41 minutes ago, Jangz said:

he record in the league has been pretty average.. Yes he has done well in cup competitions.. but over a long season you need more-

1) if it is such a great formation no other top team in europe deploys it?

2) We dont have great wingback options as cover, if the idea is to have your best 11 on the pitch on most nights  Alonso and Azpi shouldnt be a part of it

3) The back 3 encourages our the least adept passers in the team to kick start an attack 

yes sometimes the fans have a valid POV too.

During his 'average' record in the league prior to coming here he almost exclusively used a back 4. PSG and Dortmund both primarily played 4-3-3

Want to see him try Ampadu in the pivot next. 

19 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Want to see him try Ampadu in the pivot next. 

So you would like to see something like.

 

Mendy

 

James

Silva

Koulibaly 

Chilwell

 

Jorginho 

Ampadu

 

Mount

Gallagher

Sterling

 

Havertz ?

7 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

 

One or the other, not together. (Ampadu + Jorginho)

Ampadu + Gallagher pivot. 

3 hours ago, RMH said:

I forgot to mention that I agree that we missed the wingbacks, but I also think that we struggled in many games against mid and low table teams that set up defensively. It showed our lack of creativity in midfield, which I think now will be fine with Gallagher, and we could not overload their box with attacking players as we lacked them. Someone showed a while ago a comparison between City’s and our playing style, and a massive difference was how City players get into the box while we just sit around it. That, I think, it’s down to Tuchel defensively minded style and needs to change, and a good start would be a back 4.

While i do also want us to go back to a back 4 (especially if we get both Kounde and Koulibaly) i don't think the 3 is as restrictive as made out. In Tuchel's first half season bar that freak exception vs WBA we were controlling games better than we have been since Mou 1.0 and with Reece/Chilwell granted the freedom to roam from wingback we played some absolutely scintillating stuff last season before the latters injury (and you know who's return) putting an end to it.

3 hours ago, weetee said:

Not sure what to say, we don't disagree here but as I said, City have a real DM - in fact the best in the world - even with like to like back-ups while we have none.  The are also incredibly secure with the ball up front: Foden, Silva (the other Silva while he was still playing there), Mahrez, Jesus, Sterling, Gündogan, KdB (who's their most risky player) while also being able to play extremely precise. Of course you can play more risky if that's balanced by the pure talent and potential of your attacking players. Pulisic, Werner (lol) Lukaku, are not really that comfortable with the ball or plainly lose it too easily. I would have to see what CHO offers with little space (which you would automaticly have in City's system) to assess him but I dout he's anywhere near the level every single City attacker is on.

So you can't talk about sheer numbers without looking how that is counterbalanced by having top CBs (there is no 37 Thiago playing in such a system), a wc #6 and comfortably the best attacking players on tight spaces.

 

edit: luckily Pep decided to play without a real DM in the CL final because that was a deal-breaker and they could shove players into the box as they liked: we were still far more threatening and in control of the game.

Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely understand what you’re saying and partly agree with it. But I just want Tuchel to be a bit more experimental, less defensive, and overall not pay a fortune to watch a dross defensive game (and I think I speak for, at least, all my match going friends). And I think that he’s got the players to, at least, try it in friendlies, cups and lower table teams. My thought was triggered by last night’s friendly, where he could have been more adventurous.

46 minutes ago, Argo said:

While i do also want us to go back to a back 4 (especially if we get both Kounde and Koulibaly) i don't think the 3 is as restrictive as made out. In Tuchel's first half season bar that freak exception vs WBA we were controlling games better than we have been since Mou 1.0 and with Reece/Chilwell granted the freedom to roam from wingback we played some absolutely scintillating stuff last season before the latters injury (and you know who's return) putting an end to it.

I agree with you that, at times, Tuchel’s system is quite attacking. However, and as you mention his first season, we endured some defensive sh*t like Leeds or Wolves (was that his first game?). We all gave it to him that he was getting to grips with the team,and ok, I still give it to him that he’s got us playing good football in the cups. And, while I agree that when we had both first choice wingbacks healthy in the first part of the season we played very good football, we can’t deny that still we heavily depend on those two particular players and we hardly have any soul inside the box attacking anything. We just don’t attack low block teams inside the box, we need to change the defensive mode to an attacking mode, play one more attacking player and, with Gallagher coming back and Sterling in the team, have more creativity around and inside the box.

5 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

One or the other, not together. (Ampadu + Jorginho)

Ampadu + Gallagher pivot. 

Gallagher as one of the two 6s? Not sure he has the defensive game for that position. Kova and Mount don't imo, Kante would probably be best there.

The only thing I was disappointed about with the first friendly was that Tuchel hasn't already started the transition to a back 4, and I am already starting to doubt that it will happen at all.

I understand why he does it, he wants to protect the CB's and give James and Chilwell freedom to attack without worrying too much about their defence duties. If we change and play a 4 man defence, we risk leaving them exposed. Jorginho isn't your old fashioned DM, has no pace and has no strength, so he's easy to bypass with a back 4 formation. Kante has a lot of traits needed in a DM, but he's a roaming all action midfielder, you can't ask him to be a player that holds his position and protect the CB's.

It's frustrating because we have so many attackers being held back. We currently have 4 wingers at the club, and the 3 that we had here last season were often used as wing backs. We have also added Gallagher to the squad and are constantly forcing Mount to play on the wing / inside foward. Havertz also suffers because it's gotten to the point where he plays as a false 9 or he doesn't play at all. 

Our attacking game is blunt and that extra man in the oppositions half could make all of the difference. Do we really want to see Koulibably doing a Rudiger all season and have him charging out of defence and launching a desperate 35 yard strike at goal multiple time a game?

 

Simple, Get a new manager🤣🤣🤣

On 17/07/2022 at 00:36, axman2526 said:

I really hope this season TT rebuilds fortress Stamford Bridge.

Used to be sides like Brentford, Bouremouth, Wolves, Everton etc woild come to the Bridge knowing they were beat before a ball was kicked, and us going in front just confirmed it for them.

More recently though it does not matter how sh*t you are we will encourage you over and over again.

Far from being a side no one wants to play, no body comes to the bridge in fear anymore. That needs to change.

Agree with this. I think the big issue these days is we go 1-0 up and don't look to kill games off, and that has been a problem since Conte's second season. Liverpool and City will go 1-0 up in games like that and you'd expect them to kick on and get 4 or 5 usually. 

9 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Havertz also suffers because it's gotten to the point where he plays as a false 9 or he doesn't play at all. 

Where would you have played Havertz in a 4-3-3 let's say?

 

21 hours ago, ducavis said:

Fans have been banging on about that since the previous preseason but he is too stubborn. Guess if you stick 5 defenders behind the ball, your limitations as a coach won’t be exposed.

This is a bizarre take. We are playing 5 at the back because it suits the players we currently have, namely Thiago Silva and Jorginho. Would it be nice to play with a back 4? Yes, maybe. But Tuchel with this system won us the champions league and we were 2 missed penalties away from the domestic cups last season whilst still finishing third in the most turbulent season in the clubs recent history. Is it possible to play 4 at the back currently? With the players we have and no out and out defensive midfielder, probably not. 

I'd also add that prior to James and Chilwell getting injured last season we were playing some of the best football we have for years, and a lot of that is down to the system. 

I would actually say it highlights Tuchel's skills as a coach that he can identify where his key players have weaknesses and adapts his system to ensure he is still getting the best out of them. 

Some people on here need to be careful what they wish for. TT is as good as it's going to get for us and is the only manager who is anywhere close to Pep or Klopp, the alternative is someone like Pochettino who yes might play 4 at the back but I am 100% certain he will take us further away from City and Liverpool, rather than closer to them.  

29 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Where would you have played Havertz in a 4-3-3 let's say?

 

As a 9.

More youth players being unused and sold by Tuchel, as I said ages ago, he has no interest in helping young players progress and get into the team, just wants to fill the squad with overseas, high cost players. We should just be happy Mount and James were first teamers by the time he got here, otherwise they would be at other teams by now.

8 minutes ago, dkw said:

More youth players being unused and sold by Tuchel, as I said ages ago, he has no interest in helping young players progress and get into the team, just wants to fill the squad with overseas, high cost players. We should just be happy Mount and James were first teamers by the time he got here, otherwise they would be at other teams by now.

At an absolute minimum 2 in as many summers have been promoted, neither are as good as James and Mount and one of them weren't good enough in the eyes in the fans either.

It's always a lose-lose with any manager. 

You can't just put every academy boy into the first team and expect the team to challenge for top spots every season. 

People can point to Lampard giving chances to Mount, James, Abraham and Tomori but the very same people were also willing to sack him during the slump. 

I wasn't a big fan of Tuchel in the beginning but he at least has proven himself to have the nous to navigate the team during a terrible period for CFC. I'd give him at least 2 more years and see where we are after the end of the next season. 

14 minutes ago, dkw said:

More youth players being unused and sold by Tuchel, as I said ages ago, he has no interest in helping young players progress and get into the team, just wants to fill the squad with overseas, high cost players. We should just be happy Mount and James were first teamers by the time he got here, otherwise they would be at other teams by now.

We are just going to ignore Gallagher are we?

Not our fault these youngsters are demanding to be starters when they are teenagers. That is never going to happen at this club. Gallagher, Mount, James and Chalobah is proof of the fact there is a real pathway to the first team for our youngsters. Perform when you are out on loan and they show the right attitude when you return and you will have your chance.

And yes, two of those have got their chance under Tuchel so it's a crap argument.

Edited July 18, 20224 yr by Sindre

20 minutes ago, dkw said:

More youth players being unused and sold by Tuchel, as I said ages ago, he has no interest in helping young players progress and get into the team, just wants to fill the squad with overseas, high cost players. We should just be happy Mount and James were first teamers by the time he got here, otherwise they would be at other teams by now.

He integrated Chalobah last season and looks like will be integrating Gallagher this season. We are never going to have a situation again like we did under Lamps where we can afford to integrate 5 or 6 youth players because of the transfer ban and the lower expectations that were there that season. I do wish the club hadn't sold Abraham and Tomori as I do think they are 2 players who could have a decent role in the squad - but they had the oppurtunity to go and be key players elsewhere so you can see why they were keen to go. 

Broja is leaving for around £30m off the back of a 6 goal season. If we signed a striker from Southampton who was coming off the back of a 6 goal season, we would all be underwhelmed and question what the club are doing. 

For context, Pep has only really integrated Foden into his squad and made him a key player. Klopp has only really done it with Harvey Elliott and Curtis Jones and Trent. Only Trent of those is a key player. Tuchel, Pep and Klopp haven't got the time to integrate a whole load of youth players at once while they are all expected to compete regularly for trophies. In many instances it is the 'safer option' to go for a signing with proven qualities, rather than promoting from within. 

I would add that Mount and James were good before Tuchel, but have both kicked onto another level under his management/ coaching.  

I think we need to temper our expectations a bit, not every youth prospect who comes through is going to be good enough to be a regular player for us. If we can get fees of £30m+ for those types of player then it makes the academy worth its weight in gold. 

Edited July 18, 20224 yr by drjonesy1994
Missed out a player in Liverpool comparison

1 minute ago, Deino said:

It's always a lose-lose with any manager. 

You can't just put every academy boy into the first team and expect the team to challenge for top spots every season. 

People can point to Lampard giving chances to Mount, James, Abraham and Tomori but the very same people were also willing to sack him during the slump. 

I wasn't a big fan of Tuchel in the beginning but he at least has proven himself to have the nous to navigate the team during a terrible period for CFC. I'd give him at least 2 more years and see where we are after the end of the next season. 

Lampard totally ignored Tomori for a year, refused to start Callum when we had no other fit wingers and remember the time he subbed off James, Mount and Gilmour (two of them now completely untouchable to Tuchel) vs Leicester at half time? I dread to think the amount of abuse Tuchel would have got for all of that.

I mean don't get me wrong Lampard's youth policy was overall great despite that and I won't be happy if Colwill goes but if his decisions regarding youth players were micro analysed to the same degree he'd have been slated very regularly too.

13 minutes ago, Argo said:

Lampard totally ignored Tomori for a year, refused to start Callum when we had no other fit wingers and remember the time he subbed off James, Mount and Gilmour (two of them now completely untouchable to Tuchel) vs Leicester at half time? I dread to think the amount of abuse Tuchel would have got for all of that.

I mean don't get me wrong Lampard's youth policy was overall great despite that and I won't be happy if Colwill goes but if his decisions regarding youth players were micro analysed to the same degree he'd have been slated very regularly too.

Agreed. We can't expect to have a Class of 92 situation every year. 

That's why the Class of 92 was so special. I think the promotion of 1 or 2 youth players per season of the required standard is good enough, 3 would be brilliant but it's very hard unless you have a legit superstar in the team to carry the team during the difficult moments. 

Only reason players like Ashley Cole/Fabregas/Messi/Ronaldo was able to flourish is because they have Ronaldinho/Xavi/Iniesta/Henry/Giggs/Vieira/Keane etc2 to carry their weight in the inconsistent youth moments. 

Youth integration is always one of the hardest job for the clubs at the highest level

Edited July 18, 20224 yr by Deino

I don't mind seeing Broja leave this summer, though wouldn't mind a buyback clause. He's shown a lot of promise, but at this point lacks the link-up play and vision to make any productive impact in our system. Tammy and Lukaku have proven that this style is not the solution. 

What we truly need is for Kai, Timo, Pulisic and Ziyech to step up their game. They've got what it takes and have shown glimpes of it, but clearly haven't fulfilled their potential at this point, and I believe there are a few reasons for that. The long lack of supply from Chilwell and James, being deployed out of position as WBs themselves, having to play around the sore thumb Lukaku for large parts of the season, the sanction fiasco, and most importantly their personal lack of consistency and determination. 

I don't think we should add further attackers but rather create the right conditions for these players to show if they have it in them. Getting rid of Lukaku was the first step, 5 subs could be another massive gain but the biggest problem is yet to be resolved - the WB positions. Sterling and Koulibaly were crucial deals, another CB is clearly needed, but after that our sole focus should be devoted to making sure we have 2 top WBs to compete with Reece and Chilly. I say we should sell Broja, sell CHO, sell Rüdiger and Azpi, buy someone like Hakimi or Livramento for RWB and, unless Emerson proves he means serious business, a similarly useful LWB. 

--------Sterling(Pulisic)-----Havertz(Werner)--------Mount(Ziyech)----------

Chilwell(XXX)--Kovacic(Jorginho)--Kanté(Gallagher/RLC)-James(Livramento)

---------Koulibaly(Colwill)-------Silva-------------Koundé(Chalobah)---------

------------------------------Mendy(Kepa)--------------------------------------

I'd be very happy with that squad. 

How many youth players do you realistically expect to be integrated into the first team?

We have: James, Chalobah, Mount, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi.

And it looks like Gallagher this season will be included.

 

It's like some of you expect 11 academy products to start every game. Look at the other teams in the top 6, how many of their academy players do they have in their 1st team squad? Probably fewer than us.

 

If the player is good enough and has the right mentality, they will get a chance. If they aren't, or they want everything handed to them too quickly, they won;t.

 

On 17/07/2022 at 19:47, Drogba1 said:

During his 'average' record in the league prior to coming here he almost exclusively used a back 4. PSG and Dortmund both primarily played 4-3-3

I am talking about his Chelsea record being average.

1 hour ago, Zeta said:

How many youth players do you realistically expect to be integrated into the first team?

We have: James, Chalobah, Mount, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi.

And it looks like Gallagher this season will be included.

 

It's like some of you expect 11 academy products to start every game. Look at the other teams in the top 6, how many of their academy players do they have in their 1st team squad? Probably fewer than us.

 

If the player is good enough and has the right mentality, they will get a chance. If they aren't, or they want everything handed to them too quickly, they won;t.

 

In a couple of seasons RLC, CHO, Chalobah may not be here..

Colwill looks much more promising in the long run.