1 minute ago, axman2526 said:

There are a few of here who I have found to be very level headed, not reactionary and well thought out. I admit I am not so a fair amount of the time so I am genuinely interested in whether they think TT should be sacked, and what he should achieve this season not to be sacked.

 

How can he achieve anything if people want him replaced 5 games into the season?

Top 4 finish should be the bare minimum.

A good Champions League run, maybe an FA Cup.

The minimum he deserves is a few months once the transfer window shuts.

But if it were up to me, I wouldn't even consider a replacement until the end of this season at the earliest.

 

 

1 minute ago, axman2526 said:

Sure thing, I would very much like to be wrong. Just a gut feeling on this. 

That Winter World Cup seems like it will be a huge issue to a lot of sides, us included. 

If we keep playing like this we wont have to worry about any of our players going to the WC, they wont get picked.

@axman2526 Start a poll and ask everyone the question.

Sack or back ??

We aren't match fit. Every game we were running out of gas even before half time ( spurs game the odd exception). That was my fear before this mid week game, and turned out we played good 25 minutes and then collapsed . We can blame Tuchel all we wish, but sacking him now or this season will only make it worse. A new manager will bring another new system, which means players will adapt again, few ins and outs, and we do another reboot after just spent 200M. We had this kind of form slump in the past few seasons too, just have to work harder and get through it.

I didn't see todays game, but am not surprised.  Difficult time ahead, and performance wise always had a feeling this would be a season of two halves (pre and post world cup).  That said, we have some questions/topics to address:

• What players have actually improved under TT?
• I don't believe all the attackers are bad - Havertz, Pulisic, Werner, Mount, Lukaku, Broja, Ziyech - all starved of any real service
• TT's stubbornness is getting the better of him

All that said, lets look objectively. To me, this all started Nov 6 2021 with the 1-1 home draw to Burnley.  Since then our win % is 46%, and we lose 1 in 5.  More damning than that is post April, where our win % is now 40% (2 in 5), yet we lose 33% (1 in 3) - that is not a small sample (15 games).  This is not new, but a bigger pattern we've long been watching.  I agree with @axman2526 that I am not confident TT has the plan or methods to get us out of this rut.

20 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

We aren't match fit. Every game we were running out of gas even before half time ( spurs game the odd exception). That was my fear before this mid week game, and turned out we played good 25 minutes and then collapsed . We can blame Tuchel all we wish, but sacking him now or this season will only make it worse. A new manager will bring another new system, which means players will adapt again, few ins and outs, and we do another reboot after just spent 200M. We had this kind of form slump in the past few seasons too, just have to work harder and get through it.

I noted that also we still look like we are recovering from the stupid trip across the USA. 
players looked like they lacked energy and can’t make simple passes.

Do you know how many misplaced passes I saw  in that game.

As @coco suggested, let's see where the shed enders are feeling about our gaffa right now.

39 minutes ago, Amputechture said:

How can he achieve anything if people want him replaced 5 games into the season?

Top 4 finish should be the bare minimum.

A good Champions League run, maybe an FA Cup.

The minimum he deserves is a few months once the transfer window shuts.

But if it were up to me, I wouldn't even consider a replacement until the end of this season at the earliest.

 

 

I should have mentioned you, you are always a solid and well thought out poster, pretty funny as well.

31 minutes ago, coco said:

@axman2526 Start a poll and ask everyone the question.

Sack or back ??

Your wish, my command. 👍

34 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

There are a few of here who I have found to be very level headed, not reactionary and well thought out. I admit I am not so a fair amount of the time so I am genuinely interested in whether they think TT should be sacked, and what he should achieve this season not to be sacked.

@Mod @Valerie @CaitlinCFC @Munkworth @Scott Harris @just may I ask your opinions on this?

We can all be reactionary, I have been plenty of times. One thing I don't think we should do is sack the manager. He messed up tonight, quite badly in my opinion, but I am tired of this cycle we are in. Tuchel has inherited a chaotic squad at a chaotic club. Sacking him would just add to the chaos, and it's something I really think needs to stop. If he was a bad coach that was completely out of his depth, then maybe I would think differently, but he's not a bad coach, he's a very good one. The club has gone from being on the brink of collapse, to having a completely new owner that nobody asked for who is handling things a bit differently from the previous one, and Tuchel has had his own personal problems too. This has all happened in 6 months. It's a lot, a transition that every club would struggle with and mistakes will be made. 

I think sacking the manager would just continue the cycle of chaos at this club. Also, who would be the one to look for the next manager? Boehly? He's learning about the game and can't possibly know who would be the right coach to bring in. Tuchel will stay, not just because I want him to stay, but because we need him to stay. The club is not in the position to be looking for a new manager right now.

I'm not at all for sacking Tuchel, right now, but feel he is a major culprit in the state of the on field product. No flexibility in his tactics nor team selection. 

 

I'm not at all confident the club hierarchy could recruit a manager of any quality right now, either. Stick with TT, for now, but f**k me...stick anyone other than Havertz up top, right now. 

Edited August 31, 20223 yr by ross91690

1 hour ago, icecoolguy22 said:

We aren't match fit. Every game we were running out of gas even before half time ( spurs game the odd exception). That was my fear before this mid week game, and turned out we played good 25 minutes and then collapsed . We can blame Tuchel all we wish, but sacking him now or this season will only make it worse. A new manager will bring another new system, which means players will adapt again, few ins and outs, and we do another reboot after just spent 200M. We had this kind of form slump in the past few seasons too, just have to work harder and get through it.

That is good point about the fitness. We have looked a bit off the pace ever since the pre-season games. However if that is the case why are so far behind many other teams in terms of fitness? That would be on the coaching staff surely?

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

We can all be reactionary, I have been plenty of times. One thing I don't think we should do is sack the manager. He messed up tonight, quite badly in my opinion, but I am tired of this cycle we are in. Tuchel has inherited a chaotic squad at a chaotic club. Sacking him would just add to the chaos, and it's something I really think needs to stop. If he was a bad coach that was completely out of his depth, then maybe I would think differently, but he's not a bad coach, he's a very good one. The club has gone from being on the brink of collapse, to having a completely new owner that nobody asked for who is handling things a bit differently from the previous one, and Tuchel has had his own personal problems too. This has all happened in 6 months. It's a lot, a transition that every club would struggle with and mistakes will be made. 

I think sacking the manager would just continue the cycle of chaos at this club. Also, who would be the one to look for the next manager? Boehly? He's learning about the game and can't possibly know who would be the right coach to bring in. Tuchel will stay, not just because I want him to stay, but because we need him to stay. The club is not in the position to be looking for a new manager right now.

I don't think Boehly should even consider a change of manager until he at least has a Director of Football appointed. At that point he should be able to lean on that resource to assess the status on the football side. That being said I'm concerned at some of the football decisions being made at the moment. I know we have injury issues but most of us could see that tonight's lineup were unlikely to fare well before even a ball was kicked.

3 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Tuchel f**ked up tonight. The players deserve some of the blame, but in his desperation to move away from the back 3, he's taken his eyes off the players available to him.

Can anybody here honestly say it is ever a good idea to play a back 4 with 3 over 30's? One of them a RB who can't play RB anymore because his legs have gone and another one that just looks lazy when defending. Then to protect that back 4, you have Jorginho, the last player in the world you want protecting the defence and Loftus-Cheek, a player who takes an age to make a decision on anything. No way was that team equiped to move to a back 4 formation today. Without James at RB, another younger CB (Fofana) and a DM with more physical attributes, we cannot touch the back 4 formation.

I think the back 4 has to do with a conversation Sterling had with Tuchel about us not been aggressive enough & creating chances enough, which he is right to be honest. The last 2 games where he has reverted to the back 4, Sterling has scored 3 goals. If he reverts to the back 5 and he stops scoring, the player will point back to the formation. So he has a problem; I reckon the back 4 will stay, he just needs to fine tune it.

I wouldn’t sack him though, especially when we spent so much in the window without a Sports Director’s input. Anyone coming in will be stuck with his signings. I would appoint a Sports Director as a priority, and give the manager at least till the Summer of 2024. Caveat will be any signings going forward will be made & or sanctioned by the sports director with a long term vision for the club 

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

We can all be reactionary, I have been plenty of times. One thing I don't think we should do is sack the manager. He messed up tonight, quite badly in my opinion, but I am tired of this cycle we are in. Tuchel has inherited a chaotic squad at a chaotic club. Sacking him would just add to the chaos, and it's something I really think needs to stop. If he was a bad coach that was completely out of his depth, then maybe I would think differently, but he's not a bad coach, he's a very good one. The club has gone from being on the brink of collapse, to having a completely new owner that nobody asked for who is handling things a bit differently from the previous one, and Tuchel has had his own personal problems too. This has all happened in 6 months. It's a lot, a transition that every club would struggle with and mistakes will be made. 

I think sacking the manager would just continue the cycle of chaos at this club. Also, who would be the one to look for the next manager? Boehly? He's learning about the game and can't possibly know who would be the right coach to bring in. Tuchel will stay, not just because I want him to stay, but because we need him to stay. The club is not in the position to be looking for a new manager right now.

Good points Scott. Thank you. 

I am very much looking forward to us having a director of football. I hope we ensure we hire the right person who has a long term vision for the club.

1 minute ago, ducavis said:

I think the back 4 has to do with a conversation Sterling had with Tuchel about us not been aggressive enough & creating chances enough, which he is right to be honest. The last 2 games where he has reverted to the back 4, Sterling has scored 3 goals. If he reverts to the back 5 and he stops scoring, the player will point back to the formation. So he has a problem; I reckon the back 4 will stay, he just needs to fine tune it.

I wouldn’t sack him though, especially when we spent so much in the window without a Sports Director’s input. Anyone coming in will be stuck with his signings. I would appoint a Sports Director as a priority, and give the manager at least till the Summer of 2024. Caveat will be any signings going forward will be made & or sanctioned by the sports director with a long term vision for the club 

If we are going to stick with a back 4 we will need to provide better protection than Jorgi can offer. 

If we don't sign someone our best option would be using Trev as a destroyer imo.

1 hour ago, PhilH930 said:

I didn't see todays game, but am not surprised.  Difficult time ahead, and performance wise always had a feeling this would be a season of two halves (pre and post world cup).  That said, we have some questions/topics to address:

• What players have actually improved under TT?
• I don't believe all the attackers are bad - Havertz, Pulisic, Werner, Mount, Lukaku, Broja, Ziyech - all starved of any real service
• TT's stubbornness is getting the better of him

All that said, lets look objectively. To me, this all started Nov 6 2021 with the 1-1 home draw to Burnley.  Since then our win % is 46%, and we lose 1 in 5.  More damning than that is post April, where our win % is now 40% (2 in 5), yet we lose 33% (1 in 3) - that is not a small sample (15 games).  This is not new, but a bigger pattern we've long been watching.  I agree with @axman2526 that I am not confident TT has the plan or methods to get us out of this rut.

These stats illustrate how the form has not just gone bad in recent games, but has deteriorated most noticeably over the last 15 games. I think at the time many of us were thinking that the poor form towards the end of last season could be somewhat attributed to the uncertain circumstances around the club at the time. However despite significant expenditure in the transfer market the form has only continued to deteriorate. Hoping Tuchel can turn this around soon, but I fully expect the pressure to build on him as long as the poor form continues. Also the new owners have invested heavily, mostly based on Tuchel's guidance. So they will undoubtedly hold him responsible if the investment doesn't deliver positive results.

May have to get another expensive RWB, no input from the right without James. Azpi is not going to cut it as a backup. The transfer window shut down will do us lots of good, either we get the players we need ( doubt it), or at least put a stop to the uncertainty and manager and players get on with training and playing.

10 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

May have to get another expensive RWB, no input from the right without James. Azpi is not going to cut it as a backup. The transfer window shut down will do us lots of good, either we get the players we need ( doubt it), or at least put a stop to the uncertainty and manager and players get on with training and playing.

Maybe in January but I don't see that happening now. RLC will likely be the backup option based on what we have seen so far this season but he is also injury prone. I hope that Reece gets played more in his best position once Fofana arrives (assuming he does). But you are right we cannot afford to see Reece injured again as we don't have adequate cover.

4 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

But what manager isn't having the team play terrible football when things are going wrong? From what I have seen in this game, fans will only accept a brand of football when they are winning. You can play the most attacking football in the world, but if you're not getting the results, nobody will care how pretty it is.

Sarri would disagree...

2 hours ago, ducavis said:

I think the back 4 has to do with a conversation Sterling had with Tuchel about us not been aggressive enough & creating chances enough, which he is right to be honest. The last 2 games where he has reverted to the back 4, Sterling has scored 3 goals. If he reverts to the back 5 and he stops scoring, the player will point back to the formation. So he has a problem; I reckon the back 4 will stay, he just needs to fine tune it.

 

There is no fine tuning though. 

You don't have to be genius to see the big difference between this:

Jorgi - Kova

Cucu - 3cb - James

And this

Jorgi - Kova 

Cucu - 2cb - James

With 1st configuration, our football slogan "No Kante no midfield" is not a problem because with 5 defender behind our midfield even though they are blown we have 5. In the 2nd configuration, there are only 4 and it is disaster waiting to happen. We have countless of example, heck even in the game that we won, I am not happy with our defending. 

 

 

Edited August 31, 20223 yr by Bob stark

5 hours ago, coco said:

I don't think its fair to use last seasons later poor form into this season, because of all that's happened last season, Russia, Roman, Chelsea not allowed to do business, lose key players due to the mess, in comes Todd with new vision, big cheque book, a new start, were 4 games in to that new start, played spuds off the park, then two terrible games where we looked a complete shambles, which it's fair to judge TT and perfectly acceptable to question tactics or whatever. but we would be a big dumbass of a club if got rid of him now. He must get at least all of this season, evaluate him again in May, that seems decent and fair to me. I understand fans getting pissed off with the crap we've been producing, but i bet you Tuchel is way more pissed of than we are, i expect him to make serious changes over the coming weeks. Lets wait and see hey ? 

I'm not sure if we are advocating sacking him now, well some might be, but it must be acknowledged that there are some disturbing signs appear.

Personally I think we are dressing up the Spurs game because of the obligatory Anthony Taylor mugging. Whilst we played well (against our arch rivals) we still had a paucity of efforts on their goal. We were not great against Everton and have had two appalling performances.  However in addition to that our performances for a long time now have been woeful with the occasional bright spot. We have been toothless in attack, fragile in defence and one dimensional in midfield. We seem to be either trying to shoe horn players into a system by playing them out of position or we struggle to maintain any system that is effective.  Recently it has become difficult to see any real pattern particularly in advanced positions and our set piece play in both boxes has deteriorated rapidly.

I get the point about new players bedding in but the overall system and pattern should be solid. We shouldn’t now be seeing Mount, Havertz, Ziyech etc misplacing passes to each other and misreading runs.

I am not saying he needs to go, definitely not, but there needs to be a lot of improvement in him and more importantly in his back room coaches on the training ground. This team seem to regularly be outrun and outfought in games lately. Fitness levels need to improve and the pace of our whole game needs to go up a couple of gears.

6 hours ago, axman2526 said:

There are a few of here who I have found to be very level headed, not reactionary and well thought out. I admit I am not so a fair amount of the time so I am genuinely interested in whether they think TT should be sacked, and what he should achieve this season not to be sacked.

@Mod @Valerie @CaitlinCFC @Munkworth @Scott Harris @just may I ask your opinions on this?

I’m just fed up with watching the same XI players looking like they’ve never met before. They’re just so boring to watch. He needs to change things up instead of just blindly playing the same players over and over. 

Been concerned about our progress under Tuchel since the Brentford match last season when we lost 4-1.

We've been (8 wins, 5 draws, 6 losses) since the Brentford match in all competitions. Up until the Brentford match, we'd only lost 9 matches in 79 in all competitions but now it's 6 in 19.

You could argue the rot started earlier after the Juventus (4-0 win) match when injuries crippled us, but I think it started a few matches after the sanctions were imposed against Roman.

I want to see how the new summer signings gel under him before making a judgment one way or another, but he needs to start stepping it up or it's going to fast deteriorate under him.

Since January 1, we've been the 6th best performing club in the Premier League behind Liverpool, Manchester City, Tottenham, Arsenal and Newcastle. At the moment, we look destined for Europa League football next season.

TT is on notice, but I wouldn't be calling for him to be sacked at this stage.

Edited August 31, 20223 yr by Jezz

Backing him at this stage, but he's on notice.

I want to see how he goes with our new summer signings for a period of time before making a clearer assessment on how he's performing.

We've been too inconsistent since the Brentford (4-1) loss last season, so he needs to step it up now. At this stage, we look destined to play Europa League football next season which isn't good enough for the calibre of this club.