8 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

I agree.  I wouldn't consider buying Maguire.

But the rumour is a swap for Pulisic.

And between the 2 of them Maguire is only one with some actual strengths that could benefit the team even if he's got a number of weaknesses.

You can bring him on late to defend a set piece help shut down a game.  As opposed to all our attacking play shutting down naturally when Pulisic comes on.

And I have a very hard time seeing any of our current centre backs aside from Koulibaly performing in a back 4.

People actually say they want to see a back 4 instead of the 5 but never which of our centre backs they think could actually perform in a 4.

 

If you hate Pulisic that much, just send him back to the USA where he can play in the American soccer league. I am sure one of the clubs over there would love to take him on loan, or permanently given a fair price.

But bringing in Maguire, now you're seriously asking for trouble. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Its one thing not having a prolific scorer like Costa at his best. Certainly we haven't had any striker near that since. But even since then we had players like Tammy, Giroud, etc. who were able to weigh in with some goals when they played regularly, even if they weren't regarded as the long term solution. But after Lukaku made a promising start last season our goals have really started to dry up from forwards until Tuchel. We are now almost increasingly reliant on goals from defence, and midfield. I think we are in for some struggles this season unless that changes.

Have you watched city play last season? That is kinda how we play. I wrote a thread analyzing our offense, it wasn't a good analysis but it will give you a basic idea of how we play and why we struggle to attack. 

 

10 hours ago, STATS said:

The talent is there. Tuchel just isn't getting the best out of them. Look how fluid Leeds looked in attack without their main man. Harrison looked brilliant. Arnason looked brilliant. There is no reason we should not be running rings around a defence that is known for conceding goals. It is damn worrying.

 

Exactly!

If Marsch was able to get 3 goals from the talents he has at his disposal, then surely Tuchel should be able to get at least 3/4 goals from his roster.

Or would you argue that Leeds has better talents?

Remember, a good coach will make average players look great; and a poor coach will make great players look average. Go back and look at what Klopp made with all those players at BVB under his watch.

 

10 hours ago, azpi28 said:

It’s the mentality of the team that’s the problem. They weren’t up for it today. They didn’t work hard enough. They didn’t match Leeds’ intensity. They gave up trying after the 2-0. 

 

And where would you point your finger for that?

The coach/manager, or the 20 players on the roster?

11 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

Given we have a single attacking player signed by Tuchel in our squad and he looks head and shoulders above the rest of our attackers I think we could risk making another one.

The 2 Centre back options simply replace the 2 players Marina lost on frees due to her incompetence, Cucurella being an upgrade at LWB is a bonus but it isn't like we've handed him a much stronger squad. 

We didn't offer £60m for Raphina and play attacking midfielders on the wings because our squad is just full of quality wingers.

 

 

Head and shoulders above? How many goals have Sterling scored in a Chelsea jersey? LMAO

Come back to me at the end of the season.

11 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

City and Liverpool also have much more talented attacking players than we do.

Guardiola has literally never coached an attacking player as bad as Pulisic or Ziyech in his entire career.

The managers job is to get the most out of the talent he has, I'd argue Tuchel has done that with our results but the talent actually has to be there to challenge for the title and I don't think it is.

 

Maybe if these guys were coached by Pep, they could be world class? 

Remember, Salah was an outcast and thrown away by Chelsea. He is what he is today under Klopp.

I say Marsch did a much better job of getting the best out of his limited resources today. Can't say the same for Tuchel.

10 hours ago, Ballack & Blu said:

I'm just waiting for the inevitable snowball effect of Tuchel out,
Ok, i'l play devils advocate, who do we get, that can get a tune out of us, and play reasonably unrestricted football
Brentfords manager excites me....
 

 

Might as well throw Newcastle and Leeds managers in there, while you're at it.

1 hour ago, forbzy said:

Its one thing not having a prolific scorer like Costa at his best. Certainly we haven't had any striker near that since. But even since then we had players like Tammy, Giroud, etc. who were able to weigh in with some goals when they played regularly, even if they weren't regarded as the long term solution. But after Lukaku made a promising start last season our goals have really started to dry up from forwards until Tuchel. We are now almost increasingly reliant on goals from defence, and midfield. I think we are in for some struggles this season unless that changes.

Not sure I agree. The idea that goals 'dried up' under Tuchel is becoming a myth at this point IMO. Comparing both Lampard and Tuchel's full seasons, the combined goal tally of all the forwards is roughly the same number 48-49 or so. And even if you compare the forwards individually, they aren't that far off with each forward averaging from 3-9 goals in a season under both managers and only one of them managing to get above 10. Mount with 11 under Tuchel and Tammy with 15 under Lamps. If any thing, the goal tally from forwards has remained the same from the Lampard to Tuchel era. 

Looking even further back our combined goal tally from forwards in the team was even worse where it was at about 45 for both seasons after we won the league. Most of the goals from those seasons were obviously skewed towards Hazard since the team was relying on him. Our title wining season on the other had our forwards at a combined goal tally of almost 60 with almost 40 of those goals coming from Hazard and Costa alone. 

Basically, if you look at the stats, our goals dried up the moment Costa left and the team became heavily reliant on Hazard for goals over the next couple of seasons. When he left, goals became more spread out across forwards under both Lampard and Tuchel. Defenders scoring under Tuchel have rather added to our total amount of goals per season rather than actually replacing the goals of forwards. This goes back to my point that our recruitment ever since Costa left has failed when it came to replacing him with Morata, Werner and Lukaku all being flops that were expected to get at least 20 goals.

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by Frankie8Lampard

29 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

Not sure I agree. The idea that goals 'dried up' under Tuchel is becoming a myth at this point IMO. Comparing both Lampard and Tuchel's full seasons, the combined goal tally of all the forwards is roughly the same number 48-49 or so. And even if you compare the forwards individually, they aren't that far off with each forward averaging from 3-9 goals in a season under both managers and only one of them managing to get above 10. Mount with 11 under Tuchel and Tammy with 15 under Lamps. If any thing, the goal tally from forwards has remained the same from the Lampard to Tuchel era. 

And finally this got Lamps sacked . So if output is similar .. the only reason TT has not been in trouble is the UCL win.

lamps also got top 4 in a season where we lost hazard and had to rely on academy players heavily. TT inherited a team on paper that had the potential to challenge in a couple of years .. but instead we have actually regressed.. apart from Rudiger which player improved under TT??

14 minutes ago, Jangz said:

And finally this got Lamps sacked . So if output is similar .. the only reason TT has not been in trouble is the UCL win.

lamps also got top 4 in a season where we lost hazard and had to rely on academy players heavily. TT inherited a team on paper that had the potential to challenge in a couple of years .. but instead we have actually regressed.. apart from Rudiger which player improved under TT??

I think that's a fair argument against Tuchel. That is, he was brought in to improve the squad but we are generally in the same position we were three seasons ago when lamps got us the 4th spot. The argument against that, of course, would be that Tuchel inherited players he didn't buy so I think this season where he is actually buying players he wants is when he will get assessed. If we don't close the gap between city and liverpool this season or don't get to the the champions league I think that's when there will be question marks on his job.

I think even more annoying than our performance for me was TT coming out and saying we were the better team. 

I doubt one single Chelsea fan believes that and is an insult to us that TT thinks we would believe that.

I mean sure point to how Sterling and RLC missed great chances before they scored, but that in no way means over the 90 we were better.

For those who are already looking for Tommy to be sacked, remember we are under new ownership. Todd probably is more like most of the ownership, they look this as a project.

Had no chance to watch the Leeds game but I feel Tuchel made a mistake in terms of personnel. Jorginho - Gallagher is a midfield duo that is easily run over. Why not put 3 man midfield with Reece at the DM role....

I’m certainly not advocating a change in manager, but you have to admit the guy is slightly delusional, believing we were the better team, not one of our players scored better than a Leeds player, putting it down to a one off, just on the back of the Spuds actual performance.

I think that there is little doubt, that if Roman still owned the Club, TT would have good reason to be very nervous going into the office this morning. This is not just about yesterday's shockingly poor performance. Last week in the first half against Spurs, we were superb, but still failed to get the result and that seems to be the backdrop to both last season and the start of this one. A stubbornly rigid 3-5-2 formation, without the players to make it work is doing TT no favours. But the one inescapable thing missing for me is still a LEADER on the pitch. Yesterday I saw no leadership, no guts, no passion, no mental strength and far too many players picked to play - out of position !!

Some of our best players are included in that, Reece is a wing back or right back, NOT a central defender or defensive midfielder, Sterling as a false 9 when he is at his best playing wide, the list goes on and sorry but that is solely down to Tuchel.

We have spent £170million in the last month, to look even worse than we were before. The CL win in May 2021 and the World Club championship against teams I'd not heard of has sustained TT, but lets be honest, 2 pretty atrocious cup finals and a very poor league campaign is not enough for this Club. A poor campaign this season will probably be the end of him.

I'd just have loved if we had actual fans as part of the press.  Those who get the opportunity to interview him in press conferences and just honestly ask him Thomas what are you doing?  Do you not train attack? Is the best attacker you could earmark for us an ageing Auba? Why do we seem to have this apathy for taking shots at the opposition goal when in their area? Why do we pass from side to side and slowly? Do your mids not have through ball drills? Why don't you try and unleash the strengths of the players instead of suppressing them with your rigid tactics? 

So many questions.  I think he's a good manager but there are aspects of his game that week after week seems like he has no interest in addressing and even though we all can see it, seems he is blind to it. 

4 hours ago, haviet1 said:

 

Exactly!

If Marsch was able to get 3 goals from the talents he has at his disposal, then surely Tuchel should be able to get at least 3/4 goals from his roster.

Or would you argue that Leeds has better talents?

Remember, a good coach will make average players look great; and a poor coach will make great players look average. Go back and look at what Klopp made with all those players at BVB under his watch.

 

But by that we should never have won the Champions league or got to pens in two domestic finals last season. Is that not Tuchel bringing the best out fo the players then? What about being 1-3 down against real Madrid, then going to the Bernabeu and being extremely close to knocking the eventual winners out.

I think it's nonsense that Tuchel cannot bring the best out of the players. He obviously can as he's done it before. We managed to beat Everton at the start of the season, at a ground we haven't won at for a few seasons. We beat Leeds 0-3 last season when they had a better team, so it's not like these players cannot do it.

Sometimes these results happen, it's frustrating but it's what makes this league so unpredictable and why the big teams cannot take their eye off the ball in any game. People look way too much into these games and rarely give the smaller team the credit it deserves.

Marsch and Leeds played their bollocks off yesterday and they happened to beat us, so they should get huge credit. 9 times out of ten I don't think they beat us 0-3, but these results happen. Big teams are arrogant to think that they can just stroll up to these team's grounds and brush them away, but it isn't always the case. 

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by enigma

38 minutes ago, coombsie said:

I think that there is little doubt, that if Roman still owned the Club, TT would have good reason to be very nervous going into the office this morning. This is not just about yesterday's shockingly poor performance. Last week in the first half against Spurs, we were superb, but still failed to get the result and that seems to be the backdrop to both last season and the start of this one. A stubbornly rigid 3-5-2 formation, without the players to make it work is doing TT no favours. But the one inescapable thing missing for me is still a LEADER on the pitch. Yesterday I saw no leadership, no guts, no passion, no mental strength and far too many players picked to play - out of position !!

Some of our best players are included in that, Reece is a wing back or right back, NOT a central defender or defensive midfielder, Sterling as a false 9 when he is at his best playing wide, the list goes on and sorry but that is solely down to Tuchel.

We have spent £170million in the last month, to look even worse than we were before. The CL win in May 2021 and the World Club championship against teams I'd not heard of has sustained TT, but lets be honest, 2 pretty atrocious cup finals and a very poor league campaign is not enough for this Club. A poor campaign this season will probably be the end of him.

He appears to be stubborn in his ways and the CL win has done nothing other than paper over the shambles that lies within.  You can't score unless you have attackers, apart from Sterling we don't have any; you can't score w/o creating- we don't have a creative midfield player and rely solely on the wing backs to create crosses during the game; they get stifled and we'll never score.  TT needs a long hard rethink of how he sets up his players .or he may have plenty of time to sit and reflect while he's looking for another job. 

2 hours ago, axman2526 said:

I think even more annoying than our performance for me was TT coming out and saying we were the better team. 

I doubt one single Chelsea fan believes that and is an insult to us that TT thinks we would believe that.

I mean sure point to how Sterling and RLC missed great chances before they scored, but that in no way means over the 90 we were better.

It's one of two things.  Face saving or he's measuring it against some arbitrary yardstick which explains why he doesn't seem to be able fo figure out that we've honestly been crap for a while. 

I can't understand the one good performance, 2 meh ones, and one terrible performance routine we seem to have gotten into. 

It's so sad that we are talking about players like Gordon or Fofana, who need to be improved to get to where we will be challengers when we have players that have regressed from a high level of quality when he came in to now just gradually fading. 

We had a massive improvement in our defence after Lampard, but it now is just looking like we always had the personnel but Lampard being a crap manager (very good player no doubt, but dog sh*t of a manager) couldn't get them to work as a competent manager would.  Even that defence is now causing concerns with how leaky it can be. 

I'm just so disappointed.  We haven't been in a title conversation for years nd don't see that changing anytime soon. 

4 minutes ago, enigma said:

 What about being 1-3 down against real Madrid, then going to the Bernabeu and being extremely close to knocking the eventual winners out.

 

What about the reason we had to go balls out at the Bernabeu, the fact Tuchel sh*t himself and bottled the first leg, playing ultra defensively and meaning we were battered, totally ignoring the last few games Madrid had where teams attacked them and tore them apart with ease.

4 minutes ago, abister1 said:

I'd just have loved if we had actual fans as part of the press.  Those who get the opportunity to interview him in press conferences and just honestly ask him Thomas what are you doing?  Do you not train attack? Is the best attacker you could earmark for us an ageing Auba? Why do we seem to have this apathy for taking shots at the opposition goal when in their area? Why do we pass from side to side and slowly? Do your mids not have through ball drills? Why don't you try and unleash the strengths of the players instead of suppressing them with your rigid tactics? 

So many questions.  I think he's a good manager but there are aspects of his game that week after week seems like he has no interest in addressing and even though we all can see it, seems he is blind to it. 

A good manager would have changed the system and shored up the midfield the moment Gallagher got swamped by 2 and 3 players and the beloved Jorginho was cut through like he wasn't there.  Jose would have either immediately change the game plan or changed the players and not let Leeds overrun the midfield as they did which allowed them to put constant pressure on the CB's.   Mendy's brain fart didn't help but it wasn't the reason it fell apart; it fell apart after about 5 mins.

Love TT to bits but get Fofana in and please try a back 4. Don't care if its a 433 he played at PSG or the 4141 he used to love at Dortmund, just try something new because this clearly isn't working. 

Gotta laugh when people say we need to build a system and keep faith with a manager, but then a season later are doubting him and wanting him gone. Who the hell would we even bring in to do better? We've been through Europes best coaches and none of them have been good enough for this club or our fans, so where do we turn to? We can't keep doing this. 

We are now no better off than when Tuchel came, he has taken us backwards if anything as the football we now play is as bad and ineffective as when Sarri was here, and all because he wants to protect Jorginho, meaning he fits players in wherever he can, out of position and taking away from their best attributes. Playing Reece James at CB is ridiculous, utterly negates one of the best attacking full backs in football, all so he can play his tedious 3 at the back to protect an ineffectual and easily bypassed midfield.

Stop covering weaknesses of Jorginho and play one to the strengths of our best players, James, Mount, Sterling etc...

And does anyone honestly think it will change, we will start with the same formation, pretty much the same players (though I've a feeling Gallagher will be the one to take the blame and be dropped) doing the same things with the same outcome.

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by dkw

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

What about the reason we had to go balls out at the Bernabeu, the fact Tuchel sh*t himself and bottled the first leg, playing ultra defensively and meaning we were battered, totally ignoring the last few games Madrid had where teams attacked them and tore them apart with ease.

I don't think real Madrid have been torn apart,  unless you are talking about Barcelona last season? Looking at their results, even Man City could only beat them 3-4 at the Etihad, then RM beat them 3-1 at the Bernabeu.  People gave us a little chance going to the Bernabeu and that performance was immense from us. Fine margins. 

16 minutes ago, abister1 said:

I'd just have loved if we had actual fans as part of the press.  Those who get the opportunity to interview him in press conferences and just honestly ask him Thomas what are you doing?  Do you not train attack? Is the best attacker you could earmark for us an ageing Auba? Why do we seem to have this apathy for taking shots at the opposition goal when in their area? Why do we pass from side to side and slowly? Do your mids not have through ball drills? Why don't you try and unleash the strengths of the players instead of suppressing them with your rigid tactics? 

So many questions.  I think he's a good manager but there are aspects of his game that week after week seems like he has no interest in addressing and even though we all can see it, seems he is blind to it. 

In the first 30 seconds, Conor played a glorious ball through the lines to Cucu I believe, I thought yes yes yes…..No a very early spring Swallow was the sum of it…..