose brought the winning mentality to the club and instilled it in them. Whether he’s been a w**ker since he left or not is irrelevant, the people who where there at the time working under him are the ones saying it.   

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We would have won the league without Mourinho anyway :laugh2: what a load of sh*t. People really think other managers would have got highest points total and fewest goals in a season conceded as well as other records at that time. Mourinho made that team into a beast and and one of the best premiership sides ever, he made players into leaders and that's why even with all the manager merry go round after his sacking the squad could still do good things. Whatever you think of Mourinho now let's not try and take away how great he was for Chelsea.

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