At this moment, I see 3 votes for sacking him, but no posts as to why. I would like to know the points of view from those forum members too!

21 minutes ago, TheGermanOne said:

Who else should play right back if James and Chalobah are injured ?

I agree totally with Mount, Havertz and Mendy. After these shocking performances against Leeds and Southampton Tuchel should bench all three and bring on at least Kepa und Broja. I think Ziyech was OK yesterday.
And here comes the next problem: Is someone from the bench really better than Havertz or Mount ? Yesterday Pulisic's "performance" was a joke as well.

TT is absolutely right that he was out of options yesterday.

For the defence, James and Chalobah out ill/injured and Alonso unavailable leaves Silva, Koulibaly, Ampadu, Azpilicueta, Chilwell and Cucurella. Only one right back in that lot, so he played him there. That left the centre back options as Silva, Koulibaly, Ampadu. If he played all those as 3ATB then there is no cover on the bench. Cucurella could possibly play LCB in extremis, but we saw in the game yesterday how his lack of height would have been a problem in that position. I think TT chose the best option available. 

In midfield, he could have opted for a midfield two or a midfield three. He had Kante out injured, Gallagher suspended, and Kovacic not fit enough to start. Jorginho fit and available, but options to play alongside him were only Gilmour (couldn't get in the Norwich team last season), Loftus-Cheek (capable occasionally, but surely on borrowed team at CFC), Chukwuemeka (very raw and unproven), and Mount. I think he picked the best three available to play in central midfield. If he'd played Billy alongside Jorginho and Mount, that would have been an extremely lightweight trio. Chukwuemeka has been getting subbed off early in the development team ... he does not look ready for our first team (yet).

In attack, I think he could have started Broja ahead of Havertz, but I can see why he didn't. Sterling is a no brainer for one winger. For the other winger, with Mount selected in midfield and Kenedy presumably in the list for severance pay, it boiled down to a choice of Ziyech or Pulisic, and I think most fans would say he made the right call there 🙂 . The only other forward at the club is Batshuayi. who no manager has thought is the answer during the 5+ years he has been with us.

 

So many interesting thoughts most are as complicated as Tuchel,s tactics   and most make excuses for things we have all been saying for years   i.e  too many manager  change of ownership, covid the list goes on   i find it ironic that alot say are best player is a 38 year old centre back who has no pace and is not great in the air  does that not sum up chelsea  living in the past like   most of our team  Aspi  Silva , Jorginho ,  Kante  .all  require  extra rest days to enable them to play   so why are they  1st choice ? throw in the players that throw themselves to the ground because its easier the fighting for the ball   Pulisic , Havertz , sterling  hakim ziyech   dont hold any hope for this season   not when Tuchel hands in his  Transfer list   look at it is it no wonder are last owners picked the players to sign  does he not have a list of  young up and  coming  players   seems not   but does have a list of players that were at there peek 5 years ago 

I don't think getting rid of him will help.

I think this season has been tough, we needed a rebuild and didn't get one though got defensive replacements and a new option in attack.

That leaves no decent RWB or RB cover and we still are reliant on a limited Jorginho. For me Jorginho works only alongside Kovacic or Kante.

Personally think Reece's sickness gave the advantage to the Saints as we can normally overcome one weakness except against top 4.

Add to the above our lack of clinical finishing at times too.

 

Edited August 31, 20223 yr by strider6004

Of course back him. 100%, but i would like to see a root and branch review of the back room, the staffing, the development plans, the targets and achievements.

Apparently this management team is heavily statistcially oriented and analyse all aspects thoroughly. Yet so many people can see there is a lack of movement, fitness, purpose, energy, creativity. Even TT acknowldges a number of the failings during his pressers.

Granted, professional footballers on £100 a week, let alone hundreds of thousands shoulder the personal responsibility that they are fit and manintain fitness and strength throughout. But still this needs to form part of an overall programme created and developed by the back room coaches. It is telling for me that our only credible performance so far this seaon has been the Spurs game where we swarmed at  them, smothering their play, hunting in packs to retrieve the ball. 

Yes, i have concerns about the trend of playing players in the wrong positons and our impotence in the final third of the pitch is embarrassing but the least we should be doing is presenting a level of hunger and desire as a pack to smother the life out of our opponents, not be schooled by relegation fodder.

Back him, he is the represetation of the project. But if those in his mangement team are not pulling up trees then no sentiment, shuffle your pack TT and shift out those not delivering.

Back Him, But As I Said Before Lampard's Downfall, He Needs To Change, Don't Keep Forcing The Same Players Into Every System, Play Players Who Actually Are Fit For The System.

Be Ruthless Like TT Was When He First Came In, It Feels As If We Are Massively Under Prepared For Each Game, As Others Have Said It's Almost Like The Team Has Never Seen Or Played With Each Other Before.

If This Poor Form Runs Up Until The World Cup Then I'd Sack Him Then

i feel like there is a problem with the uncertainty of the transferwindow still being open and having players involved who are wanting to leave. I would hope to see an improvement in team cohesion once it’s clear what the final team will be. 
 

 

9 minutes ago, strider6004 said:

I don't think getting rid of him will help.

I think this season has been tough, we needed a rebuild and didn't get one though got defensive replacements and a new option in attack.

That leaves no decent RWB or RB cover and we still are reliant on a limited Jorginho. For me Jorginho works only alongside Kovacic or Kante.

Personally think Reece's sickness gave the advantage to the Saints as we can normally overcome one weakness except against top 4.

Add to the above our lack of clinical finishing at times too.

 

On the RWB/RB front though, Djed Spence was available from the first day of the window. We didn't even look. We were interested in Dembele as a free agent that would also cover as a RWB, a position he doesn't play in. He was majorly up for it becuse Barcelona didn't wanthim. Then lo and behold, we got hung out to dry on Dembele, by which time Spence, who fits the subsequent profile from TB/TT during this window perfectly, signed for Spuds. We then end up re-signing Azpi who stayed because we offered him 2 years on more money than Barcelona were offering and immediately we saw what we have all been saying for two years, his legs are shot and he's over the hill.

This was the first tactical error in the transfer market this window, IMO. If we had signed Spence then a number of the supposed targets may well have not materialised ( i read that the Gordon signing and Raphinha were intended to be as RWBs!!)

59 minutes ago, strider6004 said:

I don't think getting rid of him will help.

I think this season has been tough, we needed a rebuild and didn't get one though got defensive replacements and a new option in attack.

That leaves no decent RWB or RB cover and we still are reliant on a limited Jorginho. For me Jorginho works only alongside Kovacic or Kante.

Personally think Reece's sickness gave the advantage to the Saints as we can normally overcome one weakness except against top 4.

Add to the above our lack of clinical finishing at times too.

 

We could use a quality CB but let's not pretend like prior to Leister he didn't have Chalobah sitting there only to shut him out and stifle one of the game's best wingbacks in Reece James by playing him at CB.

 

Not saying there are not challenges but the way Tuchel has responded to those challenges has been at the very least head scratching.

1 hour ago, coco said:

Every manager has a natural end date, the best two managers in the league are more intense than TT, but their players don't stop responding, maybe some of our players just are not up to the job, no matter who you bring in to manage them ?

 

How come they where up to the job a year and a half ago when they won the Champions League?  How come they where up to the job right after that when we routinely destroyed opponents 3 nil or better.

These are good players who have taken on the best in the biggest games and came out on top.  They don't all at once just suddenly stop being competitive against mid tier and bottom of the barrel teams.

If it was one or two players you could put it on the player.  When it's everyone you have to look at the manager.  And that’s not to mention the cast offs that Tuchel barely if ever played and then sold that have suddenly been very successful elsewhere.

I am not saying it makes sense to fire him now but I don't think you can not look at the manager as the problem at this point.  Every player doesn't just suddenly start sucking all at once.

And let's not forget to mention that Tuchel has gotten to spend 300 million quid to make this team his.  A lot of the teams that beat us would kill to be able to spend 100 million in a transfer window.  The first 100 million he blew on Lukaku and couldn't make it work.  And let's not forget that Tammy Abraham is scoring lots of goals in Italy.  So it's not like he hasn't had good strikers available to him, he has just not been able to work with then or refused to play them for whatever reason.

2 hours ago, timetowaste said:

American Sports owners seem to have a lot more patience with their managers, I've seen loads of NFL team managers given an extended period of time when things aren't going well. You've even got to look at people like Arteta, under Roman he'd have been gone a long time ago. Basically I think Tuchel will get the season at least.

That all being said I'm really concerned, I started the season very optimistic but our midfielders keep getting injured with Jorgi the only fit experienced one and he seems to have regressed over the past 12 months which is leaving us exposed in midfield. We really needed to buy a replacement for Jorgi and Kante but we didn't.

We also have forwards who can't score mixed with a couple who don't want to be here. On top of all this the players don't seem to know what they're doing as soon as we go behind which shows a horrible mentality. Fingers crossed we can get Zaha and Auba over the line.

From a tactical point of view Tuchel got next to everything wrong last night. Playing a massively past it Azpi as right back in a back 4 was an appalling decision and I'm not sure how he thought it was a good idea. He keeps playing the same sh*t like Mount, Havertz and Mendy and it's frustrating the bell out of me. I'm still not sure whether it's Tuchel's tactics that are awful at times or if he just doesn't have the players to implement them.

Either way I'll still be fully backing Tuchel but if we don't get at least 2 more attackers before the window our season is f**ked, I'd also like to pull a midfield signing out but I don't see that happening, Tielemans seems available I'd like us to go for him.

American sports don't have relegation and that plays a big part. Coaches are allowed to state they need a rebuild and sometimes that takes many years. Teams can actually get better draft picks if they have an atrocious season. Very different in the Premier League

6 minutes ago, forbzy said:

American sports don't have relegation and that plays a big part. Coaches are allowed to state they need a rebuild and sometimes that takes many years. Teams can actually get better draft picks if they have an atrocious season. Very different in the Premier League

Let's be honest, there is zero risk that we get relegated. The new owners are aware that the team needs a rebuild and the fact that we are signing players that Tuchel specifically wants shows that he is going to be a big part of it, I think it would take a disastrous season for Boehly etc to consider sacking Tuchel

2 hours ago, Valerie said:

A long reply, elaborating on what I've posted in the Sack him or back him thread. Sorry for that @axman2526 and everybody who bothers to read it.

In my view Tuchel must be given more time. Yes, this calender year the results have been unimpressive, and our football generally horrible to watch, but we’ve brought in a few new players that need to settle in. We’ve only played 5 games into the new season, FFS.

As I posted in the Sack him or back him thread, Chelsea have no god given right to win anything, but with the players we have, we should at least see more better football and a fighting spirit. I know f**k all about formations and what is anybody’s best position, but arguably Tuchel does. It makes me wonder what is happening on the coaching front. Does Tuchel have the wrong ideas for good players we have or alternatively the right ideas, but the wrong players? Some may be average where we require top players. 

How stubborn is he exactly, what role do his assistents play? Are they yes-men or are they truly supporting TT’s tactics? If they don’t, do they (dare to0 give contrary advice and TT brushes them aside? And our players: how do they feel about it? Aren’t there any who can take a match by the scruff of its neck and direct it into a winning direction? Being a good footballer obviously doesn’t equal being able to read a game and to think tactically or strategically, or firing up your fellow-players. 

Another thing: we’ve had an endless caroussel of managers in the past 20 years, perhaps even before Roman. All brought in their own players, leaving their successors with different ideas with players they did not acquire. Did we win all those trophies because this caroussel or despite it? 

We last won the league title in 2017, so 5 years ago. Before that it was 2015 (2 years in between), 2010 (5 years in between), 2006 (4 years), 2005 ( back to back) and 1955 (ehhhh…). So not having won the title in 5 years is not uncommon, we’re not the only big club (or Leicester) vying for it. Do we expect to win it in say 2 years? It’s not impossible, but is it probable? Not the way we’re going now, let’s face it. Are we a cup team then, as some posters have said a few times? In the recent past we’ve lost 3 FA Cup finals in a row (once with Lampard, twice with Tuchel), plus 2 League Cup finals (Sarri and Tuchel). Losing 5 domestic cup finals in 4 seasons – with mostly the same players – is f**king awful, even if we did manage to win the Europa League and the Champions League (I’m still wondering how). No, we're not even a cup team in my view, not when you defining it as winning those cups.

I would argue that winning the CL has given us an inflated impression of ourselves. Frankly, we’re not as good as we think we are, as we think we should be, or as we want to be. There is never just one element to blame for this, is a combination of factors. Taking away one of those factors, the manager being the easiest one to boot out, will therefore not solve this. Apart from that: who will take over to magically make us win silverware? In my opinion, only time can do anything to improve us, but coaching staff and players need to pull their socks up and be smarter, be better and toughen the f**k up. 

Sorry for asking more questions than actually coming up with a balanced insight or clever remarks on formation, double-pivots or false 9s....

Also please advise: should I bother with spending my cash to come over for a game?
 

Great post and i particularlry liked this part:

I would argue that winning the CL has given us an inflated impression of ourselves. Frankly, we’re not as good as we think we are, as we think we should be, or as we want to be. There is never just one element to blame for this, is a combination of factors. Taking away one of those factors, the manager being the easiest one to boot out, will therefore not solve this. Apart from that: who will take over to magically make us win silverware? In my opinion, only time can do anything to improve us, but coaching staff and players need to pull their socks up and be smarter, be better and toughen the f**k up. 

2 hours ago, timetowaste said:

American Sports owners seem to have a lot more patience with their managers, I've seen loads of NFL team managers given an extended period of time when things aren't going well. You've even got to look at people like Arteta, under Roman he'd have been gone a long time ago. Basically I think Tuchel will get the season at least.

That all being said I'm really concerned, I started the season very optimistic but our midfielders keep getting injured with Jorgi the only fit experienced one and he seems to have regressed over the past 12 months which is leaving us exposed in midfield. We really needed to buy a replacement for Jorgi and Kante but we didn't.

We also have forwards who can't score mixed with a couple who don't want to be here. On top of all this the players don't seem to know what they're doing as soon as we go behind which shows a horrible mentality. Fingers crossed we can get Zaha and Auba over the line.

From a tactical point of view Tuchel got next to everything wrong last night. Playing a massively past it Azpi as right back in a back 4 was an appalling decision and I'm not sure how he thought it was a good idea. He keeps playing the same sh*t like Mount, Havertz and Mendy and it's frustrating the bell out of me. I'm still not sure whether it's Tuchel's tactics that are awful at times or if he just doesn't have the players to implement them.

Either way I'll still be fully backing Tuchel but if we don't get at least 2 more attackers before the window our season is f**ked, I'd also like to pull a midfield signing out but I don't see that happening, Tielemans seems available I'd like us to go for him.

 

In terms of American coaches it depends on who they are.  However the point I made in the match thread was that a coach that wins a championship is pretty much untouchable for 2 years after winning it.  (If they win 2 or more they are untouchable for like 6 years after winning the 2nd one)  Tuchel did win a championship...

The other thing is that firing a coach mid season in American sports is basically calling the season over.  You get an assistant to take over for the rest of the games and while sometimes the team does better I have never seen a team fire a coach mid season and even make the playoffs.  You can't really hire new coaches mid-season like you can in Europe.

2 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Let's be honest, there is zero risk that we get relegated. The new owners are aware that the team needs a rebuild and the fact that we are signing players that Tuchel specifically wants shows that he is going to be a big part of it, I think it would take a disastrous season for Boehly etc to consider sacking Tuchel

You could be right. Just pointing out the differences. There are many sports franchises in US that do just fine in the box office despite being perennial failures. In those cases the coaches often last several years despite poor performance but the owners know there is little to know impact on the financial side. In the Premier League things tend to move much  more quickly. 

A few months ago we couldn't even be sure if we would still exist as a club, so a couple of bad results don't seem that bad in context. It's been a really weird, tumultuous period for everyone involved with the club that we're only now coming out of, and TT also inherited a bloated squad with many players who shouldn't (or don't want to) be here, or who simply don't fit in the system he wants to play. We haven't even finished our business in the transfer window yet, so let's give him a little patience and the opportunity to get this ship back on course under more stable circumstances.

 

I'm surprised but relieved that the 'sack him' brigade are a small minority.

6 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

Great post and i particularlry liked this part:

I would argue that winning the CL has given us an inflated impression of ourselves. Frankly, we’re not as good as we think we are, as we think we should be, or as we want to be. There is never just one element to blame for this, is a combination of factors. Taking away one of those factors, the manager being the easiest one to boot out, will therefore not solve this. Apart from that: who will take over to magically make us win silverware? In my opinion, only time can do anything to improve us, but coaching staff and players need to pull their socks up and be smarter, be better and toughen the f**k up. 

I disagree, right after that CL win Chelsea was a dominant team and was on top of the EPL for a while.

Not saying that I expect an EPL or Champions league win, but this team easily has the talent to be a top 4 team with no problem and regularly beat teams like Southampton and Leeds. 

Our previous 3 top 4 finishes are no accident.  

2 hours ago, Valerie said:

A long reply, elaborating on what I've posted in the Sack him or back him thread. Sorry for that @axman2526 and everybody who bothers to read it.

In my view Tuchel must be given more time. Yes, this calender year the results have been unimpressive, and our football generally horrible to watch, but we’ve brought in a few new players that need to settle in. We’ve only played 5 games into the new season, FFS.

As I posted in the Sack him or back him thread, Chelsea have no god given right to win anything, but with the players we have, we should at least see more better football and a fighting spirit. I know f**k all about formations and what is anybody’s best position, but arguably Tuchel does. It makes me wonder what is happening on the coaching front. Does Tuchel have the wrong ideas for good players we have or alternatively the right ideas, but the wrong players? Some may be average where we require top players. 

How stubborn is he exactly, what role do his assistents play? Are they yes-men or are they truly supporting TT’s tactics? If they don’t, do they (dare to0 give contrary advice and TT brushes them aside? And our players: how do they feel about it? Aren’t there any who can take a match by the scruff of its neck and direct it into a winning direction? Being a good footballer obviously doesn’t equal being able to read a game and to think tactically or strategically, or firing up your fellow-players. 

Another thing: we’ve had an endless caroussel of managers in the past 20 years, perhaps even before Roman. All brought in their own players, leaving their successors with different ideas with players they did not acquire. Did we win all those trophies because this caroussel or despite it? 

We last won the league title in 2017, so 5 years ago. Before that it was 2015 (2 years in between), 2010 (5 years in between), 2006 (4 years), 2005 ( back to back) and 1955 (ehhhh…). So not having won the title in 5 years is not uncommon, we’re not the only big club (or Leicester) vying for it. Do we expect to win it in say 2 years? It’s not impossible, but is it probable? Not the way we’re going now, let’s face it. Are we a cup team then, as some posters have said a few times? In the recent past we’ve lost 3 FA Cup finals in a row (once with Lampard, twice with Tuchel), plus 2 League Cup finals (Sarri and Tuchel). Losing 5 domestic cup finals in 4 seasons – with mostly the same players – is f**king awful, even if we did manage to win the Europa League and the Champions League (I’m still wondering how). No, we're not even a cup team in my view, not when you defining it as winning those cups.

I would argue that winning the CL has given us an inflated impression of ourselves. Frankly, we’re not as good as we think we are, as we think we should be, or as we want to be. There is never just one element to blame for this, is a combination of factors. Taking away one of those factors, the manager being the easiest one to boot out, will therefore not solve this. Apart from that: who will take over to magically make us win silverware? In my opinion, only time can do anything to improve us, but coaching staff and players need to pull their socks up and be smarter, be better and toughen the f**k up. 

Sorry for asking more questions than actually coming up with a balanced insight or clever remarks on formation, double-pivots or false 9s....

Also please advise: should I bother with spending my cash to come over for a game?
 

I'm clueless on tactics formations, the pivot etc. 

I just want to watch us playing quicker faster football. And more shots on goal than the opposition despite endless possession.

the sweeper I understood though. 

Back in for now and hopefully the new players will gel and this will improve. One thing I was disappointed with, well actually there were quite a few, was the lack of passion from TT on the touch line. For long periods of time he just sat in the dug out. I want a manager barking orders and driving the players on .

Come on TT let's get it right 

2 hours ago, coco said:

And your solution is ?

He needs to change his entire approach to the way we play, the way he uses and handles the squad, instead of having a system of play then fitting players in where he can he needs to review the strengths/weaknesses of the players at his disposal (all of them, not just his favourites) and create a system and style that plays to those strengths/weaknesses. If he doesn't then we continue to lose, continue playing abysmal football and wasting talented players and he will be sacked.

@Valerie Please go to the match. Your funding will be crucial to us getting Gordon in the next window and injecting some much needed happiness into our poor @axman2526's soul as he listens to the Flash Gordon theme. 

 

3 hours ago, Valerie said:

..

Also please advise: should I bother with spending my cash to come over for a game?
 

Win lose or draw there's always a good reason to go to a game. 

As to the rest. I'd give tuchel to Christmas. As much as I've lost faith in his ability to turn it around, there's no manager who I think will come in and have a better chance of getting top 4 whether they come in now instead of Christmas. 

We should be doing better than we are. There's many problems, the major one though is we only have one match winner in the squad - sterling. And the debate for me is whether tuchel is at fault for not turning his signings into successes like KDB, Salah, Mane became, or whether the players we signed just weren't ever going to be good enough. None of those players were better than our crop when they joined their respective clubs, but they became world class. None of our players have kicked on to be at that level other than Reece James. 

18 minutes ago, the real shed end said:

Back in for now and hopefully the new players will gel and this will improve. One thing I was disappointed with, well actually there were quite a few, was the lack of passion from TT on the touch line. For long periods of time he just sat in the dug out. I want a manager barking orders and driving the players on .

Come on TT let's get it right 

Because hes probable so frustrated with players not doing the absolutely basics

2 hours ago, coco said:

Every manager has a natural end date, the best two managers in the league are more intense than TT, but their players don't stop responding, maybe some of our players just are not up to the job, no matter who you bring in to manage them 

I think both points are probably true. This is what bothers me when we talk about pissing away money on useless signings like Gordon. Means we don't have the funds to buy what we actually need. 

7 minutes ago, dkw said:

He needs to change his entire approach to the way we play, the way he uses and handles the squad, instead of having a system of play then fitting players in where he can he needs to review the strengths/weaknesses of the players at his disposal (all of them, not just his favourites) and create a system and style that plays to those strengths/weaknesses. If he doesn't then we continue to lose, continue playing abysmal football and wasting talented players and he will be sacked.

I don't disagree with any of that, where we differ is the length of time we are prepared to give him.

We have been trying to win the league rotating different managers in and out, but we don't get close anymore, the squad is a patchwork of players thrown together due to the constant managerial changes.

I don't think it's unrealistic to blame that short-termism methodology for the situation were currently in.

That means backing Tuchel to build something meaningful.